Werewolves: the Bifurcated Ones

[bcadren]

New Version:
Cannot worship good gods; but can worship Fedhas Madash. Mild silver vulnerability x1.25. No Holy Wrath vuln. (Evil creature; not demon or undead).

Flavour: Subrace of elves that dabbled so far into Transmutations that they mutated themselves into forced transmutation into wolves. The curse of the werewolf caused their human bodies to become very opposite to their wolf bodies and they must adapt to two playstyles.

Form is switched on level up for level 8 and lower.
From level 8 to level 26; it is switched on a random amount of XP between 10% and 50% of the way to the next level.
At level 27 it is switched at a random value between 100000 and 250000 XP.
Transformation is an instant (like a polymorph), but causes a small amount of (non-fatal) pain (for flavour, mostly).

Human
Herbivore III
Clarity
Uses normal equipment.

Wolf
Carnivore III
Saprovore II
Claws I
Fangs II
Fur III
Berserkitis III
Acute Vision (SInv)
Uses Jewelry Only. (Felid restrictions)

While wolf, the human's armour, gloves, helmet and shield will be melded to you. If cursed; these items still count as being bound to Ashenzari while in the form that can't use them.

Stats:
Start (Human):
STR 4; INT 10; DEX 6

On switching forms the INT and DEX shuffle; meaning the wolf's base is:
STR 4; INT 6; DEX 10

Gains 1 INT (if human on level up); 1 DEX (if wolf on level up). Every 3 levels.

Apts:
Formatted as human/wolf. If there's only one value; it doesn't change OR the wolf can't train it (like weapons and armour)
Fighting: -1/2, Short: 1, Long: 2!, Axes: -2, Maces: -2, Polearms: -2, Staves: 1, Slings: -1, Bows: 3!, Xbows: -1, Throw: 1, Armour: 1, Dodge: -3*/3, Stealth: -3*/3, Shields: 1, UC: -3*/1!, Splcast: 2/-2, Conj: 0, Hexes: -2/2, Charms: 2/-2, Summ: 2/-2, Nec: -2/2!, Tloc: 2/-2, Tmut: 4!, Fire: 2/-2, Ice: -2/2, Air: -2/2, Earth: 2/-2, Poison: 0, Inv: 1/-1*, Evo: 2/-2, Exp: -1, HP: 2, MP: 1

When the aptitudes switch; it acts as if it was trained in the current aptitude and not necessarily the one it was trained in. Also race is immune to countertraining.

Apts and mutations are less extreme than old versions; but it keeps the gimmick of forcing players to change their playstyle after certain XP gates.

Old Draft:

Spoiler: show

I developed my own idea for a werewolf, then read the ones on the wiki to make sure mine is sufficiently different; now I'm proposing it. Every 1000 turns werewolf players experience 1d10 pain (never lethal), loses 10d100 nutrition with 1d12 turns of paralysis and switch forms. The 'curse' to change boosts their piety gain with Ashenzari while in wolf form. Also good gods refuse werewolves, but as they are not undead; Fedhas welcomes them.

Wolf form; plays like a Felid (no weapons, no throwing, no armor); also banned from transmutations while in this form:

Start off at level 1; gain a levels with XP level:
Claws
Fangs
Fur
Fast Movement
Robust

Werewolves also develop a random two of these:
Regeneration
Nightstalker
Bloodlust (unique version of Berserkitis, higher chance of triggering, but only triggers in melee combat) {20%, 35%, 50%}
Wild Magic
Powered by Death

Completed fixed:
Carnivore III
Saprovore I
Fast Metabolism III
Low MP II
Fixed Mutation III
See Invisible
Alpha (enemy dogs with HD lower than your XP level may recognize you as your leader and become friendly)

Receives increased damage from silver and holy wrath.

