Species: Crystal Dwarf


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Post Friday, 6th December 2013, 19:43

Species: Crystal Dwarf

An artificial dwarf created by ancient dwarven magic. It is completely built of crystal taken from the underground living quarters of the Deep Dwarves. This gives them many great resistances, though their skill growth is very slow. Their STR, INT, and DEX are similar to that of a Deep Dwarf. Due to a lack of soul, they gain piety twice as slow as normal.

Innate Abilities
  Code:
Heat Resistance 3
Cold Resistance 3
Shock Resistance 1
Poison Resistance 1
Magic Resistance 3
Mutation Resistance 3
Life Protection 3
Resist Rot
Resist Petrification
Unbreathing
Vulnerability to Shatter and LRD
Slow 1
Soulless: Gains piety twice as slow.



Level Bonuses
  Code:
+1 STR, INT, or DEX every 3 levels.
20% more HP
Average MP
+3 magic resistance every 3 levels.



Skill Aptitudes
  Code:
Fighting: -2
Short Blades: -2
Long Blades: -2
Axes: -1
Maces & Flails: -2
Polearms: -2
Staves: -2
Unarmed Combat: -2
Throwing: -2
Slings: -1
Bows: -2
Crossbows: -1
Armour: -1
Dodging: -1
Stealth: -1
Shields: -1
Fire Magic: -2
Ice Magic: -2
Air Magic: -2
Earth Magic: -1
Poison Magic: -2
Spellcasting: -2
Conjurations: -2
Hexes: -2
Charms: -2
Summonings: -2
Necromancy: -1
Translocations: -1
Transmutation: -2
Invocations: -2
Evocations: -1
Experience: -1
Last edited by Klown on Friday, 6th December 2013, 20:28, edited 4 times in total.

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Post Friday, 6th December 2013, 19:59

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

The combination of hungerless and extremely low skill proficiencies leads optimal play for this species into a grindy, wait out a level and kill as many things, in a really really boring, scummy fashion, as you can on each level.

This is really like a mummy, but one who is even worse at skills making them even more prone to wait-scumming behavior. Since they aren't good at *anything* and have high resitances to *everything* they'll end up prone to Exp scumming in it's most extreme form.

I like the theme, but there needs to be some kind of balance in the way they play that leads you towards interesting play, and away from boring play.
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Post Friday, 6th December 2013, 20:04

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

Siegurt wrote:The combination of hungerless and extremely low skill proficiencies leads optimal play for this species into a grindy, wait out a level and kill as many things, in a really really boring, scummy fashion, as you can on each level.

This is really like a mummy, but one who is even worse at skills making them even more prone to wait-scumming behavior. Since they aren't good at *anything* and have high resitances to *everything* they'll end up prone to Exp scumming in it's most extreme form.

I like the theme, but there needs to be some kind of balance in the way they play that leads you towards interesting play, and away from boring play.


Would adding standard hunger fix this?

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Post Friday, 6th December 2013, 20:07

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

Klown wrote:
Siegurt wrote:The combination of hungerless and extremely low skill proficiencies leads optimal play for this species into a grindy, wait out a level and kill as many things, in a really really boring, scummy fashion, as you can on each level.

This is really like a mummy, but one who is even worse at skills making them even more prone to wait-scumming behavior. Since they aren't good at *anything* and have high resitances to *everything* they'll end up prone to Exp scumming in it's most extreme form.

I like the theme, but there needs to be some kind of balance in the way they play that leads you towards interesting play, and away from boring play.


Would adding standard hunger fix this?


Somewhat, yes, but then they'd just be terrible, instead of boring and terrible.
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Post Friday, 6th December 2013, 22:39

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

What if you took away a boatload of their resistances and gave them some kind of temperature-based "processing power," such that getting hit by cold attacks or being in water allows them to think faster, improving their spellcasting abilities at the cost of melee abilities/defenses? Maybe eating causes your metabolic rate to rise, warming you up; at high temperatures, you get a big damage bonus, maybe similar to finesse, but -Cast. Give them a high Ice apt (+3?) and unwreck their apts otherwise.

