Felid Reform

[agentgt]

I actually think felids are pretty strong now. They are a pretty easy 3-6 rune win. In some ways I think they are even stronger than Octopodes for 3-6 rune if they are lucky with getting/finding the right spells.

Thus it shocks me that people bitch more than ever on felids. Lets review recent changes that make felid rather decent:

1. Felids can now stab.
2. Felids can use wands.
3. There is a new god that promotes stealthy game play (Dith).
4. Hexes now show percentage of success.

BTW I won felid before those changes as my first win... its a lot easier now.

If you think felid is too hard to be fun, or don't like stealthy play... well than go play your GrBe and press tab a bunch.

If I would change anything about felid I would either add a cloak or hat slot or give them rCorr (also adding more rcorr probability to said slots). The recent corrosion changes are pretty damn rough on felid. I would love if there was a warp claws spell (ie warp weapon) but I suppose disjunction does that.

The two biggest problem I have with felid is if you don't find any books (particularly hexes and tmut) your fairly screwed and you do end up with rather annoying kite play. This is exacerbated if you get pois branch like Snake or Spider with no rpois (I usually end up switching to zin when this shit happens) . The other problem is extended. Extended is rough with out the right spells but less so the previous problem.

If people want to remove the lives from felid than just give the more HP. A 10% - 20% increase HP in felid would make felid one of the strongest species.

An easy felid strategy for those that have problems with felid is to pick a hex background and then pick dith as a god. That will easily get you a three rune with a few tries.

[Sandman25]

By the way if people want to see how more HP Fe would be played, they can try Wuldraste god on berotato, it gives passive Robust 3 at high piety.

[Sandman25]

I am playing FeVM with Robust 2 (from Wuldraste), it is too easy compared to Deep Elves (who have about the same HP) and Fe even has extra lives, I don't think we should add HP.

[Grudge]

These are the exact changes I am proposing for Felids, why they should be changed like that, and the exact code I changed.

1. Give Felids -20% HP instead of -40%. This change makes Felids less dependent on kiting. Some may say that it is fine if Felids have to kite, but I have seen examples of the extreme tediousness, such as spending 50+ turns trying to confuse a death yak. You may argue that this scenario is one in which you should run away, but if there is a band of death yaks wandering the level, you are going to run into them a lot if you don't kill them, and you might run into them when you are fighting something else dangerous, like a hydra.

  Code:

     "Fe",
     "Felid", "Feline", "Cat",
     SPF_NONE,
-    -1, -4, 1,
+    -1, -2, 1,

2. Remove fast and slow metabolism from Felids. With the HP change, Felids no longer need to kite everything, and they can cease to be fast. This change is mostly to balance the HP increase. Slow metabolism does not seem to have a clear reason for being on Felids at all, and removing it will again help balance the HP change.

  Code:

-    { { MUT_CARNIVOROUS, 3, 1 }, { MUT_FAST, 1, 1 }, { MUT_FANGS, 3, 1 },
-      { MUT_SHAGGY_FUR, 1, 1 }, { MUT_ACUTE_VISION, 1, 1 }, { MUT_PAWS, 1, 1 },
-      { MUT_SLOW_METABOLISM, 1, 1 }, { MUT_CLAWS, 1, 1 },
+    { { MUT_CARNIVOROUS, 3, 1 }, { MUT_FANGS, 3, 1 },
+      { MUT_SHAGGY_FUR, 1, 1 }, { MUT_ACUTE_VISION, 1, 1 },
+      { MUT_PAWS, 1, 1 }, { MUT_CLAWS, 1, 1 },


3. Make Felids gain an extra life every seven levels, still starting at level 3. The reduced chance of extra lives gives a total of four lives over the course of the game. If Felids have more HP, they will die considerably less. It logically follows that if they die less, they should be able to revive less times.

  Code:

     if (lev < you.attribute[ATTR_LIFE_GAINED] - 2)
         return false;
 
-    return you.lives + you.deaths < (lev - 1) / 3;
+    return you.lives + you.deaths < (lev +3) / 7;
 }


[Sandman25]

I've just won a Fe with Robust 3, it was ridiculously safe with 264 HP (Dragon Form) and 2 extra lives. Please don't change Felids!

