Why no Mu^Zin?

[phloomp]

Restricting certain species from doing certain things removes possible content from the game without making the game any simpler. Therefore such restrictions should be avoided, unless they are needed to keep those species balanced.

I think preventing Ds and the undead species from worshipping the good gods is a bad restriction and should be removed.

Here are counterpoints that I anticipate:

• This is too big of a buff: This would definitely buff demonspawn and the undead species. The undead species could use a buff. Demonspawn are a bigger concern, since the good gods would really synergize with a great invocations aptitutde. But hill orcs (with the same invocations aptitude) aren't overpowered and demonspawn aren't crazy-good. I don't have a really knock-down response to this though.
• Flavour: Flavour could still be accomplished with message text. When joining e.g. Zin as a Ghoul, the message "Zin welcomes you!" can become "Zin holds its nose, but welcomes you anyway!" As a demonspawn of TSO with demonic guardian, maybe you get a message like "Your Daeva eyes the balrug warily" the first time Demonic Guardian kicks in while you have a divine warrior. I'm sure there are other flavour problems, but I think they could be solved similarly.

[Tiktacy]

I really like this idea. I normally just settle for a thanks, but I just wanted to chime in to say that I think this would make undead species a lot more enjoyable. I consistently find myself playing as a vampire or Ghoul and thinking "Hmm, maybe I should try Ely/TSO/Zin this game?" and then quickly realize that its impossible and just feel kind of disappointed. It really isn't that big of a stretch flavor wise either.

Spoiler: show

I think maybe adding some penalty for undead species following good gods might be cool too. Maybe add a line saying "Transgression will not be forgiven easily..." then make it so undead species recieve penance for leaving good gods regardless of what god they follow after.

(spoilered because its a little off topic, but feel free to respond as a side note)

[HardboiledGargoyle]

I don't love this idea. I think it sounds more fun than reality, and the code is littered with special cases that would have to be updated (eg orc speech, holding a weapon you TSO-brand).

I'm not sure about littered special cases. You can force a race-god combo in wiz-mode. The only oddities I noticed were: you can holy-brand a held weapon and use it, but you cannot rewield it after unwielding, and praying to fedhas doesn't hurt you if you're a ghoul. Invoking cleansing flame or sanctuary hurts you as expected, though TSO/Zin can save your life from that damage, since they can save your life from any damage.

[duvessa]

Good gods have been technically compatible with undead for ages, there are online wins with them thanks to a couple of bugs across the years. The real concerns are the flavour and that it constrains future changes to good gods (e.g. maybe you want to bring back reverse piety decay, or no piety cost pacification). I don't see either of these as a problem personally, but there are a lot of people attached to the flavour of good gods rejecting undead/ds.

[kuniqs]

For undead/demonspawn you'd have to:
- disable TSO weapon branding
- make them suffer effects of Recite and Sanctuary's holy word
- disallow cannibalism for ghouls... vampires can have specific blood groups disallowed

...to be consistent

BTW allow gargoyles of Yredelemnul and undead of Fedhas

[HardboiledGargoyle]

- make them suffer effects of Recite

not necessary: Zin accepts mutant followers, and their anti-chaos recitations don't hurt them. Enforced hypocrisy

Sanctuary's holy word

already happens

- disallow cannibalism for ghouls

already happens: a ghoul of zin gets penance for butchering (desecrating!) the corpse of another ghoul. awww...

vampires can have specific blood groups disallowed

monster vampires don't leave corpses when killed, but they're officially humans-turned-vampire, so I guess zin could give penance for bottling humans?

[Reptisaurus]

Yeah, absolutely. Hear, hear.

Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't this just eliminating (potentially) fun gameplay options for flavor reasons?

Also, are ghoul transmuters not allowed? I haven't checked in a couple versions.

[edgefigaro]

You can train transmutations as a ghoul (stoneskin, irridate, sticks to snakes). You cannot change shape using transmutations.

Ghouls, interestingly enough, are amazing irridate casters if you find Orange Crystal Plate, like I did in this run.

[Reptisaurus]

Ok. I don't see the reason for that at all. I get the good God/Fedhas thing thematically on undead, but I don't see the logic on the no shape changing thing at all. Esepcially considering Vampires.

[pubby]

Undead leaving a good god should suffer wrath regardless of whether they join an evil god or not.

[Quazifuji]

Undead leaving a good god should suffer wrath regardless of whether they join an evil god or not.

The problem with special cases like this is that they complicate things.

Personally, I agree with the sentiment that banning undead and demonspawn from worshipping good gods is clearly a case of removing fun options solely in the name of flavor, something that this game's design generally leads heavily against. So I am fully in favor of coming up with a flavor excuse about them being happy to help you overcome your evil nature or whatever to add more fun gameplay options to the game.

I'm wary about the special cases people are suggesting. I don't think undead or demonspawn should have to worry about getting hurt by their own holy fire or recite, because I personally find that unintuitive. I don't like "they can worship good gods, but get a bunch of downsides or get hurt by their own powers." Either they should be able to worship good gods, or not. "Yes, but..." is too complicated.

Although I don't mind undead and demonspawn not being allowed to use holy weapons under TSO, because that's already the case and consistent with things like undead not being able to berserk under Trog (that said, I wouldn't object if they could wield holy weapons as long as they worshipped TSO either).

[grisamentum]

monster vampires don't leave corpses when killed, but they're officially humans-turned-vampire, so I guess zin could give penance for bottling humans?

I thought Zin just hated blood-drinking as a separate ban from cannibalism.

