Elyvilon and cleaving next to neutral monsters

[ManMan]

Not too long ago I had a HOHe that was frequently under Elyvilon penance because I was tabbing through a fight after pacifying an enemy. I suggest for there to be a warning when cleaving next to a pacified enemy, similar to when the player attempts to attack a neutral monster directly. This warning is especially important because arguably the two best healer races - HO and DD - both have positive axes aptitudes.

Oh, and another suggestion: Minotaurs should not reflexively headbutt neutral monsters when worshipping Elyvilon, since this makes an ofherwise fun, decent god annoying to play as a Mi. I know that the flavour of the headbutt suggests that they would do it anyway, but gameplay trumps flavour, or at least that's the direction in which Crawl has been going.

Edit: The original title was too long and got cut off, so I changed it.

[jejorda2]

If you can cleave around allies and still hit enemies, you should be able to cleave around neutrals.

Alternately, devs could introduce the ability to e[v]oke an axe to do a single target attack. I can't think of other cases when this would be useful. Maybe when a plant is improving your position?

[XuaXua]

If you can cleave around allies and still hit enemies, you should be able to cleave around neutrals.

Alternately, devs could introduce the ability to e[v]oke an axe to do a single target attack. I can't think of other cases when this would be useful.

Surrounded by weak enemies with multiple dangerous enemies and want to just let one dangerous one in at a time? Not an optimal scenario to begin with.

[Hurkyl]

Surrounded by weak enemies with multiple dangerous enemies and want to just let one dangerous one in at a time? Not an optimal scenario to begin with.

Make the axe vampiric and it sounds like a good idea to leave a few chunks of free HP lying around you for when you need it.

That's probably a good reason not to make this change.

[and into]

I don't like using axes very much, personally, and one reason is because positioning yourself so that weak melee enemies block more dangerous enemies is often a very helpful tactic. But it would be a very bad idea to let you evoke axes for a single-target attack. What's good about the design of axes is that they do their special thing (cleaving) without any fuss about evoking. The fact that they always cleave means that you must take that into account when using axes, which is the whole point of having something like cleaving in the game to begin with—to differentiate weapons.

This sounds more like a bug to me. Can't say for sure, as I'm not a dev, but I really doubt that it is intended behavior that minotaurs can headbutt their way into penance or that axe-users would strike neutral creatures (in general, but especially under Ely).

[Sar]

I've reported it wrt Lugonu's pseudo-summons and I've been told it's not a bug.

[crate]

imo the real bug is that you can still pacify things, or alternatively that when you pacify things they still exist

(but yes I think this is the "desired" behaviour)

[Quazifuji]

I played a HOHe with axes not too long ago and could have sworn I got a warning when my cleave was going to hit a pacified monster. I remember spending a lot of time repositioning to avoid cleaving enemies, but I don't remember ever getting penance when I forgot to. That said, the repositioning was really annoying, and I'd definitely be in favor of cleaving ignoring neutral monsters, or at least pacified ones (which, as I state below, I think should be treated as friendly neutrals like Jiyva slimes).

imo the real bug is that you can still pacify things, or alternatively that when you pacify things they still exist

(but yes I think this is the "desired" behaviour)

Pacified monsters not instantly disappearing does have some neat utility in some situations (and is more flavorful for people who care), but I think at the very least pacified monsters should work like Jiyva slimes as "friendly neutral" monsters that you can switch places with and that don't attack you if you get in their way. Using pacified monsters to block a hallway and maybe attack enemies a few times or give you time to run away is an interesting mechanic. Having to back out of a hallway to let a pacified monster through or wait for some enemies to kill it when it's too weak to fight back effectively is not. I think I'd still probably find Ely more tedious than fun with this change, but it would still go a long way.

[daggaz]

Could make it so that the pacified monster immediately walks away, thru both players and monsters, and despawns once it gets out of sight.

"The hobgoblin walks peacefully away, determined to start a new life on the surface, away from the violent chaos of the dungeon."

[Sar]

The adder slithers peacefully away, determined to start a new life on the surface, away from the violent chaos of the dungeon.

[johlstei]

The dire elephant trundles peacefully away

[Quazifuji]

Could make it so that the pacified monster immediately walks away, thru both players and monsters, and despawns once it gets out of sight.

"The hobgoblin walks peacefully away, determined to start a new life on the surface, away from the violent chaos of the dungeon."

That preserves the flavor but removes the tactic of deliberately using pacified monsters to block a hallway.

[duvessa]

That preserves the flavor but removes the tactic of deliberately using pacified monsters to block a hallway.

That's literally the point of the change.

[Quazifuji]

That preserves the flavor but removes the tactic of deliberately using pacified monsters to block a hallway.

That's literally the point of the change.

I wasn't sure if using pacified monsters tactically was a good thing or not (last time this came up I remember some people saying they liked it). I thought the main point of the change was so that pacified monsters didn't get in your way.

[crate]

The fact that "pacified" monsters are actually bloodthirsty killers that will viciously turn on their friends and family would seem to be a bit of a weird thing to keep in crawl, so I would argue that using them tactically is not a good thing from a flavour standpoint, if nothing else.

[nilsbloodaxe]

The fact that "pacified" monsters are actually bloodthirsty killers that will viciously turn on their friends and family would seem to be a bit of a weird thing to keep in crawl, so I would argue that using them tactically is not a good thing from a flavour standpoint, if nothing else.

I don't see a problem (from a flavor standpoint, which means little to me, so take it for what it is worth) with using them tactically if they could just block off non-pacified enemies and could not attack, because that might fit the peace flavor (they are blocking combat).

[xentronium]

"The hobgoblin walks peacefully away, determined to start a new life on the surface, away from the violent chaos of the dungeon."

The hobgoblin wants to go home and rethink its life.