Tomb Titivator
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Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Tomb Titivator
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Dungeon Master
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and into wrote:The main problem with the Abyss is that you can be forcibly sent there on characters for whom it is not dangerous (or, at least, for whom the abyss is of comparable or less danger, on average, compared to wherever the character was exploring before being banished). By contrast, when you get Abyssed early, it might cause a death that one finds frustrating, but it tends not to be a dull experience.
Banishment — should take severity/power of the banishment source into account: early banishment (distortion weapon on D:4) should send characters to Abyss:1, Elf:3 banishment to Abyss:3. Can either use absdepth of the banishment source, or player XL, or banisher HD, or perhaps another scale. [Rationale: Abyss:1 is an interesting challenge for early game, but falls flat later on; the Abyss levels work well to distinguish between escape and rune hunt; the only missing piece is sending different characters to different levels).
Ziggurat Zagger
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and into wrote:The main problem with the Abyss is that you can be forcibly sent there on characters for whom it is not dangerous
Ziggurat Zagger
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dpeg wrote:I agree. In my experience, early banishments are exciting. Granted, you can die easily, but that's alright for me, as long as it is fun. (Fun subjective etc.) I know that some players say it is boring/tedious simply because you have to play more slowly, but at least my playing style is slow enough that this has never been the case for me.and into wrote:The main problem with the Abyss is that you can be forcibly sent there on characters for whom it is not dangerous (or, at least, for whom the abyss is of comparable or less danger, on average, compared to wherever the character was exploring before being banished). By contrast, when you get Abyssed early, it might cause a death that one finds frustrating, but it tends not to be a dull experience.
As and into says, there is a point in the game where banishment is much less exciting: you can deal with most stuff Abyss:1 throws at you, and it becomes a chore. (Or weaker souls may be inclined to traverse the Abyss for loot!) This is not good, but I think all the ingredients for a solution are already there. From the 0.17 release plan:
- Code:
Banishment — should take severity/power of the banishment source into account: early banishment (distortion weapon on D:4) should send characters to Abyss:1, Elf:3 banishment to Abyss:3. Can either use absdepth of the banishment source, or player XL, or banisher HD, or perhaps another scale. [Rationale: Abyss:1 is an interesting challenge for early game, but falls flat later on; the Abyss levels work well to distinguish between escape and rune hunt; the only missing piece is sending different characters to different levels).
I will try hard to come up with some kind of formula -- the main question is what parameter to use. Input welcome! (Sorry to OP for being somewhat off-topic here.)
Halls Hopper
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dpeg wrote:
- Code:
Banishment — should take severity/power of the banishment source into account: early banishment (distortion weapon on D:4) should send characters to Abyss:1, Elf:3 banishment to Abyss:3. Can either use absdepth of the banishment source, or player XL, or banisher HD, or perhaps another scale. [Rationale: Abyss:1 is an interesting challenge for early game, but falls flat later on; the Abyss levels work well to distinguish between escape and rune hunt; the only missing piece is sending different characters to different levels).
Dungeon Master
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Halls Hopper
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Swamp Slogger
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lessens wrote:... it's optimal to carry a tele ring through the entire game for the sole purpose of making Abyss survivable.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Mines Malingerer
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Halls Hopper
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Rast wrote:What's the rationale for that? It made them useable?
Vaults Vanquisher
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XuaXua wrote:If you carry the Abyssal Rune, you can no longer get banished to the Abyss via unintentional (Zot/distortion/spell effects) means.
Self-banishment (Lugonu) or deliberate portal travelers (generally from Pandemonium) do not count.
Crypt Cleanser
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lessens wrote:Rast wrote:What's the rationale for that? It made them useable?
Probably what I said, it was a stupid no-brainer, they're still really useful e.g. if you're speedrunning. I don't really mind it being disabled in the Abyss at all.
Wahaha wrote:lessens wrote:Rast wrote:What's the rationale for that? It made them useable?
Probably what I said, it was a stupid no-brainer, they're still really useful e.g. if you're speedrunning. I don't really mind it being disabled in the Abyss at all.
By that logic shouldn't rC be disabled in Cocytus? Because it's a no-brainer. And it's still useful elsewhere so it's ok. Why don't we disable rings of rF when fighting orbs of fire, there's clearly no decision to be made there. Also I don't know why boots of running still exist, since they're a no-brainer everywhere
Halls Hopper
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Wahaha wrote:By that logic shouldn't rC be disabled in Cocytus? Because it's a no-brainer. And it's still useful elsewhere so it's ok. Why don't we disable rings of rF when fighting orbs of fire, there's clearly no decision to be made there. Also I don't know why boots of running still exist, since they're a no-brainer everywhere and having good items in the game is terrible. I don't know why ring of tele was disabled but that couldn't be the reason (well it could be and I wouldn't be too surprised, which is a sad thought). There better be a good reason for disabling it because hey, it's OK if items are useful.
Crypt Cleanser
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duvessa wrote:I'm pretty sure these are all acknowledged as problems by much of the devteam
lessens wrote:.
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Pollen_Golem wrote:How about Abyss remains as is, but sources of banishment are made easier to identify and escape?
E.G. distortion weapons have a small halo, banishment spells have a long delay or must travel distance like an orb, etc...
Then enemies can be made to spam banishment at earlier levels, for more excitement with less frustration.
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