I'm pretty sure there's a Night Watch novel in the Discworld series that has some kind of golem with similar mechanics, if not a few other examples. It's probably too conceptually close to LO to work, though.
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Post Friday, 6th December 2013, 22:49

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

It's inspired by the Crystal Golem monster of Stone Soup, that's where the resistances come from. :D

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Post Friday, 6th December 2013, 23:23

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

archaeo wrote:What if you took away a boatload of their resistances and gave them some kind of temperature-based "processing power," such that getting hit by cold attacks or being in water allows them to think faster, improving their spellcasting abilities at the cost of melee abilities/defenses? Maybe eating causes your metabolic rate to rise, warming you up; at high temperatures, you get a big damage bonus, maybe similar to finesse, but -Cast. Give them a high Ice apt (+3?) and unwreck their apts otherwise.

I'm pretty sure there's a Night Watch novel in the Discworld series that has some kind of golem with similar mechanics, if not a few other examples. It's probably too conceptually close to LO to work, though.


Actually it's trolls who think better in the cold in discworld.
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Post Saturday, 7th December 2013, 21:29

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

And of course it must be a dwarf.
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Post Monday, 9th December 2013, 01:05

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

epsilon wrote:And of course it must be a dwarf.


They're an oppressed folk desperate for a regeneration form. ;)

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Post Monday, 9th December 2013, 10:30

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

Your description states they have no soul.. If that's the case, maybe no god would accept them..
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Post Monday, 9th December 2013, 11:32

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

skyspire wrote:Your description states they have no soul.. If that's the case, maybe no god would accept them..


I didn't want them to completely rip the Demigod's style. :) Trog is still happy as long as you shed blood for him, soul or none!

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Post Monday, 9th December 2013, 11:41

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

Well, they would definitely be banned from Yred. The other gods are debatable, but would probably be okay with nonliving worshipers.

I really like the halved piety gain, it should nicely screw with god choice and use, while preserving the depth of the religion system.

The universal resists are a bigger problem than the apts IMO. They mean all resist gear is irrelevant to you, and all elemental attacks are pretty much the same, always, which is kind of lame.

Why/How can they use potions?

Also I think they would have a really terrible early game due to slowness and bad apts, while being kind of okay later, when resists are actually relevant. Nagas, the other slow species, at least get to spit poison to give them an early game edge.
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Post Monday, 9th December 2013, 18:29

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

I believe you could look at its big brother, Crystal Golem:
Speed: 7 | HD: 13 | HP: 102-132 | AC/EV: 22/3

High starting AC certainly would wreck the early game.
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Post Tuesday, 10th December 2013, 00:11

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

"Let's take one of the most boring monsters in the game, and make a species out of it."
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Post Tuesday, 10th December 2013, 01:11

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

duvessa wrote:"Let's take one of the most boring monsters in the game, and make a species out of it."
Spriggan Enchanters are a nice and fun combo, right? How do you like playing against the monster versions of them.

Also, Octopodes, Demonspawn, Demigods, Deep Dwarves, Formacids, Humans, Felids, Gargoyles and Halflings are all pretty poor monsters which make fine player species.

As Galefury mentioned, halved piety gain is the one good mechanic and the rest of the proposal is flavor text or worse (The one way it might be interesting is if it changed what you saw as a threat, and Gargoyles already do that much better). It may (or may not) be worth trying to staple the piety thing onto a vanilla species like Halflings, Kobolds, or maybe High Elves, which have slightly distinct apts, but no major meachanic to call their own.
Last edited by reaver on Tuesday, 10th December 2013, 14:47, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Tuesday, 10th December 2013, 02:04

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

reaver wrote:Deep Dwarves, Deep Dwarfs [..] Halflings are all pretty poor monsters which make fine player species.

But they don't.

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Post Tuesday, 10th December 2013, 02:11

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

dck wrote:
reaver wrote:Deep Dwarves, Deep Dwarfs [..] Halflings are all pretty poor monsters which make fine player species.

But they don't.
:roll: Alright then, Octopodes, Demonspawn, Demigods, Formacids, Humans, Felids, and Gargoyles are all pretty poor monsters which make fine player species. (Yes you could debate a bit more on some of these. The point is being a good monster and being a good species are unrelated.)
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Post Tuesday, 10th December 2013, 03:01

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

Also, since it seems like the most liked thing about the proposal, dpeg is the one who came up with the soulless piety ability when we were talking species before :p
So full credit to him.