Edit. I felt like am playing a High Elf.

[Sandman25]

By the way, why don't you want to "fix" Sp by making kiting harder? It has higher speed, can use Polearms/Throwing/launchers, does not have extra lives to risk and has only 10% more HP than Fe.
Surprisingly Sp is one of the easiest species, I am sure it can take a nerf and still be ok.

[and into]

I'd maybe like to see jump attack come back just for felids (not the boots), but revert the change that let Felids use wands....

But anyway, I don't think Felids are actually improved by any of these proposed changes, since it actually makes them less distinctive as a species. The whole point of the species is, as far as I can tell, "terrible HP, terrible AC, but you are a little faster than average, and you get extra lives." There is a little overlap with spriggans there, but the (even) lower HP and AC, and the lower speed, compensated with extra lives, is enough to give cats a distinct niche.

[Sprucery]

I'd maybe like to see jump attack come back just for felids (not the boots), but revert the change that let Felids use wands....

Seconded.

[dowan]

I'd maybe like to see jump attack come back just for felids (not the boots), but revert the change that let Felids use wands....

But anyway, I don't think Felids are actually improved by any of these proposed changes, since it actually makes them less distinctive as a species. The whole point of the species is, as far as I can tell, "terrible HP, terrible AC, but you are a little faster than average, and you get extra lives." There is a little overlap with spriggans there, but the (even) lower HP and AC, and the lower speed, compensated with extra lives, is enough to give cats a distinct niche.

Well, you're leaving out their main thing, which is no armor or weapons. The low HP, and multiple lives are pretty minor compared to no equipment, which is what actually makes them very distinct from any other race.

[archaeo]

Well, you're leaving out their main thing, which is no armor or weapons. The low HP, and multiple lives are pretty minor compared to no equipment, which is what actually makes them very distinct from any other race.

I'm pretty sure being able to die and still win the game is more distinct than equipment restrictions.

I'm with and into, insofar as I think jump was cool even if I understand why gamma removed it, and I don't think felids really need any other reform.

[Wahaha]

Spriggans have armor and weapon restrictions. Not the same as no armor and no weapons, but I think if felids had no extra lives and more hp they would be too similar to Sp.

[dowan]

Well, you're leaving out their main thing, which is no armor or weapons. The low HP, and multiple lives are pretty minor compared to no equipment, which is what actually makes them very distinct from any other race.

I'm pretty sure being able to die and still win the game is more distinct than equipment restrictions.

I'm with and into, insofar as I think jump was cool even if I understand why gamma removed it, and I don't think felids really need any other reform.

Being able to die and still win the game is a minor gimmick that has no actual impact on how the race is played, it's just a thing that happens to you instead of dying, which you still try as hard as possible to avoid, just like every other race. Having no equipment majorly changes how the race is played compared to other races, who have to choose between different types of weapons and armors. Felids have no equipment choices whatsoever, leading to very different game play. That is their defining feature.

I do think they should get their jump back, if things just not being that good was a reason to remove them, why do we still have clubs, rapiers, and alistair's intoxication?

[Pereza0]

I really hate extra lives.
I hate lives being another thing to manage. It doesn't feel right.
I hate, for example, that sometimes it won't feel right to use a strategic consumable to survive because I might die anyway and want to use it on the following life.
But removing them would also be very problematic (SPRIGGANS)

So I propose something terrible and evil - but IMO pretty good.
Lives are no longer deterministic. When you are "killed" there is always a chance you might actually die there, the exact probability shifts with the circumstances (dying repeatedly means the chance of not reviving grows and grows - getting XP without dying improves your chances). I think it is a better system that lives. It is not something you can manage or weight or compare to a scroll of blink. It also doesn't have to be tied to character level anymore (you just get better chances with more XP, no specific breakpoints)

[Sprucery]

Being able to die and still win the game is a minor gimmick that has no actual impact on how the race is played, it's just a thing that happens to you instead of dying, which you still try as hard as possible to avoid, just like every other race.

