Ogre- second head

[sigfried von murdock]

So my ogre berserker while wandering around stumbled across a second ankus (fairly rare for M/F's) and I thought to myself, two headed ogres can dual wield giant clubs, why couldn't ogres dual wield normal clubs, or gain the ability to dual wield clubs.

Then another idea hit me, there is potential for an ogre only mutation: Growing a second head.

I am not asking that ogres be able to spawn a second head at a given level, or be able to dual wield weapons or giant clubs, but of the three ogres types in crawl Ogre, Ogre mage, two headed Ogre, only the normal ogre and mage aspect have been addressed. Also Elrocha is a two headed ogre mage.

I know ogres just went through a recent buff which I think was much needed, I would just like the possibility discussed and explored so that perhaps the race could be a bit more fleshed out and unique.

Any thoughts?

[MrMisterMonkey]

1) Both dual-wielding are already on that list of things that won't ever be done but people still suggest all the time for some reason.
Read the list; stop suggesting.

2) Erolcha only has one head.

3) what's this about ogre aspects

[SinsI]

1) Both dual-wielding are already on that list of things that won't ever be done but people still suggest all the time for some reason.

At least two of those are already implemented (Felids and Evaporate), so never say never.

That list needs to state the reason for each and every point in it. What are the reasons against:
- dipping items(not necessarily weapons, rather, dipping non-weapons is more interesting) into potions?
- Give full xp for summons/ally kills
(you've already eliminated all the scumming, thus any summoning is a pure XP loss for the player)

[MrMisterMonkey]

felids aren't restoring saves after death

evaporate isn't throwing potions

not that I like either of them, or think it's cool to be vague or omit reasons, but whatever

[galehar]

1) Both dual-wielding are already on that list of things that won't ever be done but people still suggest all the time for some reason.

At least two of those are already implemented (Felids and Evaporate), so never say never.

That list needs to state the reason for each and every point in it. What are the reasons against:
- dipping items(not necessarily weapons, rather, dipping non-weapons is more interesting) into potions?
- Give full xp for summons/ally kills
(you've already eliminated all the scumming, thus any summoning is a pure XP loss for the player)

Felids have a few lives, but this is balanced by the many restrictions and weaknesses of the race. There's also a divine life saving in the game. We just don't want a general save/load or savepoint mechanism.
Evaporate is fine, but people keep asking to throw potions like in nethack.
Dipping items. Again, this isn't nethack and it would only add tedium. Crawl is about tactical combat not alchemy.
Full XP for allies. Letting your allies do the killing is much safer than doing it yourself. It has to have a drawback.
Dual wielding would just make the interface more complex, and the game impossible to balance.
Two-headed species. I think it fits monsters much better than player species. The fact that we have an ogre player species and a two-headed ogre monster isn't a reason to allow two-headed ogre player species.

Things that are on this list have often been discussed over and over. If you really think you know better, you'd better make a really strong argument rather than just "Then another idea hit me".

[SinsI]

Evaporate is fine, but people keep asking to throw potions like in nethack.
Dipping items. Again, this isn't nethack and it would only add tedium. Crawl is about tactical combat not alchemy.

Things that are on this list have often been discussed over and over. If you really think you know better, you'd better make a really strong argument rather than just "Then another idea hit me".

Evaporate IS throwing potions with additional drawbacks.
Dipping items - it is not Alchemy(which is mixing potions - item creation and is a completely different thing), it is a one time Poison Brand spell, a very tactical thing, no different from Potion of Might or Speed.

These restrictions are just screwing up those that are not spellcasters, which is a bad thing - items are meant for everyone to use, not just select few. Magic is overpowered enough...

Full XP for allies. Letting your allies do the killing is much safer than doing it yourself. It has to have a drawback.

Same thing can be said about ranged combat - killing from the distance is much safer than killing face-to face. And doing it armed&armored is safer than naked and barehanded. And with Unarmed Skill and Dodging it is much safer than with all your XP in Traps&Doors.
And killing orcish priests in Confusion Cloud is much safer than everything else. Let's stop giving XP at all to those that use it!

It also rises some questions - should you give full XP for kills with Conjure Ball Lightning?

Summoning is not safe, you already face a high chance of your ally turning up on you - it is a risky move that can pay high but can also cost you a lot. Any abuse must be handled by tweaking spells, not by arbitrary restrictions.

[dpeg]

SinsI: please stop it!

There is a page called THINGS WE WON'T DO, a developer takes the time to list WHY we won't do and then you come telling us how to do it.

No alchemy, no life saving, no containers, no dual wielding, no double headed ogres, no full xp for ally kills. Stop it!

[galehar]

We set up a page to list the things we don't want and are tired of arguing. You choose stuff from this list and ask "why not?" without even trying to make a compelling argument. Are you trying to upset us?

[pratamawirya]

Wow. This looks like a thread on Western vs Islam or something.

[danr]

I'm going to lock the thread since this has already been discussed here (it was my idea actually that time) and because it's on the Won't Do list. The devs are fully entitled to say they won't do certain things, and they don't even owe us any reasons for it, though it is nice to hear the reason and helps prevent the same ideas from being raised again and again.