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Post Tuesday, 10th December 2013, 05:12

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

reaver wrote:As Galefury mentioned, halved piety gain is a gain is the one good mechanic and the rest of the proposal is flavor text or worse (The one way it might be interesting is if it changed what you saw as a threat, and Gargoyles already do that much better). It may (or may not) be worth trying to staple the piety thing onto a vanilla species like Halflings, Kobolds, or maybe High Elves, which have slightly distinct apts, but no major meachanic to call their own.


Not really on topic, but I don't think every species needs a major mechanic to call their own. It's good to have some simpler races available that just cover different niches of aptitudes without anything fancy. I don't think we need any new races like that, but that's because I think we've already got the basic aptitude niches covered by existing races.

And Halflings do get mutation resistance, which isn't a huge game-changing mechanic but it is something unique to them.

Anyway, it seems like the general consensus in the thread is that halved piety gain is an interesting idea for a species downside, but massive resistances to everything is not an interesting species upside.

So I guess the main question would be, is there a more interesting upside than massive defenses that fits the flavor of a soulless golem but given that the soulless golem idea does seem like a reasonable flavor for the half piety (most gods would be reluctant to accept a soulless construct, but could eventually be won over if it turned out good enough at carrying out their will, with the exception of Yred), is there a better way to offset it that still fits the golem flavor? What interesting mechanics could a golem have that would give it unique advantages without overlapping too much with Gargoyles?

I feel like there might be interesting things you could do with customizing yourself. What if you could graft items to your character as you progress through the game? Maybe every few levels you get another charge of an ability that lets you graft an item to yourself, and different items have different effects. Graft a weapon and you get an auxiliary attack that has the weapon's brand. Graft some armor and you get a permanent boost to your AC. Graft a ring and you get a (possibly weaker) permanent version of its effects. Maybe you could even graft wands, although I'm not sure how that would work (wand randomly fires at you (if positive effect) or enemies (if negative effect) in high tension?).

It would be really complicated and probably a nightmare to balance, but could be pretty fun and unique. Sort of like Demonspawn mutations that you have more control over.

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Post Tuesday, 10th December 2013, 06:31

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

Hm, Crystal dwarf.... Built in reflection! (I'm not sure whether that's a joke or serious suggestion)
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Post Tuesday, 10th December 2013, 07:36

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

Quazifuji wrote:So I guess the main question would be, is there a more interesting upside than massive defenses that fits the flavor of a soulless golem but given that the soulless golem idea does seem like a reasonable flavor for the half piety (most gods would be reluctant to accept a soulless construct, but could eventually be won over if it turned out good enough at carrying out their will, with the exception of Yred), is there a better way to offset it that still fits the golem flavor?

My gut says that any soulless golem should be given strong stats, good apts., and some kind of mechanical flavor. Crawl only has a few isolated machines, but I wouldn't mind seeing that flavor extended to a species, especially with the soulless half-piety mechanic. Maybe it would be worthwhile to look through all the evocations-based god proposals that have been flooding the board lately; there is clearly some desire for a non-card based evocations focus. Maybe they can dual wield wands, I don't know.

I tend to agree that a boatload of resistances and bland toughness isn't really going to do it. Then you're just making a more difficult Gr.
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Post Tuesday, 10th December 2013, 08:26

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

We already had a boatload of golem proposals. None got anywhere. The problem is that unliving is so similar to being undead, and with no potions and no food, you're already close to mummy.
If the half-piety is good, why not just staple it to the existing somewhat unliving species which many consider OP?
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Post Tuesday, 10th December 2013, 09:17

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

Actually I'd consider a mummy with half-piety and significantly less horrible aptitudes to be considerably more enjoyable to play, particularly at the beginning of the game, and probably not really particularly more powerful in the long run (Just less waiting around)
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Post Tuesday, 10th December 2013, 11:53

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

galehar wrote:If the half-piety is good, why not just staple it to the existing somewhat unliving species which many consider OP?