Aptitudes:
Fighting: 4, Short: N/A, Long: N/A, Axes: N/A, Maces: N/A, Polearms: N/A, Staves: N/A, Slings: N/A, Bows: N/A, Xbows: N/A, Throw: N/A, Armour: N/A, Dodge: 4, Stealth: 3, Shields: N/A, UC: 5, Splcast: -2, Conj: -2, Hexes: 3, Charms: -4, Summ: -3, Nec: 2, Tloc: 1, Tmut: N/A, Fire: -5, Ice: +3, Air: +3, Earth: -5, Poison: -2, Inv: 0, Evo: N/A, Exp: -3, HP: 2, MP: 2

Humanoid form. Plays like a normal humanoid. Note opposites where applicable;

Developed with level:
Clarity
Slow Metabolism
Methodical Magic (lowers chance of failure, at cost of 5-15% power)
High MP
Passive Mapping

Completed fixed:
Malmutate resistance (When an enemy effect would cause a bad mutation, you instead become experience pain and enter a temporary monstrous form; which consists of the wolf's mutations, with the apts. and human abilities of the humanoid form).
Slow Healing III
Slow Movement II
Herbivore III
Frail II

Receives normal damage from silver and holy wrath.

Aptitudes:
Fighting: -3, Short: -1, Long: -2, Axes: -2, Maces: -1, Polearms: -2, Staves: 3, Slings: 1, Bows: 2, Xbows: 1, Throw: -1, Armour: 2, Dodge: -2, Stealth: -1, Shields: 2, UC: -3, Splcast: 4, Conj: 2, Hexes: 2, Charms: 2, Summ: 2, Nec: -1, Tloc: -2, Tmut: 3, Fire: 4, Ice: -5, Air: -5, Earth: 4, Poison: 1, Inv: 0, Evo: 2, Exp: -3, HP: 2, MP: 2

Note that the wolf form has a fixed set of mutations and never receives different ones; while the human is capable of receiving any mutation by normal effect, but not negative ones through the malmutate enemy spell. The primary concept behind the bifurcated design is that half the time your character is a frail ranged and spellcaster user and the other half (s)he is a robust and capable melee user. The change in apts. doesn't effect XP gain, it only changes the current level in the stat; such that if a stat changed from 0 to +5 the current level is double, until it switches back.
Second old version. And to clarify; yes, it's intended that when the aptitudes switch; it acts as if it was trained in the current aptitude and not necessarily the one it was trained in.

[dck]

Man that's a big mess.
Also needing to keep an eye on turncount to avoid instant death doesn't sound very good.

[Klown]

It's a bit complicated, a lot of stuff going on for a simple werewolf. I like it though for the most part.

[Arrhythmia]

I think a lot of your choices of numbers, i.e. paralysis time and aptitudes, are wildly impossible and should be changed. Like, in their humanoid form they have as much Spellcasting as Deep Elves, and even more fire than Lava Orcs or Djinn. That's crazy!

That said, I do like the idea of alternating between wild magic and methodical magic, and think that there's a kernel of a good idea in there.

[reaver]

There are a lot of problems with this proposal, but the really big one is that it seems both possible and desirable to avoid the werewolf mechanics. In this case, I'd probably be a Necromancer of Nemblex/Kiku, avoiding most of the apt. changes. I'd also wait out for the mode I wanted before facing anything big like branch ends. 1000 turns is just pressing "5" 10 times.

[savageorange]

Just a quick note, fixed turncount intervals can create grindiness; consider depending on something different like event counts (for example, counting the times when your HP drops below 40%; counting the number of times that an attack damages you for 30% or more of your HP; counting the level and number of magical attacks made on you;counting the number of times that >=4 attacks are successfully made against you in a turn) plus a variable timeout once that criteria is satisfied (for example 2d75 turns).

[TwilightPhoenix]

Random mutations steps on Demonspawn's toes. Also, Berserkitis is pretty much the worst mutation in the game. And your version is pretty much identical to it (AFAIK, current Berserkitis can only trigger in melee combat).

I'm also not sure why the humanoid form is essentially a Deep Dwarf Spriggan Naga of Ashenzari. Honestly, the drawbacks in humanoid form are so horrible that I'd just abuse the slow metabolism to go hide in a corner for a thousand turns and wait for wereform to kick in and then pray I don't develop Berserkitis to cripple that form too.

[reaver]

After some thought, I believe that the whole "involuntary switch between two forms" things fails as a concept, and this is why:

If the player prefers their current form to their future form, then the switch mechanic must be impossible to hasten.

If the player prefers their future form to their current form, then the switch mechanic must be impossible to delay.

Since there is no way to predict if a player will find their future form better or worse, both of these goals need to be handled by the same trigger.

These two goals fundamentally incompatible. While some triggers can't be hastened (XP, Piety gain) and one can't be delayed (Time*) there aren't any that can do both.

Sorry if that train of logic's a bit abstract and hard to follow, but basically I don't think there is a way to make this idea not scummy. It's just impossible to make something which forces the player to spend time in both forms.

