Should Transmutation forms be so reliant on Unarmed Combat?

[XuaXua]

It feels like when you invest in Transmutations, to get the most out of any transformation form, you need skill in Unarmed Combat. This feels especially so now that beneficial aspects of certain transformations (the prior-version neutering of Spider Form, for example) have been removed.

Is this "skill sink" reliance on Unarmed Combat for the majority of Transmutation spells real or imagined? Should it be addressed from a design sense?


While this post probably qualifies for Crawl Bingo, I ask this in all seriousness, so please no Yiufing.

[ackack]

I'd say so. I get the impression that there's some desire to change this (e.g. Irradiate.) (EDIT: There are a few other spells that don't need UC: Alistair's, Petrify, Sticks to Snakes. Sticks to Snakes sees use but I don't think the others get used a ton.)

Personally, I've always enjoyed forms + UC a lot and think it's one of the more fun types of character, so I'd be sad to see much change to those.

[XuaXua]

There are a few other spells that don't need UC: Alistair's, Petrify, Sticks to Snakes. Sticks to Snakes sees use but I don't think the others get used a ton.) .

I changed the question to be Forms-specific.

Stoneskin and Beastly Appendage (which I consider to be forms, of a kind) are not UC-reliant, as one is purely defensive and the other relies on non-UC combat. Alistairs, Petrify and Liquefaction are all dual-schooled, I believe (Poison, Earth, Earth, respectively?).

[ackack]

There were some others I was missing: Leda's, Stoneskin, Passwall, Ignite Poison, Necromutation (at least I think most would agree here.) So yeah, lots of Tm spells that don't have anything to do with UC, technically. Still, most of those spells are very niche, and the Tm book is obviously very heavily slanted toward UC.

[tasonir]

Blade hands is probably the most generally long term useful transmutation, and that's definitely unarmed combat no questions asked. I generally pretend dragon form doesn't exist, but it'd also fall into this camp (but just use blade hands instead).

It's perfectly reasonable to use statue form with a weapon, with the classic example being an Ogre with a GSC and statue form. But I'd still say you're probably going to be using unarmed. It's the best option, outside of maybe something like a merfolk with a polearm - good for when you don't want to walk slowly that final space. Octopodes might want statue form for AC only reasons and be happy using weapons/shield in it, but I'd still say they should go unarmed.

I'm not really sure if you've carefully defined "linked" in this sense. Almost all skills are linked in some way or another. I'd say that there is a strong synergy between transmutations and unarmed. Transmutations tend to include a large bonus to unarmed damage as part of the spell. And transmutations are *not* some of the strongest spells in the game, they're fairly narrowly focused. If you take a situational not super amazing spell and ignore one of the biggest perks, you're left with a rather questionable spell. That said, I'm still a huge fan of transmutations when you do mold your overall character to take advantage of all the forms offer.

The points above about stoneskin/beastly etc being unrelated to unarmed are of course correct, they just aren't really what I'd consider the main spells of the school. Necromutation is definitely not dependent on UC, although I did once upon a time make a melee unarmed lich (this was a poor strategic choice but I was new).

[XuaXua]

I'm not really sure if you've carefully defined "linked" in this sense.

While you were crafting your response, I edited the title and OP into a proper question.

I assume "Hydra Form" is too new to consider in your response, or does that not synergize with UC?

[and into]

I think it is fine that most forms are closely linked with UC. What I would like to see are some improvements and/or additions to non-form transmutation spells. (I'm looking forward to trying out the new irradiate spell, haven't got the chance yet).

Somewhat related: a while ago I posted an idea for a Transmutations-focused non-"hybrid" background. A slightly updated version of that idea is below in spoiler tags if you are interested. [EDIT: Okay moving the proposed new background to a separate thread. Carry on!]

[tasonir]

I've heard of hydra form but I haven't played around with it much (ie, I don't think I've ever cast it) so I can't really say. I'm assuming the damage is still based on UC, and that you can't wield a weapon like a sword and cleave with it? Wouldn't really make sense. So it seems still just as UC-based, although I'm not sure how strong it is, I generally dislike giving up AC in forms. Of course the healing might compensate for that.

Overall I don't mind that transmutations are linked to UC, because it makes logical sense and I love UC.

Edit: And_into posted at roughly the same time as me, so in response: I love everything in the spoiler, make it happen. I'd particularly like if the golem's hp scaled up very well with spellpower so you could make some really tanky golems later on, who would of course wear down, but could take some hits when they're fresh.

[dpeg]

and into: these are good ideas, they are probably too buried here!

[XuaXua]

Overall I don't mind that transmutations are linked to UC, because it makes logical sense and I love UC.

Out of curiousity, are there steps of Transmutation where we should stop training it, or does it affect the power of a form based on skill level?

Edit: 'd particularly like if the golem's hp scaled up very well with spellpower so you could make some really tanky golems later on, who would of course wear down, but could take some hits when they're fresh.

I'd love to see that golem item work, with additions: on a re-cast, it'd heal the golem rather than replace it, and on cast, it would take non-stone items from the environment as well (clouds, plants, possibly floor items), and potentially create a golem with appropriate resistances or effects.

and into: these are good ideas, they are probably too buried here!

I agree.

[crate]

Personally I don't see anything wrong with tmut being tied to form spells so heavily (in fact I might actually oppose adding many more non-form tmut spells, since I think the school works pretty well as-is ... in fact the most problematic tmut spells are already the non-form ones!), and I don't have a problem with them largely using UC either.

Probably the biggest "problem" with forms + UC existing is that either the forms need to be kind of bad or UC without forms needs to be bad (and the latter is pretty much the case right now). But I don't really see that as a problem either, and of course as long as tm background gets to start with something like ice form or blade hands (or even spider form) even if none of the other forms use only UC this "problem" would still exist.

[KoboldLord]

The modern transmuter is a relic from bygone days of Crawl past, where principles of game design weren't really something that the devteam of that time considered worth thinking about. If the transmuter was being implemented from scratch in an alternate version of modern Crawl where it had never existed, it would almost certainly be implemented as a deity rather than a spell skill. But since we're in the version of modern Crawl where transmuters have been around since near the beginning, there's no real incentive to rip out a popular and interesting game experience just because it doesn't exactly match the other game features.

[tasonir]

Overall I don't mind that transmutations are linked to UC, because it makes logical sense and I love UC.

Out of curiousity, are there steps of Transmutation where we should stop training it, or does it affect the power of a form based on skill level?

Most transmutations aren't that spell power dependent. Higher spell power on blade hands only increases the duration as far as I know. This used to also be the case for statue form, but it was changed to have the ac bonus be dependent on spell power, so now having extra spell power for statue form means more ac. This generally isn't too big of a deal since by the time you have the spell online you have high enough spell power for good ac, but once you have all of your pressing skill needs covered, you can go back and train transmutations/earth magic as a kind of proxy armor skill.

I don't really use spider/ice/dragon form often (and ice is being removed I hear) but I believe they all only use spell power for duration. Transmutations are generally spells you just get to a low failure rate and move on.

[XuaXua]

ice is being removed I hear

Why? It's an excellent UC option for transmuters against Hydra and other early tough beasts affected by cold (Spiny Frogs, etc.)

[duvessa]

ice form isn't being removed calm your testicles