If you are implying Gr and not Mu, then I like this idea.
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Post Tuesday, 10th December 2013, 12:38

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

Who the hell considers Mu OP?
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Post Tuesday, 10th December 2013, 15:04

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

galehar wrote:If the half-piety is good, why not just staple it to the existing somewhat unliving species which many consider OP?
Quite simply, that would be a waste of design resources. Gr already has a fun mechanic (High AC Low HP) that elegantly changes play. Halved Piety gain also does this, but in a unrelated way to the Gr mechanic. It'd be like combining Ash and Chei to make a god that lets you slow yourself or curse yourself for benefits: There are just more choices if you make them separate.

Quazifuji wrote:Not really on topic, but I don't think every species needs a major mechanic to call their own. It's good to have some simpler races available that just cover different niches of aptitudes without anything fancy.
I also think this. I just think Humans, Deep Elves, High Elves, Hill Orcs, Minotaurs, Kobolds, Halflings, Merfolk, Tengu, and Orges too many. (Even if you take off the half with "minor" mechanics.)

Also, I'm not sure how significant halved piety gain would be. I think it would be around the level of being one of the undead player species: you notice and compensate for it but it doesn't completely define your game.
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Post Tuesday, 10th December 2013, 22:45

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

There are already other high-defense low-HP species, tengu and halfling in particular. I don't think Gr does it any better, so it seems fine to give it another property that's actually, you know, unique.

reaver wrote:Also, Octopodes, Demonspawn, Demigods, Deep Dwarves, Formacids, Humans, Felids, Gargoyles and Halflings are all pretty poor monsters which make fine player species.
Every single one of these except gargoyles started as a species and later became a monster, which is not the case here. And if you look at the original proposal gargoyles had virtually nothing in common with the gargoyle monster, and in fact, they still don't (they have the same rPois and size, that's about all).
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Post Wednesday, 11th December 2013, 00:06

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

duvessa wrote:Every single one of these except gargoyles started as a species and later became a monster, which is not the case here.
That's actually a very good point, but I still don't see how being based on a boring monster necessarily means they are are boring themselves. The soulless ability shows they can easily receive differentiations not hinted at by the monster.
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Post Wednesday, 11th December 2013, 01:02

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

In fact with op, ds, dg, dd, fo, hu, fe, gr, and ha ...

they're not actually even intended to ever be used as monsters (some bad vaultmakers ignore this and use them anyway, though I guess octopodes have recently been changed to be actual monsters kind of). The only reason those monsters were even in the code in the first place is for the show_player_species option.

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Post Wednesday, 11th December 2013, 09:16

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

my only comment with this race is it just seems to be a race with high natural resistances to everything, but poor aptitudes. There is not much more to set it apart. Also not sure about food? Crystal Dwarf is made from crystal? so in theory it wouldn't eat anything, right.. It would be like a golem. Am I wrong?

Yeah this seems to be a definite challenge in the early game.
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Post Wednesday, 11th December 2013, 11:03

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

Siegurt wrote:Hm, Crystal dwarf.... Built in reflection! (I'm not sure whether that's a joke or serious suggestion)


I had the idea of a race with no MP regeneration, instead it would regenerate MP by absorbing enemy spells (by some formula, not necessarily 1:1), with the excess energy being bled off in a manner similar to reflection. It would be a different sort of reflection than what crawl currently has though (works on conj, but not ranged). It's still a very raw concept but your post reminded me of it.

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Post Wednesday, 11th December 2013, 11:36

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

DracheReborn wrote:
Siegurt wrote:Hm, Crystal dwarf.... Built in reflection! (I'm not sure whether that's a joke or serious suggestion)


I had the idea of a race with no MP regeneration, instead it would regenerate MP by absorbing enemy spells (by some formula, not necessarily 1:1), with the excess energy being bled off in a manner similar to reflection. It would be a different sort of reflection than what crawl currently has though (works on conj, but not ranged). It's still a very raw concept but your post reminded me of it.


Then you'd have to carefully ration your spellcasting when the game starts and hope the first orc wizard you meet doesn't murder you before it refills your MP.

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Post Wednesday, 11th December 2013, 13:00

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

nicolae wrote:Then you'd have to carefully ration your spellcasting when the game starts and hope the first orc wizard you meet doesn't murder you before it refills your MP.


Yeah, that's a problem. Starting with potions of magic can help there though.