*You can "hasten" time by pressing '5'. You get the advantages of the form change without having to fight enemies for it.

[bcadren]

I'm not fixing the Apts. just yet; the general concept was that the two forms were complete opposites, which I think comes across...but yea, I did push it a bit too far...anyways to fix the core of it (keep it from being possible to delay or hasten) there are perhaps two ways:

1. Keep it as a simple time delay, but make both forms have fast metabolism (making waiting costly to impossible).

2. When entering a new floor RNG a day/night effect; character is trapped in the form associated with the effect. The pain on transformation is enough to prevent abuse of stairdancing to keep form and simply skipping floors would leave you too experience poor.

[Arrhythmia]

After some thought, I believe that the whole "involuntary switch between two forms" things fails as a concept, and this is why:

If the player prefers their current form to their future form, then the switch mechanic must be impossible to hasten.

If the player prefers their future form to their current form, then the switch mechanic must be impossible to delay.

Since there is no way to predict if a player will find their future form better or worse, both of these goals need to be handled by the same trigger.

These two goals fundamentally incompatible. While some triggers can't be hastened (XP, Piety gain) and one can't be delayed (Time*) there aren't any that can do both.

Sorry if that train of logic's a bit abstract and hard to follow, but basically I don't think there is a way to make this idea not scummy. It's just impossible to make something which forces the player to spend time in both forms.

*You can "hasten" time by pressing '5'. You get the advantages of the form change without having to fight enemies for it.

I do agree with many of your points, but I feel if the chance to switch was small, random, and based on time, it could work. For example, if the chance of switching was 1/50 every 20 turns, there would only be a 1/3 chance of having switched after 1000 turns. Which, assuming normal metabolism (which I think the race should have), the nutrition cost would almost be an entire ration.

That being said, I think the idea would be a lot better if the two forms were less disparate. The difference between a minotaur who can't use weapons and one who can cast like the dickens but doesn't have any wrist bones is just too extreme. Your character would have to not just "be good at" these two abilities, but need to excel at them both, because if you find yourself only good at magic and are in the melee form, you'd practically need to wait until you switched.

[1010011010]

It seems too hard to put a transformation trigger as part of a non-character controlled value. A werewolf could be linked to the food clock, health, MP or even just have an ability which induces to transformation into a form with a downside large enough that the player won't want to be in wolf form all the time.

For example a ability wolf form could be just an actual wolf (as the original werewolves were IIRC) making you drop your equipped armour and weapons, but give it fast movement, strong attack and evasion, and a magic nerf. This makes it a good (but expensive) escape tool but also a good early transformation spell.

[DracheReborn]

Not sure why werewolves have to a separate race, why not a curse-like affliction that can affect (some) of the current races? Kind of like bad forms except you can't get rid of it and it triggers at unpredictable intervals.

[Azrael]

Werewolves should be a separate species for the same reason vampires are. They're both technically spreadable afflictions, but putting in a new disease mechanic is much more complicated than just making them playable from the start.

It seems too hard to put a transformation trigger as part of a non-character controlled value. A werewolf could be linked to the food clock, health, MP or even just have an ability which induces to transformation into a form with a downside large enough that the player won't want to be in wolf form all the time.

For example a ability wolf form could be just an actual wolf (as the original werewolves were IIRC) making you drop your equipped armour and weapons, but give it fast movement, strong attack and evasion, and a magic nerf. This makes it a good (but expensive) escape tool but also a good early transformation spell.

This seems about right to me. Making werewolves change without player control is just going to lead to scumming. Making the change an activatable ability uses mechanics already in existence (like bat form for vampires) and eliminates this problem, while preserving flavor.

[ontoclasm]

As I mentioned previously, the problem is that, if you can control which form you're in, you're just going to pick one and ignore the other; if you can't, it's going to be horrifically irritating. What spells are you going to learn? Whichever ones you say, they'll be uncastable half the time. Using any weapon will be a waste since you'll lose it as a wolf, but if you go UC you'll be terrible at it when you're human. Basically, no matter how you build your character, you're going to hate one of your forms, and avoid it as much as possible.

