Should Potion of Resistance give MR+?

[Jeremiah]

I quite often see posts in Dungeon Crawling Advice saying "the reason you got banished/paralysed etc and died is because your MR isn't high enough."

Actually, a lot of the time players don't have the option of having MR any higher than it already is because they are playing a species with mediocre innate MR and there are no MR+ rings etc available. But what if there was a consumable way to temporarily increase MR significantly? And since Potions of Resistance already exist, maybe they could give MR as well.

It would create more circumstances in which players might want to quaff !Resistance, and therefore possibly make them rarer in the other situations when you might want them, which normally seems to come down to meeting Nikola when you don't have rElec, or some relatively rare cases where you run into a jelly vault without rCorr.

[crate]

for the record potions of resistance are very good for the entire game

that said there's not really a problem with adding MR to the potion necessarily

[Greyr]

Potions of resistance are already very stong. MR+ might be better found on a pot of cancellation.

edit: or on ANY other potion besides resistance, which does NOT need a buff.

[Sar]

I don't think that adding an additional effect to a potion that dispels other effects is a good idea.

[damiac]

adding magic resistance to the potion of resistance makes about as much sense as having a potion of curing cure things...

Which is to say, yes, it should do that.

[jejorda2]

I like the idea of gaining magic resistance from the potion of resistance.

I'd like it more if it involved removing all the useless negative potions and granting one of their effects at random when the potion of mixed blessings was consumed.

[johlstei]

adding magic resistance to the potion of resistance makes about as much sense as having a potion of curing cure things...

Which is to say, yes, it should do that.

Well if you think that change should be made you should argue why from a game design perspective, not a naming one. Why should the potion that grants fire, cold, elec, poison, and acid resistance add magic resistance, other than the word resistance in the name? Do you think the potion is underused? Are enemy hexes too strong/common? Magic resistance too rare? I'm not taking a position here, I'm just saying what a position in favor of this should look like.

My only opinion is that I think if you make this change, then magic resistance rings should be made more rare.

[XuaXua]

My only opinion is that I think if you make this change, then magic resistance rings should be made more rare.

So potions of resistance are so common?

[johlstei]

My only opinion is that I think if you make this change, then magic resistance rings should be made more rare.

So potions of resistance are so common?

I don't think the amount of MR+ in the game needs to be increased, so I think the average should stay the same. Adding it to a reasonably available potion should then mean other sources of it are reduced. This change would mean it less common to be caught without any source of it, while still keeping it have the same availability overall, and that is the best potential outcome of this proposal in my eyes.

[Sandman25]

I don't think the amount of MR+ in the game needs to be increased, so I think the average should stay the same. Adding it to a reasonably available potion should then mean other sources of it are reduced. This change would mean it less common to be caught without any source of it, while still keeping it have the same availability overall, and that is the best potential outcome of this proposal in my eyes.

Using the potion to deal with MR problem means you will have one less potion to deal with rElec (Electric Golem) or rF(OoF) problem so I think the change will not make crawl any easier, it will just add another important decision to make which is good IMHO.

Edit. It is not fun to be paralyzed 3 times for 7 turns each time without any way to avoid it (there are too many MR-related attacks in the game, much more than rF+ or rElec).

[johlstei]

I guess what I mean is, "should MR be more widely available" and "should potion of resistance give MR" are separate questions that can be answered and addressed independently.

[all before]

I guess what I mean is, "should MR be more widely available" and "should potion of resistance give MR" are separate questions that can be answered and addressed independently.

It seems like OP is asking for both. Even though MR+ can come from both rings and armours, like elemental resistances, not having MR+ is much more likely to one-turn kill you than not having rF+ or rC+. So I imagine that OP wants wider availability of MR+. But OP also seems to suggest that having/not having MR+ is too binary--you either have the ring/ego-armour or you don't, whereas with elementals there are also potions of resist.

I don't really care for resistance rings in general-- a quickly swappable source of resistance does not lead to interesting decision-making. So, if sources of MR were to be increased, I'd support it happening through potions.

[Patashu]

So should it also give rN+?

[njvack]

So should it also give rN+?

Why on earth would it not?

[Patashu]

So should it also give rN+?

Why on earth would it not?

Right now it gives fire/cold/pois/elec/acid only.

[ludamad]

I'll just say that as a new player, I assumed it'd be a good idea to quaff these in any resistable scenario (And no, I didn't know about '%').
Obviously just make it resist everything, including teleport .
I personally like the idea of a catch-all resistence source to smooth over potentially scarce RNG.

[njvack]

Right now it gives fire/cold/pois/elec/acid only.

OK, I meant "what purpose would it serve to have it not give rN+?"

I kinda feel like the potion of Resistance should help you resist anything that can be resisted. rN, rRot, rHellfire, rTorment (as per the demonspawn mutation), the lot of it. It's not a particularly common potion and the effect isn't super long.

[XuaXua]

I kinda feel like the potion of Resistance should help you resist anything that can be resisted.

Based on the name it has, I agree; otherwise it's just Potion of Elemental, Poison and Acid Resistance.
#bikeshedding

[Patashu]

Right now it gives fire/cold/pois/elec/acid only.