Re getting killed by orc wizards, I actually imagine this race to be strong vs enemy conjurers. x amount of damage gets converted to MP, y amount gets reflected, and only the leftover amount actually damages you. In particular, allowing the part that gets converted to MP to damage you makes this just an overcomplicated version of djinn (effectively converting HP for MP). Other characteristics of this race: bad dodging, no armour (I mean, you want to get hit), high HP, bad weapon apts, good conjurer apts. So sort of like a fast recharging blaster cannon.

But it's true that magic using opponents aren't regularly available for large stretches of the game. So another recharge mechanic is probably needed. Maybe absorbing charges from wands, or maybe allowing physical attacks to recharge some MP.

(Sorry for the derail :oops: , and if anyone wants to discuss this concept further, I'll make a new thread)

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Post Wednesday, 11th December 2013, 13:22

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

DracheReborn wrote:So another recharge mechanic is probably needed. Maybe absorbing charges from wands

Well, you wrote it and didn't think about it ?
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Post Wednesday, 11th December 2013, 19:04

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

A piety malus is a good drawback. Giving lots of extreme aptitudes or innate resistances is usually kind of boring, it can sometimes help flesh out a species but doesn't add enough by itself, because all the standard species have a lot of that already covered. One theme would also be to make a crystal dwarf/golem have high defenses against magic—but these very defenses render them immune not only to magical effects like confuse and slow, but also makes charm spells unusable.

To run with that theme:

"Crystal Dwarf" (needs better name)

Drawbacks:
1.) Piety malus
2.) Can't change form
[EDIT: not sure about that one, maybe form change and mutation resistance (below) should be removed]
3.) Can't use charm spells
(note that you can receive charm-like benefits from items and gods, however, so wands, !speed and +Fly still work, as does Trog's hand and heroism, finesse, etc.)

Benefits:
1.) Immune to hostile enchantments (not including banishment, perhaps?)
2.) 100% mutation resistance
3.) Innate rPois
4.) All damage from hostile magic sources reduced by half
(however this reduction does not apply to "otherworldly" magic—i.e., Torment and Hellfire still do full damage)

Average HP growth, +1 Magic growth
+2 evocations, +2 armor, +1 spell casting, +1 summoning, +1 conjurations, +1 hexes, charms N/A
All other aptitudes average (0), including experience (so levels fairly quickly)
Innate +3 AC from start

Rationale:
Charms are so ubiquitous on non-Troggies, so I think taking them away as the usual leaning post is a good start. This species would have some item-related flavor, but in a very different way: You are more dependent upon your consumables than other species, due to no charms spells and restricted use of god abilities. A good evocations aptitude underscores this (and makes higher item reliance a bit easier to develop). On the positive side, you have some great intrinsics, first and foremost, a very strong defense against magic. The innate rPois and +3 AC aren't really necessary but seem to fit, they help out a bit especially in the early game, so they seem to be a good idea for a species that needs to wait longer before divine help can be used. This guy would play particularly well in a defensive / armored "caster" role, but with good all around aptitudes and good HP and MP growth, making it a versatile species, albeit one with distinctive drawbacks and advantages.

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Post Wednesday, 11th December 2013, 20:24

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

As a species with good summoning being unable to haste your summons sounds bad for no reason, also this species makes a stick of haste even better than it already is and it already is the best item in the game.
Also this is pretty weird, you can't cast charms that target yourself but you can cast invis on yourself? But not sure blade, I suppose. What about shroud of golubria and phase shift? Seems like it'd require a lot of special casing or have rather weird effects on the development of certain schools.
Having immunity to hostile ench and halved damage from anything magical paired with normal size, normal hps, great defensive apts and full body slots will make them ridiculously strong even without the extra AC and also their early game doesn't suffer because they can use potions just fine.

I'd ban self-wand of haste for them and make their only source of haste !speed.

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Post Wednesday, 11th December 2013, 20:40

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

dck wrote:I'd ban self-wand of haste for them and make their only source of haste !speed.


