Scrolls of Enchant Weapon and Unarmed

[epsilon]

This is more like flavour proposal because I don't sure if it wouldn't break game balance, but I got this idea from a message about briefly glowing hands, displayed by mentioned scrolls.
What if reading scrolls of Enchant Weapon will give character Claws mutation? For example, one level of this mutation for three scrolls used.
Also, I think it would be interesting to add branded unarmed mutations, possibly forced by scroll of Brand Weapon. Something like "Your hands are composed of burning magma" or "Your hands radiate piercing chill" or "After shaking hands with Sigmund you decided to never ever wash them again" etc.
I understand, that this will make UC less unique and somewhat blur differences between UC and weapons but I think, it still will be unique and interesting mechanic.

[Igxfl]

UC is already really good. Claws are really good, too -- see Trolls. I think if you could ?enchant yourself claws, let alone UC brands, weapons would be obsolete.

[Mankeli]

(After the weak very early game) UC is already extremely great even without forms or claws. So I'm sorry to say this but balancewise this proposal is terrible.

[nordetsa]

Well enchant weapon and brand weapon affects 'weapon,' so I don't see why it should affect bare hands.

[XuaXua]

No, as claws disables gloves/gauntlets.

[BlackSheep]

Claws 3 disables gloves.

And no, making EW scrolls interact with unarmed combat isn't a good idea, and it certainly would make neither the scrolls nor unarmed combat more unique.

[reaver]

No, as claws disables gloves/gauntlets.

Claws currently provide +2 base damage to UC attacks. Base damage is roughly worth twice as much as slaying. So this is the equivalent of saying that a guaranteed +0 +12 ring of slaying won't break the game because +1 rings of protection are better. Even a +3 ring of protection/rF is worse than a theoretical +0 +12 ring of slaying.

Also you can get Unarmed Brands. You just need transmutations to get them. Other than Trolls or Ghouls most characters that used unarmed are Transmuters.

[Sandman25]

After reading my unarmed Tr of Chei dealt 121 damage to Orb of Fire in a single hit I believe rings of slaying are overestimated for Unarmed.

[dck]

You believe wrong.

[Volteccer_Jack]

At 27 unarmed skill and 15 strength, claws 3 is better than a +0+10 ring of slaying. As strength goes up, claws get even better. That is to say that claws 3 is ridiculously friggin' strong.

Regardless, making UC more like weapon combat is bad idea.

I believe rings of slaying are overestimated

lol

[Sandman25]

I don't know what to say here, 121 damage per attack kind of makes it obvious to me.
With low base damage (like daggers' 4) ring of slaying 0,+9 is very powerful because it increases final damage from d8 to d8 + d9 (roughly), with GSC (base damage 22) or Troll (base damage 36 at UC 27) it is not that great because it can increase damage from d120 to d120 + d9. Run wiz mode tests if you don't trust me

[BlackSheep]

We're way offtopic, but hopefully this will head off more discussion:
You're citing an example of a character with end game levels of training, extremely favorable mutations and stat distribution, with full Chei stat bonuses. Yes, in this narrow instance a ring of slaying may seem superfluous, but most characters don't fall into any of the categories listed earlier.

[Sandman25]

We're way offtopic, but hopefully this will head off more discussion:
You're citing an example of a character with end game levels of training, extremely favorable mutations and stat distribution, with full Chei stat bonuses. Yes, in this narrow instance a ring of slaying may seem superfluous, but most characters don't fall into any of the categories listed earlier.

Yes, you are right of course. Sorry for off-topic. I found it weird that some changes are rejected because they are "superior" to slaying. Slaying is not that great very late game for many characters not just Tr of Chei and we don't have 9 (or whatever) scrolls of enchant weapon on D1 either. It can be balanced by raising the number, for example, increase base damage by 1 for every 8 EW scrolls, up to 5 damage max.

