Air utility tweak- Static Cling

[TeshiAlair]

Currently, air elementalists frustrate me because their good spells are REALLY good, but theres a few spells that are just so situational (flight, static discharge). I'd like to propose a tweak:

Change swiftness to Tailwind. Gives you a very short burst of speed instead of a long duration. Currently Swiftness is just so damn good, it is practically a no brainer.

To give back some utility, I propose the following change be made to static discharge- when you cast it, enemies hit that are next to walls are briefly stuck to them, with flying monsters being stuck for a longer duration.

This way, Tailwind is less useful against fast enemies(which are pretty frequently fliers), but a smart static discharge provides another escape option.

[and into]

Currently, air elementalists frustrate me because their good spells are REALLY good, but theres a few spells that are just so situational (flight, static discharge). I'd like to propose a tweak:

Change swiftness to Tailwind. Gives you a very short burst of speed instead of a long duration. Currently Swiftness is just so damn good, it is practically a no brainer.

To give back some utility, I propose the following change be made to static discharge- when you cast it, enemies hit that are next to walls are briefly stuck to them, with flying monsters being stuck for a longer duration.

This way, Tailwind is less useful against fast enemies(which are pretty frequently fliers), but a smart static discharge provides another escape option.

Swiftness could definitely use a nerf aside from the stealth malus that was added not too long ago. I don't think the name needs to be changed, but having it give a short burst of speed (perhaps also causing exhaustion, which has to wear off before recast, to prevent spamming) may be a step in the right direction.

As for static discharge, I like the idea, but I'm not sure it is necessary. Static discharge has been buffed a couple times lately and is pretty good right now, although the nature of it (more powerful when a few enemies have already closed in) means that tankier AEs will get more use out of it. I think that's okay.

However, if a small boost to static discharge along the lines of what you suggest is made, I'd recommend just giving it a chance to stun enemies. Making the stun subject to an adjacent wall would invite tedious behavior as you walk enemies that aren't faster to you near walls, then hit them with static for the wall-stick effect. But a chance to stun (wearing off quickly or resistable scaling with targets' HD so as not to be overpowered) could work reasonably well.

[indspenceable]

+1 swiftness giving exhaustion. Other than troggies there are no characters I wouldn't get swiftness on, ever.

[XuaXua]

+1 swiftness giving exhaustion. Other than troggies there are no characters I wouldn't get swiftness on, ever.

Cheibrieadosies?

[Arrhythmia]

+1 swiftness giving exhaustion. Other than troggies there are no characters I wouldn't get swiftness on, ever.

Spriggans?

[and into]

Yes of course there are some characters you wouldn't get swiftness on, but that doesn't change the fact that the spell is overpowered and problematic and something you'd want to have on every non-spriggan whose god doesn't hate it. Let's try not to be so pedantic toward a post the main point of which (if not every last tiny technical detail of which) is completely valid.

[siprus]

What about changing it to level 3 or 4 spell (i would think 3 would be better) This would make it more of an investment.

Though I personally don't usually get swiftness with very heavily armored guys (untill everything important is maxed).

[TeshiAlair]

My issue with SD is that if you are surrounded by enemies, typically 1. You dun goofed or 2. Something is summon spamming you, which generally means you don't need quite as much damage. Using it as a primary damage spell, in my experience, doesn't really work out so well, so why not add some utility?

The walls thing I just thought was funny and made it more situational, but I can definitely see it being too complex without much value.

[Wahaha]

You can use SD while not surrounded too, and it works well.

[and into]

Yeah, SD is not a power spell by any means, but it serves its function (reasonably) well, which is all that it needs to do. Deep Elf and Tengu air elementalists usually won't like it so much, but their aptitudes allow for earlier lightning bolt anyway. SD is pretty great for beefier AEs, though, like Draconians, Naga, Demonspawn, etc. I think this is fine. The book of air already has tons of utility, including excellent means of escape.

Making swiftness level 3 or 4 wouldn't change much. It is still a very powerful effect, it is cheap, and it encourages a particularly tedious form of kiting that isn't really necessary for AEs (at least not anymore, since their lower-level damage spells—shock and SD—have gotten some buffs over the last five or six versions). Let it give a short burst of speed for tactical escapes, with malus to stealth and exhaustion, and keep it level 2 charms/air. That's still plenty strong and useful for a level two spell, but now its use (and whether or not to get it on characters casting spells when it is available) actually maybe requires a modicum of thought and tactics.

