Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about


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Temple Termagant

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Post Monday, 4th April 2011, 14:37

Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

I will begin by saying this that I have not actually played 0.8 yet, but so far from what I've heard I am expecting to be very disappointed in the way that the developers have nerfed fire elementalists and the way that the game developers try to "balance" the game in general by nerfing useful abilities in general.

Let me preface this by saying that I have been almost exclusively focused on sludge elf fire elementalists. I chose this class/combo, because it seemed to offer some challenge but also not too hard and room for versatility. Originally I thought of playing as a fighter class but the general consensus on the net was that in 0.7 fighters had become too difficult. Playtesting a few MDFi of the truth of this: fighters (who originally had fewer options to begin with) having their armor nerfed made them generally unplayable and un-fun. I've had lots of fun learning about the class/race combo and doing my best to get as far as possible. It's been great.

In 0.8 I'm glad they made armor playable again. But they also decided to "balance" it by making robes enchantable only up to +2 enchantment, removing ac/ev bonuses from randarts, and making sticky flame a one square blast radius (this is after, of course, nerfing ALL ranged spells in general) This doesn't make the game fun, it makes it discouraging to play the new version. And the armor thing doesn't even make much sense to me, the original problem was that armored classes had become too frail, the solution to make casters frailer to make it better does not seem sensible to me. This weird striving for consistency and balance not only doesn't make sense, it's also against the game philosophy that argues for gradients of difficulty and the reason why ogres have never seriously been made more powerful. For me it just makes me not really want to invest the time and energy in updating to the new version and has left a bad taste in my mouth.

Here's the crux of the issue: Crawl is already really really hard. Probably one of the hardest games I've ever played. When new versions come out you naturally want to see all the new shiny things around. But when you spend countless hours figuring out how to make a class work only to find out that they made it nigh unplayable in the new version because your barely survivable character's abilities were "too powerful" is not fun in the slightest. actually I might just go back to 0.4.5 or .5 again the versions I started on just to give me consistency.


On a side note though, I would like to say that there are many many things that sound really fun too. Mummies getting a badly needed upgrade to playable, as are the concepts of phase bats, the new god etc. makes me really want to play mummies now.

Does anyone else feel this way or am I the only one?

For this message the author Radiant has received thanks:
Katak
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Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 4th April 2011, 14:56

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

There's plenty of buffs in 0.8, not just nerfs. Armour as you said, but also earth, and ogres. If you've been playing only FE and spent your time spamming sticky flame, you might find the game harder, but also more interesting.
Regarding the enchantment cap, it was too easy to get a lot of AC even when wearing a robe. And it wasn't really necessary, since EV is still quite powerful.
We've made hundreds of change to the game. You're just considering a handful of them and saying that it makes the game too hard without even having tried it. Feedback from actual play-testing are usually more interesting.
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7hm

Snake Sneak

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Post Monday, 4th April 2011, 19:38

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

Radiant wrote:I will begin by saying this that I have not actually played 0.8 yet ..

Does anyone else feel this way or am I the only one?


Don't complain about it until you play it.

0.8 is a lot better than 0.7
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Halls Hopper

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Post Monday, 4th April 2011, 19:58

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

Radiant wrote:I will begin by saying this that I have not actually played 0.8 yet, but so far from what I've heard I am expecting to be very disappointed in the way that the developers have nerfed fire elementalists and the way that the game developers try to "balance" the game in general by nerfing useful abilities in general.

Let me preface this by saying that I have been almost exclusively focused on sludge elf fire elementalists. I chose this class/combo, because it seemed to offer some challenge but also not too hard and room for versatility. Originally I thought of playing as a fighter class but the general consensus on the net was that in 0.7 fighters had become too difficult. Playtesting a few MDFi of the truth of this: fighters (who originally had fewer options to begin with) having their armor nerfed made them generally unplayable and un-fun. I've had lots of fun learning about the class/race combo and doing my best to get as far as possible. It's been great.

In 0.8 I'm glad they made armor playable again. But they also decided to "balance" it by making robes enchantable only up to +2 enchantment, removing ac/ev bonuses from randarts, and making sticky flame a one square blast radius (this is after, of course, nerfing ALL ranged spells in general) This doesn't make the game fun, it makes it discouraging to play the new version. And the armor thing doesn't even make much sense to me, the original problem was that armored classes had become too frail, the solution to make casters frailer to make it better does not seem sensible to me. This weird striving for consistency and balance not only doesn't make sense, it's also against the game philosophy that argues for gradients of difficulty and the reason why ogres have never seriously been made more powerful. For me it just makes me not really want to invest the time and energy in updating to the new version and has left a bad taste in my mouth.