Could be a bit weird with flavor / rationale, but I agree it would make them more interesting. The whole idea behind my take on the species was to get away from the usual reliance on charms, without being woefully gimped as a result.

dck wrote:AAlso this is pretty weird, you can't cast charms that target yourself but you can cast invis on yourself? But not sure blade, I suppose. What about shroud of golubria and phase shift? Seems like it'd require a lot of special casing or have rather weird effects on the development of certain schools.


Yes, I thought about this a bit, and it seemed the simplest thing was to just have a ban on all charms spells. This includes "part" charm spells, like sure blade. Invisibility and phase shift would then be "odd ones out," they could be special-cased not to work, in addition to spells of the charms school, but I'm not sure that's necessary, as it then introduces a problem of being spoilery. Fortunately the flavor descriptions of invisibility and phase shift, as currently written, provide a bit of a rationale for why they might work even if other charms spells are forbidden. (Description of invisibility says "hides from view of others," for instance.)

dck wrote:Having immunity to hostile ench and halved damage from anything magical paired with normal size, normal hps, great defensive apts and full body slots will make them ridiculously strong even without the extra AC and also their early game doesn't suffer because they can use potions just fine.


True. rPois is not very unique anyway, nor is +3 AC, just seemed to fit with a partially non-living, crystalline being. Neither is necessary though. The "halved magical damage," if too much, could be reduced and/or scale up only with level, but I wanted a dramatic bonus to be paired up with the significant drawbacks of no charms and halved piety gain.

dck

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Post Wednesday, 11th December 2013, 21:09

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

Well let's go a bit more in depth on what schools that aren't Charms are hurt by losing certain important spells:

Necromancy takes a very considerable hit as you can't use Regen, excruciating wounds or DDoor, also can't use lethal infusion which is good early on.
Ice takes another very large hit since ozoarmour can't be used at all and it's one of the spells that makes investing more heavily in ice than in conj for IM users a good idea.
Tloc loses warp weapon and shroud, while good spells nothing terribly important is lost. Losing PS would however be very bad.
Hexes would lose Spectral Weapon and sblade, and then would lose invis which is a very strong and useful spell. This would severely cripple certain play styles.
Conj would lose the familiar. I don't use it a lot myself but it's a good spell and it's important.

I think invis and PS should not be special cased to not work indeed, as little would be gained from it and a lot would be lost.

and into wrote:True. rPois is not very unique anyway, nor is +3 AC, just seemed to fit with a partially non-living, crystalline being. Neither is necessary though. The "halved magical damage," if too much, could be reduced and/or scale up only with level, but I wanted a dramatic bonus to be paired up with the significant drawbacks of no charms and halved piety gain.

Well the thing is this halved damage thing would be a bit strange. Like if a hell knight casted BoF at you with zero rF you'd take damage as if you had rF+, but if a dragon breathes at you you still take a crapload of damage so you have the scenario where you still want to lug around resistance rings and the like and swap them for a handful of random enemies. Halved "elemental" damage would work just fine I think and would save some annoyances. Similarly banishment should also be something you're immune to since you only want MR for it and you'd want to put on your MR rings before every fight with every ogre mage.
And thinking about it really, just give them the damn resistances as this is basically the same thing and it doesn't affect random monsters like annihilators by making their spears hit your hugely armored and dodgy ass for zero damage every time when they do happen to hit.

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Post Thursday, 12th December 2013, 10:01

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

I like the idea of widespread resistances, but there's no need to give them automatic level 3 fire/ice/magic/negative resistances. Make these resistances level 1; then resistance gear isn't worthless, but it isn't as critical.
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Post Thursday, 12th December 2013, 15:22

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

No ring swapping for resistances, no stopping, 5 5 5 5 5 5, to wait out an adder's poison, etc. So not only is a CD good for listening to music, but it takes away some slowdowns that happen in the game. It gives you everything on your plate right away to challenge the player to survive with the slow movement/piety/apts/exp to earn a hugely resistant Dwarf. Scrolls of Immolation/Self-harming-but-widespread damage spells combo well as he'll take little to no damage.

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Post Thursday, 12th December 2013, 16:05

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

I wonder, when someone will suggest dwarfin' elf?

As far as I can see it now, this crystal please-anything-but-dwarf will pick Chei and then just TAB everything. I mean, "twice as slow" Chei piety gain with a slow character is "helluva fast".
Too OP, RIOT fix it plz.