[jejorda2]

Static discharge ignores EV and AC, right? It's like a mutli-target freeze.

[BlackSheep]

If it hit automatically, sure, but its targeting is a bit erratic.

[roctavian]

Yeah, SD is a decent spell already but it's doubly unreliable (self-damage plus not knowing how many enemies it'll hit) which makes it quite unattractive, especially when Lightning Bolt is so close. The self-damage is so small that it's nearly irrelevant, but it carries too much of a "don't-cast-this" psychological effect. I think it would get more usage if that aspect was removed.

Also, we still need some kind of monster that comes in a band and casts Static Discharge so they can hit the player through each other.

[and into]

Yeah, SD is a decent spell already but it's doubly unreliable (self-damage plus not knowing how many enemies it'll hit) which makes it quite unattractive, especially when Lightning Bolt is so close. The self-damage is so small that it's nearly irrelevant, but it carries too much of a "don't-cast-this" psychological effect. I think it would get more usage if that aspect was removed.

Also, we still need some kind of monster that comes in a band and casts Static Discharge so they can hit the player through each other.

Sky beasts could have this property when they spawn in *packs*: More than two in LOS will cause static to build up between them and discharge.

Keep distribution in low D, only single sky beasts spawn; in mid-D and vaults, they come in packs. I like the idea of a monster that has markedly different behavior / threat when it comes in a pack (rather than just multiplying same threat by X, where X = size of pack)—slimes do this nicely—and sky beasts could be a different take on this effect. Plus a more robust electric threat than the (very occasional) lightning bolt as early game ends and throughout mid-game might be warranted.

EDIT: Could also be the basis for an interesting sky-themed/electrical Lair 8 ending. Might spice things up a bit.

[Jeremiah]

I think it could be quite interesting to have a Tailwind spell that makes you move quickly, but only in one direction (moving after casting the spell would make the 'wind' blow in this direction and any further movement in that direction would be faster.)

There could be some kind of cooldown type effect so that once cast, the wind direction couldn't be changed again for a while, so you can't keep recasting it every time you get to a corner.

[1010011010]

swiftness/tailwind produces clouds that boosts speed to those who know swiftness (and maybe flying monsters). The amount of clouds produced depends on spell power, clouds are completely transparent (no fog effect), clouds disappear quickly.

pros
-speed boost is tied to location, running away results in a speed boost until you left the imminent area
-at low power levels, the 1 turn of casting would negate the speed boost and drain MP for no real benefit
-at high levels, the player should be able/close to casting haste which is superior in most ways.
-some monsters also benefit from these clouds making the spell more situational.
-having clouds makes it more obvious to be an air spell.

cons
-poor balance between cloud generation and spell power can result in tedious repeated casting.
-clouds can be abused to stop other clouds (although this could be seen as another tactical use).

[dck]

-at low power levels, the 1 turn of casting would negate the speed boost and drain MP for no real benefit

How making a spell useless in the most important part of the game a pro?

[jejorda2]

What about a spell that just moves you one space per turn in a chosen direction for a time duration, and allows you to act as you will? So if you're running east, and it's blowing you east, your moves plus it's moves help you move faster. Or it can move you east every turn, and you can melee or shoot arrows or cast fireball or channel mana or what have you. But you don't get to cancel it, and you don't get to pick a new direction.

[1010011010]

How making a spell useless in the most important part of the game a pro?

it would be useless to cast after the first. the first can be used to gain space.

What about a spell that just moves you one space per turn in a chosen direction for a time duration, and allows you to act as you will? So if you're running east, and it's blowing you east, your moves plus it's moves help you move faster. Or it can move you east every turn, and you can melee or shoot arrows or cast fireball or channel mana or what have you. But you don't get to cancel it, and you don't get to pick a new direction.

sounds better than the current spell (which is very good as it stands).

[Lasty]

What about a spell that just moves you one space per turn in a chosen direction for a time duration, and allows you to act as you will? So if you're running east, and it's blowing you east, your moves plus it's moves help you move faster. Or it can move you east every turn, and you can melee or shoot arrows or cast fireball or channel mana or what have you. But you don't get to cancel it, and you don't get to pick a new direction.

This would effectively give you twice as many actions as you normally get. As long as you want to be moving in a certain direction (e.g. escaping), this spell is more powerful than Haste.