Here's the crux of the issue: Crawl is already really really hard. Probably one of the hardest games I've ever played. When new versions come out you naturally want to see all the new shiny things around. But when you spend countless hours figuring out how to make a class work only to find out that they made it nigh unplayable in the new version because your barely survivable character's abilities were "too powerful" is not fun in the slightest. actually I might just go back to 0.4.5 or .5 again the versions I started on just to give me consistency.


On a side note though, I would like to say that there are many many things that sound really fun too. Mummies getting a badly needed upgrade to playable, as are the concepts of phase bats, the new god etc. makes me really want to play mummies now.

Does anyone else feel this way or am I the only one?


Radiant-

Thank you for your post. While I initially shared a lot of your animosity toward the latest changes, I have been playing 0.8.0 like mad lately and I must say that the changes will not be cause for concern.

Sticky flame, while limited to 1 square, NEVER misses now and is still powerful.
Sticky flame now causes sheep (and ONLY sheep) to catch each other on fire, which is hilarious. It is now a requirement to exclude sheep packs until you learn sticky flame (even on your fighter-types), just so you can set them all aflame with one cast.
Sandblast is now quite useable, as well.
Pure fighter-types are playable again.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Monday, 4th April 2011, 21:33

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

Katak wrote:Sandblast is now quite useable, as well.

'useable' in this case meaning 'will carry you to the end of Lair if you have enough stones' :D
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Snake Sneak

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Post Monday, 4th April 2011, 22:53

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

I like the new sticky flame. Play a SpFE or FeFE and see how awesome the not missing is. Step 1, catch on fire maybe get hit. Step 2: run away.

Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2011, 03:50

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

I haven't actually played 0.7, having jumped from 0.6 to 0.8. But 0.8 does seem a lot easier than 0.6; now I can reliably get a couple of runes at least if I'm paying attention in an average nonsigmund-d2 game and have even won, when before I hadn't even seen a rune. I don't really know why. Do agree that FE need a little buff though; maybe lower fireball down a spell level? Since it is crap and everything.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2011, 07:08

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

ghend wrote:... maybe lower fireball down a spell level? Since it is crap and everything.


Fireball doesn't miss either, and has an area of effect, so it is awesome. I agree though, it should be level 5. Or Fire bolt should be level 5. But both of them shouldn't be 6.
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Zot Zealot

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2011, 09:42

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

7hm wrote:0.8 is a lot better than 0.7


This!

Really.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2011, 11:17

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

7hm wrote:0.8 is a lot better than 0.7

True! Want some proof? All of my wins are on 0.8. :lol:

Temple Termagant

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2011, 17:04

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

Well,


I think I'm a little more reassured now. And I haven't played it yet, it's true, so maybe I shouldn't judge until I've tried it out.

I also don't want to sound like I'm panning the developers in all senses, because for the vast majority of the time, I've found the changes to be very, very welcome. New Gods, Better commands, upgrading mummies and Ogres (finally!), removing chain paralysis all sounds wonderful, and the tilesets are amazing.

I'm still nervous about the armor nerf though. sticky flames is one spell and although the game gets harder when you have few reliable ways of killing things from afar, I think that there are enough other conjurations and wands out there that I normally don't use to make up for it (also throw flame is pretty powerful all by itself).

After 8.0 comes out I'll try it out and see.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2011, 18:42

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

Radiant wrote:After 8.0 comes out I'll try it out and see.


It is out; not 100% stable and changes for bugs and alterations, but it's available to play. I've been playing it for weeks over version 7.

Go to the Downloads page, scroll down to 0.8 and development builds and get what you need and update to the latest daily version when you can. Play and if you find a bug, record it in the bug tracker. Don't wait for the actual release because who knows when that'll be and you're better off playing with the cool new toys anyway.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2011, 19:33

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

Radiant wrote:Well,


I think I'm a little more reassured now. And I haven't played it yet, it's true, so maybe I shouldn't judge until I've tried it out.

I also don't want to sound like I'm panning the developers in all senses, because for the vast majority of the time, I've found the changes to be very, very welcome. New Gods, Better commands, upgrading mummies and Ogres (finally!), removing chain paralysis all sounds wonderful, and the tilesets are amazing.