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Post Saturday, 14th December 2013, 00:53

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

Galefury wrote:Well, they would definitely be banned from Yred. The other gods are debatable, but would probably be okay with nonliving worshipers.

I really like the halved piety gain, it should nicely screw with god choice and use, while preserving the depth of the religion system.


Only a couple of gods care about organic versus inorganic (in terms of a hypothetical golem imbued with a soul), but I'd say that the vast majority of the gods' domains are something which would be incompatible with a machine with no conscious existence.

Fedhas would not find inorganic golems abominable and doesn't really care about claiming anyone's soul, and thus has no particular reason to turn away a crystal golem if it serves his fairly pragmatic interests.

Lugonu would take any tool she could get, even if it's not ideal.

Vehumet might consider a soulless killing machine cool enough to give it a shot.

Pretty much everyone else wouldn't make sense. TSO and Zin care about their subjects' moral development, which is meaningless for something soulless. Yredelemnul and Jiyva would consider an inorganic being to be utterly useless. Kikuubaqudgha and Makhleb expect to claim their worshippers' souls when they die, so a golem is a poor return on investment (maybe slightly less so for Makhleb, who is a bit more aligned with Vehumet's take on destruction for the sake of destruction). Mindless beings can't appreciate knowledge in a way that would satisfy Sif or Ashenzari. Trog's bloodlust, Cheibriados's slothful hedonism, and Okawaru's courage are all concepts which are totally lost on a soulless device. Xom can't get any schadenfreude out of one. Soulless golems can't be healed and can't feel compassion, so Elyvilon probably wouldn't know what to do with one (a soulless healing machine is better than the alternative, but it would probably make more sense if she just saw golems as weapons and would rather destroy them). I'm not really sure what Nemelex wants, but being a trickster toying around with something that can't think or feel can't be all that interesting.

Halved piety gain might also be a nonstarter with any god that includes both piety decay and relatively gradual or infrequent gains, but I don't really know how the numbers work out on that.

Halls Hopper

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Post Sunday, 15th December 2013, 21:08

Re: Species: Crystal Dwarf

This seems like a pretty neat idea. Random and disjointed thoughts and suggestions.

Flavourwise, it doesn't seem half bad. Making it a dwarf seems like a good idea, considering that... well... it feels like a dwarf should. Crystal is also a good idea; although naturally clay, stone, iron and other golemesque materials spring to mind first.

The idea of a highly resistant character, able to take a lot of damage has a large appeal. The elemental resistances might be pushing it a bit much, though. Also, would the artificial aspect of their nature grant the standard nonliving resistances and immunities (confusion, sleep, torment etc.)? Would their crystaline nature give them some form of damage reduction? It seems like you're going for a strong defensive option, so these wouldn't be bad ideas. That said, making them too tough would throw off the game's nebulous concept of balance. Maybe a way to limit healing would work?

Maybe give them no natural regeneration? Or would that make them feel like deep dwarf clones? Perhaps very low health and high regeneration? Make it a struggle to survive each battle but once you do, you quickly recover? Maybe limit other sources of healing? Potions should probably already be unavaliable due to the whole being made of crystal thing. Limiting healing via necromancy (either partially or entirely) might also help limit a crystal dwarf's abilities. I'm just throwing out ideas, but the concept of a creature that's very tough defensively combined with unimpeded healing seems like it'd be a bit TOO good.

Err... soulless is a neat idea. Like, a pretty clever concept in of itself. I've looked at what other people have said, though, and am wondering if it might be an idea to limit god selection in place or as well as this. It's just that the idea of terminator-esque creature doesn't seem to mesh well with certain gods. Yredelmnul springs to mind, as do Fedhas Madash and Jiyva. If there was a dwarf god, I'd suggest you limit religion to that one god (it would certainly be in keeping with the golem-esque origins of crystal dwarves). As that's not an option, I'll just echo the view spoken by others.

Low aptitudes seems like a problem. As someone else says, it could lend the crystal dwarf to be a bit grindy. That said, I think part of the problem is that the concept behind the crystal dwarf is a little unfocussed presently. This is not a bad thing, as it just means that there are plenty of directions that the concept can be taken in. I guess it's just a matter of picking one of those directions and going with it.

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