[jejorda2]

1) You don't always want to continue moving in a particular direction, though the situation isn't rare.
2) The time per move could be spellpower dependent or just slower than once per 10 aut.

So situationally better than haste sounds like a good thing to me (though it probably doesn't need to be as easy to cast as swiftness). Haste is nearly always good for the character, which is bad for the game.

[BlackSheep]

It would be a ridiculously good spell for archer characters.

[Lasty]

Or blasters. Or anyone who wants distance between themselves and something.

[and into]

This should probably be split (or thread name changed) to "Balancing swiftness" because that's essentially what the thread has become about.

I don't think we need to introduce quirky new mechanics. The biggest problems with swiftness are

1.) can encourage a tedious level of kiting and recasting and kiting, so that a lot of melee enemies that should in concert be presenting a variety of challenges all become pre-0.12 jellies. (Yes sometimes kiting is a totally legit tactic, it needn't be removed entirely, but swiftness as currently implemented basically makes kiting the best tactic against the majority of enemies in the game, the limiting factor here really is that actually doing that is so bloody boring). This is a bigger problem with swiftness than with haste.

2.) requires little to no thought about when / how to use it. You just cast it and then you can run better. This is a problem that swiftness shares with some other spells, most notably haste.

3.) (in part because of 1 and 2) nearly everyone wants it and gets it (also problem swiftness shares with repel missiles, blink, and the like)

4.) unbalanced—too powerful


Of these, I actually find 1 and 2 to be the biggest problems, because they have the most impact on game play. Rather than introduce clouds and all sorts of other new things to implement, which could easily break the spell (either make it more powerful, unintentionally, or make it useless), I honestly think that simply going "short term, significant burst of speed with exhaustion" is a simple, thematic change.

With that change, swiftness could still be used somewhat offensively, to reposition for better terrain (retreat to corridor because new enemies showed up, duck behind corner because orc priest) or to get a couple more rounds of arrows out before enemies close to melee. But no more tedious kiting, because exhaustion prevents recasting. Swiftness would remain a strong escape option, especially early on, but not a mindless one—you can't spam it to run around the level endlessly, so you are limited in how much distance you can put between yourself and your enemies, which means that enemy speed and terrain still matter. Swiftness would still be a low-level power spell, but not one that is mindless in how you use it.

And for the record, so long as there are these "staple" spells in Crawl, it is better that they are low-level and easy to find (that is, available in multiple books). Hence apportation, blink, repel missiles, and swiftness, etc.

[dck]

But after swift ends and you're exhausted if whatever you were swifting away from is speed 10 then the vast majority of users can just walk away from it until exh wears off and then swift again. Realistically this would depend on exhaustion length but if it's something short like DDoor then walking away is still a good idea and if it's huge like berserk then good job, now people have to hit 5 yet for another reason that isn't directly related to their HP because nobody is going to walk around with their swiftness not ready if they can cast it.

[and into]

But after swift ends and you're exhausted if whatever you were swifting away from is speed 10 then the vast majority of users can just walk away from it until exh wears off and then swift again. Realistically this would depend on exhaustion length but if it's something short like DDoor then walking away is still a good idea and if it's huge like berserk then good job, now people have to hit 5 yet for another reason that isn't directly related to their HP because nobody is going to walk around with their swiftness not ready if they can cast it.

That's a good point. Against speed 10 (i.e., vast majority of enemies) it would not eliminate the problem I want to eliminate. I certainly wouldn't want exhaustion to be so long that extra resting becomes needed.

One possibility is to have it give short, intense burst of speed, followed by temporary (short) exhuastion and movement-speed-only slowing effect (i.e., your actions are same speed, but your movement is somewhere around naga). You'd recover quickly, but not so quickly that you can spam it to outrun an average-speed enemy indefinitely. But you can use it to reach better terrain or dart up/down stairs or use escape hatches in order to flee, or to create enough space to fling a few more spells or projectiles at an approaching melee enemy.

[Sandman25]

Make Swiftness add contamination like Haste does. It solves 2 problems:
1) Swiftness + Haste is more difficult to have simultaneously (it makes you glow like Haste + Invisibility do)
2) Swiftness is not useful late game if you have Haste (this is good for level 2 spell)

[Lasty]

FWIW, I would love to see all charms add glow. I think it would be a flavorful way to prevent the level of buff-stacking that's so often optimal in the current system. Not all buffs would necessarily need to give the same amount of contamination.