I'm still nervous about the armor nerf though. sticky flames is one spell and although the game gets harder when you have few reliable ways of killing things from afar, I think that there are enough other conjurations and wands out there that I normally don't use to make up for it (also throw flame is pretty powerful all by itself).

After 8.0 comes out I'll try it out and see.



Radiant-

I just ascended in 0.8.0 with a 'nearly' pure fighter, who had 20 armour skill in the end and near 50 AC at his peak, with +7 crystal plate. He was untouchable by standard attacks. Doesn't seem to be any problem with armour to me ;)

Shoals Surfer

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2011, 20:11

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

I haven't followed Crawl developement lately, what buffs did ogres an mummies get?

Snake Sneak

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2011, 21:15

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

If Ogres finally got an upgrade, its all good in the hood.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 5th April 2011, 21:59

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

Radiant wrote:I'm still nervous about the armor nerf though.

Armour has been buffed in 0.8. Quick history recall: In 0.5, armour was grossly overpowered. The big nerf was in 0.6. There was a little buff in 0.7, but it was still very weak. Decent buff in 0.8 which should finally (I hope) make it balanced.

asdu wrote:I haven't followed Crawl developement lately, what buffs did ogres an mummies get?

The buff to ogres is quite recent. +1HP per level, and aptitudes have been changed from +2 fighting, +1 M&F to +3 fighting, +3 M&F. I don't think mummy has been changed in 0.8. As far as I can tell, the latest buff they had dates back to january 2010 (bf6576b). So it was during 0.6 development.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Wednesday, 6th April 2011, 15:50

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

"I haven't played 0.8"

Try it.

In many key aspects it's a lot better than 0.7.

Maybe gone a bit overboard but I'm sure anything too powerful will be nerfed again for the proper tournament in August.

FE sticky flame is hardly a nerf, more a redirection of the spell.

Other buffs - many, many EE buffs.
Armour is usable.
Zin got an overhaul.
Unrandarts show up a lot.
Enchant armour became better for heavy armour chars.
Slime is playable.

There were a few nerfs as well to what the developers considered broken play, but that's always going to come.
Go kiku!

Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 7th April 2011, 04:41

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

galehar wrote:
Radiant wrote:I'm still nervous about the armor nerf though.

Armour has been buffed in 0.8. Quick history recall: In 0.5, armour was grossly overpowered. The big nerf was in 0.6. There was a little buff in 0.7, but it was still very weak. Decent buff in 0.8 which should finally (I hope) make it balanced.

asdu wrote:I haven't followed Crawl developement lately, what buffs did ogres an mummies get?

The buff to ogres is quite recent. +1HP per level, and aptitudes have been changed from +2 fighting, +1 M&F to +3 fighting, +3 M&F. I don't think mummy has been changed in 0.8. As far as I can tell, the latest buff they had dates back to january 2010 (bf6576b). So it was during 0.6 development.


I need to grab the latest version, cause this most be very recent. Sounds like ogres are more viable! =D

Also 0.8 really is a good upgrade.

Draconians are a bit more buffed, armour is better, it is more fleshed out. Just give it a try, and if you still think it is raw, just go back to 7 for a few games and feel the difference.
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Zot Zealot

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Post Thursday, 7th April 2011, 10:39

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

casmith789 wrote:Slime is playable.


I am so happy about this. It's still dangerous, just not painful.
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Spider Stomper

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Post Thursday, 7th April 2011, 11:23

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

casmith789 wrote:Zin got an overhaul.


Again? Is this something that happened recently or is it something I've been playing for a while? From the wiki it's kind of hard to see which changes are in and not...
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Post Thursday, 7th April 2011, 12:33

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

Sorry for the mess with Zin. Since I designed the "new Zin", I also take the blame.
Recite is much better now, in effects and also in flavour. This was done by Eronarn (not of the devteam), a great help.
There's also Imprison now, which which should make for more tactical options.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 7th April 2011, 14:57

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

joellercoaster wrote:
casmith789 wrote:Slime is playable.


I am so happy about this. It's still dangerous, just not painful.


Damage from walls was changed in 0.8? Im still using 0.7. tho i didnt had much problems there with my last 3 zot ready chars. Imagine felid char would be hit pretty hard there in 0.7.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Thursday, 7th April 2011, 17:15

Re: Very disappointed about the changes I've heard about

The biggest change is that heavy armor is actually a viable defense now. That is huge for might-based characters.

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