[grisamentum]

- make them suffer effects of Recite

not necessary: Zin accepts mutant followers, and their anti-chaos recitations don't hurt them. Enforced hypocrisy

Sanctuary's holy word

already happens

- disallow cannibalism for ghouls

already happens: a ghoul of zin gets penance for butchering (desecrating!) the corpse of another ghoul. awww...

vampires can have specific blood groups disallowed

monster vampires don't leave corpses when killed, but they're officially humans-turned-vampire, so I guess zin could give penance for bottling humans?

I'm wary about the special cases people are suggesting. I don't think undead or demonspawn should have to worry about getting hurt by their own holy fire or recite, because I personally find that unintuitive. I don't like "they can worship good gods, but get a bunch of downsides or get hurt by their own powers." Either they should be able to worship good gods, or not. "Yes, but..." is too complicated.

Although I don't mind undead and demonspawn not being allowed to use holy weapons under TSO, because that's already the case and consistent with things like undead not being able to berserk under Trog (that said, I wouldn't object if they could wield holy weapons as long as they worshipped TSO either).

Is that really it?

Doesn't Zin hate blood-drinking (and is bottling sentients different from butchering sentients?) and shapeshifting? If vampires shouldn't worry about getting hurt by their own holy fire, is it "unintuitive" that a god that hates shapeshifting includes your own innate shapeshifting ability in that?

As of now, does a Ds mutating on levelup count as intentionally mutating yourself and/or can Zin block it? Or are Ds mutations special-cased? Seems like we're not avoiding special cases if there's no interaction between "this species mutates" and "this god blocks mutations." As a matter of programming of course they are in different categories, but from the player's perspective, why are they different? (bikeshedding-> maybe don't call them "mutations"). But either way, what if the Ds "mutations" are Black Mark, Foul Stench, Demonic Guardian? You don't get in trouble for summoning demons or using draining debuffs because they're "passive"? I don't think it's just "flavor" that this feels dumb.

[WingedEspeon]

As of now, does a Ds mutating on levelup count as intentionally mutating yourself and/or can Zin block it? Or are Ds mutations special-cased?

Ds mutations are not blocked by rMut ( as it is in 0.17 or in the fixedarts that it remains on). The levels that you gain them at are generated at character creation and they behave consistently with things like Dr gaining a color at level 7, certain draconians getting additional power at XL 14, vinestalkers getting improvments to their fangs and regen, nagas gaining constriction, tengues gaining flight, and any I may have missed. (They are slightly different from draconians gaining a color at level 7 in that the color is generated when you level up and the mutations are pregenerated, but you will never notice this outside of savescumming/using the debbuging -seed option.) Zin does not block other species gaining these effects nor does he give penance for them so precedents for the interaction are already in place.

[Croases]

While we're at it, let's allow every species to worship Beogh too, since unlike Ds/Zin or holy damage/undead interactions, there's virtually nothing preventing that from happening.

[grisamentum]

As of now, does a Ds mutating on levelup count as intentionally mutating yourself and/or can Zin block it? Or are Ds mutations special-cased?

Ds mutations are not blocked by rMut ( as it is in 0.17 or in the fixedarts that it remains on). The levels that you gain them at are generated at character creation and they behave consistently with things like Dr gaining a color at level 7, certain draconians getting additional power at XL 14, vinestalkers getting improvments to their fangs and regen, nagas gaining constriction, tengues gaining flight, and any I may have missed. (They are slightly different from draconians gaining a color at level 7 in that the color is generated when you level up and the mutations are pregenerated, but you will never notice this outside of savescumming/using the debbuging -seed option.) Zin does not block other species gaining these effects nor does he give penance for them so precedents for the interaction are already in place.

That's a good point. I hadn't thought of it because mentally I was thinking of Ds mutations as "mutations" while not thinking of innate abilities that improve as mutations. That's a flavor-based error on my part.

Doesn't/didn't TSO suppress Poison Stinger mutations to prevent players from inadvertently using poison attacks in melee, while not blocking spit poison, but incurring penance on its use? So it seems the precedent is that good gods will hate use of an ability they would hate anyway (like shapeshifting as a vampire), and will block passive use of an ability they should hate. So good gods would suppress Demonic Guardian and Black Mark (and Foul Stench?) and bat form for vampires, and vampires would be expected to play the game without drinking blood (or bottling sentient corpses), and passive drinking from attacks would be suppressed. It would be interesting.

[Tiktacy]

While we're at it, let's allow every species to worship Beogh too, since unlike Ds/Zin or holy damage/undead interactions, there's virtually nothing preventing that from happening.

Spoiler: show

dpeg says hi

[archaeo]

We just had a Beogh thread, and I doubt "let undead/demonic species worship good gods" is going to get much more dev support, honestly.

In any case, if you're really curious about what you're missing, wizmode doesn't care what god your mummy worships. I suspect that we're not missing much.

[Tiktacy]

We just had a Beogh thread, and I doubt "let undead/demonic species worship good gods" is going to get much more dev support, honestly.

In any case, if you're really curious about what you're missing, wizmode doesn't care what god your mummy worships. I suspect that we're not missing much.

Beogh can't have other followers because A) He is literally ONLY in the game because of well developed flavor and his fanbase(based on his flavor). and B) As a result of his flavor being his main attraction, anything that could potentially detract from his(or change his) flavor is under no circumstances acceptable even if it would improve him as a whole. At least, thats the impression I've gotten from all the beogh threads I've read.

Good gods are designed with the intention of being a real part of the game that follows its design goals, so its not fair to compare the two.

[duvessa]

Letting undead and demonspawn worship Elyvilon at least actually had support from some active devs in the past, the logic being that if Ely is willing to heal them, it makes sense for Ely to accept them as worshippers.