If this were to be adopted, I would like to see a new glow color that triggers when you're getting close to yellow glow, so that you know when you're reaching your safe glow limit.

[and into]

FWIW, I would love to see all charms add glow. I think it would be a flavorful way to prevent the level of buff-stacking that's so often optimal in the current system. Not all buffs would necessarily need to give the same amount of contamination.

If this were to be adopted, I would like to see a new glow color that triggers when you're getting close to yellow glow, so that you know when you're reaching your safe glow limit.

I'd support this. Other non-charms buff spells could be handled on a case-by-case basis for whether and how much glow they add.

[indspenceable]

FWIW, I would love to see all charms add glow. I think it would be a flavorful way to prevent the level of buff-stacking that's so often optimal in the current system. Not all buffs would necessarily need to give the same amount of contamination.

If this were to be adopted, I would like to see a new glow color that triggers when you're getting close to yellow glow, so that you know when you're reaching your safe glow limit.

Without more indication of glow this would make me so sad. As it is, I accidentally cast invis too soon sometimes, and the penalty for getting glow is WAY too harsh for no warning IMO. I guess you're supposed to know to never cast anything that gives you some glow when you have any contamination?

More indication of glow danger would be good.

[Sandman25]

I guess you're supposed to know to never cast anything that gives you some glow when you have any contamination?

Correct, it minimizes risk of glowing.

More indication of glow danger would be good.

This is unlikely to happen since even more important things are hidden. This is DCSS' philosophy.

[dck]

I guess you're supposed to know to never cast anything that gives you some glow when you have any contamination?

Not really, glow doesn't normally matter much because mostly it's gained by extending haste and normally the alternatives to "maybe getting enough contam to maybe get one mutation that has a big chance to be irrelevant" are more severe. Similarly if you cblink a lot or hastecblink a couple of times you'll get it but hell, you're using some really powerful tools right there so either you were playing like a huge fool and needed to use very exotic ways to get out or you're doing some strange stuff in circumstances under which glow is likely the least of your concerns.
Guessing at contam levels for invis is pretty bad and can of course go a bit wrong but it's still hardly ever important since you don't normally use invis that way.

[and into]

I guess you're supposed to know to never cast anything that gives you some glow when you have any contamination?

Correct, it minimizes risk of glowing.

More indication of glow danger would be good.

This is unlikely to happen since even more important things are hidden. This is DCSS' philosophy.

Better indication of glow would be within DCSS philosophy, I think it is simply felt that it is not (generally) needed. If all (or nearly all) charm spells started giving glow in semi-randomized ranges varying spell to spell, I think it would become necessary, and then it would just be a question of how to display it. A few different colors for the "glow" text would probably suffice, along the lines of what Lasty recommended. What would be against DCSS design philosophy is something like giving the numeric formula for how much glow something adds and how much glow dissipates over time, because DCSS wants to spare its players from doing those kinds of calculations.

[indspenceable]

I guess you're supposed to know to never cast anything that gives you some glow when you have any contamination?

Not really, glow doesn't normally matter much because mostly it's gained by extending haste and normally the alternatives to "maybe getting enough contam to maybe get one mutation that has a big chance to be irrelevant" are more severe. Similarly if you cblink a lot or hastecblink a couple of times you'll get it but hell, you're using some really powerful tools right there so either you were playing like a huge fool and needed to use very exotic ways to get out or you're doing some strange stuff in circumstances under which glow is likely the least of your concerns.
Guessing at contam levels for invis is pretty bad and can of course go a bit wrong but it's still hardly ever important since you don't normally use invis that way.

So the issue I have is: cblink, haste, invis all provide different levels of glow. However just by playing the game there's nothing that indicates this until you mess up. Like, I can cast haste pretty much immediately after it wearing off and I won't glow, but if I do that with invis I will (sometimes?) (I think). Basically, I have multiple wins that depended on each spell, and I still have no idea how either of them work in terms of glow, which is frustrating.

I'm not arguing for specifics, but as far as I can tell Invis glow isn't randomized; I was told that it would be stupid to have a warning for casting a spell that would cause you to glow when I asked about it in IRC. I guess maybe I'm missing something, but everyone seems to have different and contradicting opinions about this.