Not completely, though. You can rush for a rune in Pan or Hell and it's enough if you manage to pick it up before dying, if you have an extra life :)

[archaeo]

Being able to die and still win the game is a minor gimmick that has no actual impact on how the race is played, it's just a thing that happens to you instead of dying, which you still try as hard as possible to avoid, just like every other race. Having no equipment majorly changes how the race is played compared to other races, who have to choose between different types of weapons and armors. Felids have no equipment choices whatsoever, leading to very different game play. That is their defining feature.

I literally can't imagine how you think this is true. Being able to die and still win the game is incredibly, powerfully different. I will totally concede that equipment restrictions are also defining, but it doesn't really change the fact that having more than one life in a roguelike is pretty notable. It also absolutely changes how you play, give that you can die and continue playing. That single fact alone already makes felids one of the stronger races, if you're willing to deal with the annoyance of having tiny HP.

I do think they should get their jump back, if things just not being that good was a reason to remove them, why do we still have clubs, rapiers, and alistair's intoxication?

I linked the removal reason above; you're free to ask gammafunk if you feel like you need more explanation. From what I understood, the problem was mainly that the interface wasn't terribly good, it scaled kind of weirdly, and that felids had enough gimmicks to be going on with.

The other things you mention are different, though we could totally remove alistair's and no one would notice if there wasn't a commit about it.

[agentgt]

I just recently high scored FeCK and it was hardly tedious (69k 15 rune) and required little if any kitting:

http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 045215.txt

One of the most interesting things with felid is that Xom is actually one of the best early game gods.
Its a terrible idea for streaking (since there is an equally good chance you will get screwed by xom) but when Xom plays nice it works out really well and is rather fun since its not the end of the world if he kills you. You can laugh with Xom when you die

[linear]

Felid is the only race I haven't played besides halfling. Every skill Felid is good at I could do with the more survivable Spriggan. For engorged evoc I would use Kobold, and for unarmed Troll. I don't see a fun playstyle for Felid that is worth the hassle of their fragility.

I think any positive change to Felid should push them away from Spriggans. Here's what comes to mind:
1. Change all the spell school aptitudes to +1 so that Felids are ... edit: physically vulnerable but magically more versatile than any species other than Deep Elf
2. Reduce Transmutations for Spriggan and Merfolk to 1 and give Felids 3-4 so that they have a niche.
3. edit: Reduce Felid Hexes and Charms (which Spriggans are good at) and increase Felid Summonings and Necromancy (which Spriggans are bad at).

You could add unique racial abilities such as the jump attack, blink mutation, confusing touch or passwall or cTele that costs breath or hunger, etc. But I would still choose Spriggan as long as the aptitudes are so similar.

[Sandman25]

Felid is the only race I haven't played besides halfling. Every skill Felid is good at I could do with the more survivable Spriggan. For engorged evoc I would use Kobold, and for unarmed Troll. I don't see a fun playstyle for Felid that is worth the hassle of their fragility.

Try Confusing Touch. Stabbing with Fe UC is as effective as dagger, it's fun to use the spell and then just attack target killing it with 2 attacks. No weapon switching, no casting confuse, no kiting.

[linear]

Felid is the only race I haven't played besides halfling. Every skill Felid is good at I could do with the more survivable Spriggan. For engorged evoc I would use Kobold, and for unarmed Troll. I don't see a fun playstyle for Felid that is worth the hassle of their fragility.

Try Confusing Touch. Stabbing with Fe UC is as effective as dagger, it's fun to use the spell and then just attack target killing it with 2 attacks. No weapon switching, no casting confuse, no kiting.

I used Confusing Touch with a Troll and it was great. Felids would have a stealthier approach and much better aptitudes, though.

[dowan]

The problem with confusing touch is it rarely exists, so it's a little silly to try to plan a build around it.

[Sandman25]

The problem with confusing touch is it rarely exists, so it's a little silly to try to plan a build around it.

I was answering "I don't see a fun playstyle for Felid that is worth the hassle of their fragility.". Such playstyle does exist, not on D1 of course.

[partial]

drop the hp penalty to -30 and call it a day