Also you gave them more positive muts than races built entirely around having positive muts and they have +5s in like twelve skills when having even one thing at +3 is extremely powerful. I don't exactly have all the apts memorized for every race, but to the best of my recollection, one of the two forms you've detailed has the best apt in the game at: Fighting, Dodge, UC, Necromancy, Ice, Air, Staves, Armour, Shields, Spellcasting, Transmutations, Fire, and Earth.

Also they have +2 HP apt which is pretty much enough to win you the game in and of itself, so there's that.

[bcadren]

As I mentioned previously, the problem is that, if you can control which form you're in, you're just going to pick one and ignore the other; if you can't, it's going to be horrifically irritating. What spells are you going to learn? Whichever ones you say, they'll be uncastable half the time. Using any weapon will be a waste since you'll lose it as a wolf, but if you go UC you'll be terrible at it when you're human. Basically, no matter how you build your character, you're going to hate one of your forms, and avoid it as much as possible.

Also you gave them more positive muts than races built entirely around having positive muts and they have +5s in like twelve skills when having even one thing at +3 is extremely powerful. I don't exactly have all the apts memorized for every race, but to the best of my recollection, one of the two forms you've detailed has the best apt in the game at: Fighting, Dodge, UC, Necromancy, Ice, Air, Staves, Armour, Shields, Spellcasting, Transmutations, Fire, and Earth.

Also they have +2 HP apt which is pretty much enough to win you the game in and of itself, so there's that.

Umm...there's one '+5' and 4 '-5's by my count. I had considered giving them more +5's though honestly...needing half of normal XP to be at max level for a skill counterbalances the same skill being completely terrible half the time and allows for XP to be split more than normal. Remember with a +5 it takes half the XP as at 0. Both forms need a focus in order to be able to play the 'half and half style'. That said; yes, it's rough...I suppose spellcasting's Apt. needs to stay flat because changing the number of spell levels doesn't work well.

Also, if werewolves are kept on fast metabolism constantly; the half-and-half playstyle could be forced (sure you can wait for the change; but it makes starvation death a real possibility).

The 50-50 (exact opposites) idea of them comes from Goblins 3; in which Blount and Were-Blount were shown to have opposite personality. Goblin Blount was a shy, mild-mannered, vegetarian reportert. Were-Blount was a rude, violent, womanizer and lover of rare meat. What I'm trying to go for is REALLY extreme, I halfway want to mirror the apts. where possible... -3 for humanoid to +3 for werewolf and opposite mutations (mix of positive and negative for each; probably more total positive than even Demonspawn, but a roughly equal number of negative is ideal).

[ontoclasm]

My point is, it doesn't matter how many -5s you give them; I'm just going to learn Fire Storm twice as fast as any other race can ever hope to (for reference, the next best at this would be Tengu, with +3 Conj and +1 Fire and no innate wizardry, who pay for this benefit with a crippling -2 HP apt) and then do whatever is necessary (waiting, using an ability, killing wimpy trash monsters, diving, whatever) to never be a wolf when it matters. If you try and force me to be one, I will just run away until I'm not.

I get that you have a theme you're going for, but most players don't play to be cool dramatic werewolves; they play to win, and if there's a bland-yet-extremely-effective way to do that then that's what they'll do.

[Amnesiac]

-5 in one skill doesn't counterbalance a +5 skill, it just makes you train the +5 skill and don't train the -5 one.

they play to win

I don't play to win, a play to have fun, am I a minority?

[bcadren]

-5 in one skill doesn't counterbalance a +5 skill, it just makes you train the +5 skill and don't train the -5 one.

It does counterbalance it...when it's the same skill and it switches back and forth half the time; which is kind of the idea. I think I need to better read on the apts. a bit to get the idea down though.

[Amnesiac]

Well... If it's the same skill, I'll just train in when it's +5. It's not like having -5 compensates it, it just makes you train the skill more than twice as fast, then switch to training other skills, when it's -5. What's the point in wasting more than a half of exp?

[Arrhythmia]

I think the idea was that when you switch, your skills are adjusted as if you had trained them at the new apt, rather than the one you did train them at. Of course, this presents its own problem.

[Amnesiac]

So after adjusting it will be as if you gained it at -5apt. That sounds interesting, but that will mean, that on your first switch you will have no training in needed skills, sounds tough. Looking at hexes apts, the only raliable option you get is enchanter.

[DracheReborn]

Werewolves should be a separate species for the same reason vampires are. They're both technically spreadable afflictions, but putting in a new disease mechanic is much more complicated than just making them playable from the start.