OK, I meant "what purpose would it serve to have it not give rN+?"

I kinda feel like the potion of Resistance should help you resist anything that can be resisted. rN, rRot, rHellfire, rTorment (as per the demonspawn mutation), the lot of it. It's not a particularly common potion and the effect isn't super long.

At some point you may as well change the potion to give you temporary 1.5x hp like the hp part of berserk, rather than tack on more specific kinds of things it resists.

[njvack]

OK then which resistible things should it do? I can't see any logical list except maybe only rF and rC. Not that it really matters much; "grab bag of somewhat common resistances" is fine too. I just think the complete one is the way to get people to not wonder "why does the potion of resistance not let me resist <foo>?"

[nicolae]

OK then which resistible things should it do? I can't see any logical list except maybe only rF and rC.

At the moment, its resistances are physical things -- temperature extremes, hazardous substances, electricity -- instead of necromancy, hexes, and other magic. There's a cohesive flavor to the current set of resists, though this isn't really totally necessary or worth saving.

Not that it really matters much; "grab bag of somewhat common resistances" is fine too. I just think the complete one is the way to get people to not wonder "why does the potion of resistance not let me resist <foo>?"

"Because it doesn't."

[Sharkman1231]

Is it really bad for it to give a whole bunch of resistances? In my most recent game I found 2 (!) pots. I used them to fight TRJ and an OOF. While I think 2 is lower than average, the fact remains that you don't get very many. Having them give some of the more common resistances (I really don't think anything ever should give rHellfire) would mean a player may not have a !resistance when they run into Nikola or an Electric Golem or an OOF. From what I've learned about crawl's design philosophy is that choices are good. A temp source of emergency MR that's not Trog would be nice.

I think it shouldn't give rRot or rTorment either by the way.

[Sprucery]

I think a potion of resistance should increase all resistances which the character has displayed in the % screen. That would be logical. It wouldn't bee too unbalancing since the potions aren't very common.

[Hurkyl]

Think of it this way:

• Is there any good reason why there isn't a potion of resist negative energy?
• If there is to be a potion of resist negative energy, is there any good reason why it should be a different item than a potion of resistance?

Same deal with magic resistance.

[jejorda2]

Neutral energy has not been implemented. As far as I know, it has not even been suggested.
Magic resistance exists.

This is an important difference between neutral energy and magic resistance.

If you mean negative energy, I agree with your reasoning, and would answer that both should be in the potion of resistance.

I'd say that any resistance that can be gained from equipment should be added to the potion. Resistances that only come from race or religion shouldn't be in the potion.

The potion helps when you haven't found the equipment or are choosing to use different equipment.

[damiac]

Alternatively, rename it to the "Potion of Insulation (and poison resistance)"
Insulation covers fire, cold, and electricity. Poison resistance covers poison resistance.

Then create a potion of resist magic, because there should be a consumable way to get temporary MR when you need it.

[XuaXua]

Alternatively, rename it to the "Potion of Insulation (and poison resistance)"
Insulation covers fire, cold, and electricity. Poison resistance covers poison resistance.

Then create a potion of resist magic, because there should be a consumable way to get temporary MR when you need it.

A Scroll of Invulnerability, perhaps?

[damiac]

Then those jerk-ass mummies could use it! No buffing mummies!

[scorpionwarrior]

Every time I need some MR in a trunk game I think "hmm, I wonder if the devs changed it so !resistance actually makes sense now".. And I know I'm not alone so it should probably just be changed so it makes sense to people who know what words mean.

Resistance pots aren't nearly common enough for this to be a powercreep concern.

[le_nerd]

I think that MR attacks are too common, and that there really should be a consumable source of MR. It does after all create an interesting choice, since !resistance is quite rare. Since magic damping is a scroll, it makes thematically sense to have a scroll of invulnerability; that said, inventory clutter is high enough already. On the other hand I am against buffing !resistance, just because it is at a sweet spot of usage/rarity. But I think its really a problem in crawl.
(for the record, I nearly only play highMR-species because that stuff is so incredibly annoying.)

[WalkerBoh]

Two issues here are being confused for one another. If the potion doesn't do what is expected based on the name, change the name. If the potion isn't adequately creating interesting tactical/strategic decisions (i.e, the main reason consumables exist) then change the potion's effects. I get the sense that in this case the name is the issue, not the potion itself.

With regards to magic resistance, I think there is enough already. Even if you don't have enough MR to consistently resist paralysis, confusion, marking, etc. there are multiple other ways to deal with these things (stasis, curing, cancellation, etc). By making MR more scarce, you create decisions with regards to when to use other items. This seems okay to me.

[crate]

Well if I got to re-implement potion of resistance from scratch I would probably actually make it just rF+ rC+ only (which conveniently matches the armour/shield ego), but that doesn't seem to be the direction that the potion is going.

[Hurkyl]

Well if I got to re-implement potion of resistance from scratch I would probably actually make it just rF+ rC+ only (which conveniently matches the armour/shield ego), but that doesn't seem to be the direction that the potion is going.

Not rElec? That part's been the most useful to me. And rElec is rather hard to come by, I'm not sure it's a good idea to remove a source of it.

[partial]

I would kill for a source of rHFire