[Mankeli]

I don't know what to say here, 121 damage per attack kinds of makes it obvious to me.
With low base damage (like daggers' 4) ring of slaying 0,+9 is very powerful because it increases final damage from d8 to d8 + d9 (roughly), with GSC (base damage 22) or Troll (base damage 36 at UC 27) it is not that great because it can increase damage from d120 to d120 + d9. Run wiz mode tests if you don't trust me

With daggers and especially quickblades slaying is good because you get to roll that slaying as often as you get to attack which is pretty often when you are wielding quickblades (also any auxiliary attacks you may have are also rolled every time you attack and get the slaying bonus!). With enough slaying, quickblade of holy wrath damage will eventually match even dragon from when fighting against demons and undead.

Unarmed min delay without shields and armour penalties is 5 (compare this to say, great mace min delay) so slaying is really great with unarmed as well.

Edit. ninja'ed. And of course slaying is great for faster lower base damage things because they get over the AC hump easier. And BTW I think this thread is heading for Yiuf land anyways since I'm not seeing how we can have flaming claw unarmed on every PC that hits zot.

[Siegurt]

Although it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility to have a consumable that bestowed temporary claws (like the Beastly Appendage spell used to do sometimes) I'm not sure either ?EW or ?brand weapon would be the vehicle to make that happen.

[Lasty]

Claws currently provide +2 base damage to UC attacks. Base damage is roughly worth twice as much as slaying. So this is the equivalent of saying that a guaranteed +0 +12 ring of slaying won't break the game because +1 rings of protection are better. Even a +3 ring of protection/rF is worse than a theoretical +0 +12 ring of slaying.

After reading my unarmed Tr of Chei dealt 121 damage to Orb of Fire in a single hit I believe rings of slaying are overestimated for Unarmed.

You're making reaver's point here, and then pretending that doing so somehow defeats his point. He is saying that claws 3 do nuts damage -- damage roughly equivalent to a enormous ring of slaying. You're responding by saying that your character with claws 3 already does enough damage, so slaying isn't necessary.

As reaver argued and you affirmed, claws 3 is an absurd amount of damage. It needs no boost, and it shouldn't be handed out to every character.

I found it weird that some changes are rejected because they are "superior" to slaying. Slaying is not that great very late game for many characters not just Tr of Chei and we don't have 9 (or whatever) scrolls of enchant weapon on D1 either. It can be balanced by raising the number, for example, increase base damage by 1 for every 8 EW scrolls, up to 5 damage max.

You're missing your own point, now. As you just pointed out, a late game character can deal out absurd amount of damage, potentially dealing 121 damage in a single blow to end-game monsters. A character that does that level of offense doesn't need boosted offense. They have already reached the pinnacle of offense, and that is fine. This isn't Diablo, where the goal is just to grind increasingly trivial increases to attack power forever.

By the time a +0/+12 ring of slaying no longer interests you, you no longer need any buffs to your offense.

[Siegurt]

Not saying I agree or disagree here, but for comparison, the electrocution brand is the equivalent of +11 slaying damage (in terms of average damage done), and distortion is the equivalent of about +12 slaying (in terms of average extra damage done, not counting all it's weird effects)

Also for comparison, a quickblade of holy wrath would need about 20 slaying against demons and undead to get to the roughly same damage as the d120 damage/hit for UC mentioned above (Presuming 3 hits/round quickblade and 2 hits/round with UC, and maxed fighting and short blades, and 20 each of str/dex) Which is difficult, but not impossible by any means to achieve.

[Sandman25]

No, I am saying that I disagree with "Even a +3 ring of protection/rF is worse than a theoretical +0 +12 ring of slaying."

[galehar]

End game balance of maxxed out characters isn't very relevant to judge the proposal IMO. Differenciation is. The proposal is undesirable, but not because of balance.

[pubby]

I'd prefer if the scroll didn't mention glowing hands when read. It only adds confusion.

[BlackSheep]

"A ghostly green/red/yellow vision of a <random weapon> appears in your <hand> briefly. It was a scroll of...

[roctavian]

Even "As you read the scroll, it crumbles to dust. It was a scroll of..." is enough, really.