My thinking is that unlike vampires, the humanoid form of werewolf would be hard to distinguish from, say, humans.

OP has chosen to use wild aptitude swings between werewolf and humanoid forms, to make the humanoid form more distinctive. I don't think it works very well. Werewolf form is pretty distinctive, with claws, fangs, fur, unfitting armour, and strong mutations. But the humanoid part is inevitably going to be bland. It seems odd to have to define a new distinctive humanoid race basically just to form one half of the werewolf race.

[galehar]

I think the idea was that when you switch, your skills are adjusted as if you had trained them at the new apt, rather than the one you did train them at. Of course, this presents its own problem.

It's actually pretty straightforward to implement it this way.

I think the only way to force the player to play in both forms would be to trigger the change on XP gained. Using the food clock would be either inefficient or aggravating. Anyway, even with XP triggered form change, it would probably still be optimal to have one form stronger than the other and switch between hard and easy levels whenever you change form. Doesn't seem very fun.

[TeshiAlair]

What about having it be a ability to go from human-> werewolf but a XP clock from werewolf-> human.

Also, some wolf suggestions- Make them hunger rapidly, carnivorous, unable to wear armor, fast, and self-mesmerizing once engaged in combat (bloodlust). This way, transforming to wolf form to handle a tough inescapable melee fight is a tactical decision that you then have to deal with afterwards.

[KennySheep]

How about something like this: Base the transformation on tension, like the lava orc's heating up mechanics. Except when the lava orc would catch on fire, the werewolf would transform. In both forms the werewolf has regeneration 2. In wolf form all equipment except rings/amulets meld and the werewolf gets claws 3, shaggy fur 2 and fast 2. In the early game the player would want to transform into the wolf for most fights, and later on once they have good equipment the change would be something to be avoided.

Give them roughly the same aptitudes as humans, but with +1 in all the weapon skills, -1 in unarmed and most magic schools and -2 in spellcasting. That way a werewolf monk or speedy mage isn't a no-brainer choice, and players who manage tension correctly get rewarded with a better than average warrior.

I always liked the Slash'em lycanthrope. Most of the actual mechanics wouldn't translate to crawl in any way shape or form, but the general idea of an early game monster that eventually needs fixing/careful management in the late game could fit well (although Shash'em had rings of polymorph control to eventually make all of this a non-issue).

[prozacelf]

The problem with this suggestion is that LO temperature as currently implemented is basically a primer on how to game the tension system. I believe the intent is to eventually move LO away from relying so heavily on tension. Whatever mechanic LO wind up with may also turn out to be appropriate for werewolves, but then they probably have to be significantly different from LO in order to justify having two races use that mechanic.

[bcadren]

Not sure which mechanic for changing is best; but I did redraft the mutations and aptitudes. To make it easier to set up and read, it's a spreadsheet this time. I still think simple time could work; if fast metabolism balanced against it to keep the player from being able to wait very long. I'm not sure though...

[tasonir]

I think the idea was that when you switch, your skills are adjusted as if you had trained them at the new apt, rather than the one you did train them at. Of course, this presents its own problem.

It's actually pretty straightforward to implement it this way.

I think the only way to force the player to play in both forms would be to trigger the change on XP gained. Using the food clock would be either inefficient or aggravating. Anyway, even with XP triggered form change, it would probably still be optimal to have one form stronger than the other and switch between hard and easy levels whenever you change form. Doesn't seem very fun.

draconian changes to aptitudes already retroactively recalculate your level, and this would work the same. Using exp to switch forms is the only thing that won't let you just rest away the bad form, it's the only thing I can see making this work atm. "easy" levels wouldn't give you as much exp and you'd probably run out of monsters there before long. I don't think it would be too gamable. If an easy place gives high exp, well, the game doesn't think it was that easy...Players may save branch endings and such for their preferred form, but branch endings give a lot of exp, so you might switch. I would consider that to be balanced.

The one thing that needs to go is 1d12 paralysis on shift. First of all a 12 turn paralysis is insane, I think the highest one in game is 6-7 turns, and players complain about instantly dying without getting a chance to react when they get that. There should be either no paralysis at all, or at most, just take one turn for the shift.

[bcadren]

Bump for new version. Also, necromancy on one of my oldest thread...whoa man, whoa.

[Lyrick]

I have another take on werewolves. Rips off your idea somewhat but different skills. viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12083