mumra wrote:Siegurt wrote:Long blades current have the "special" ability of being second-best for stabbing next to daggers. Actually triple swords are nearly as good for stabbing as daggers, given max skills in both.
If long blades are to be 'vanilla' then this ability should probably be stripped from them.
Why? All weapons have a stabbing bonus; it's not a "special" ability. Short blades have the "special" ability of having a much
higher stabbing multiplier. I don't see why any other weapon type be changed.
Long blades have an additional stabbing bonus over and above other weapons (but below that of short blades), that's what I was suggesting be removed.
mumra wrote:Siegurt wrote:Disorient's simple description for the user "When hit hard with this weapon, a creature may stumble around disoriented for a moment" when in combat "<monster> stumbles around disoriented for a moment" Describing the mechanics and exact numbers in an uncomplicated way has never been a priority in the past afaik.
I was just listing some general points for consideration, not implying that they all applied to all of your suggestions. The point was more that having that many different effects is confusing, especially when many are arbitrarily applies to various sub-types in different classes, whereas having one clear and interesting effect per weapon class is a nice design (and yes the club-stun effect is pretty weird; I'm thinking of changing this a bit to tie in more with the M&F ability I discussed anyway).
Sure we don't want to get bogged down in exact numbers, although for players who want to obsess over the details it is very good if those details are fairly transparent (and this applies for devs too; it's much easier to tweak and balance a simple effect/algorithm than a complex one).
Sure and at the time I wrote this proposal I hadn't known that there was something in-progress for maces/flails, and yes, club stab is bizzare (game wise, thematically i understand the 'blackjack effect' it's attempting to create)
mumra wrote:Siegurt wrote:"Shove" is certainly a tactically-oriented ability as is "Lesser cleave"
"Shove" is probably the best in terms of this, yes. Weaker cleave is just a variation of an existing effect which certainly has tactical/positioning implications. I wouldn't be in favour of giving this to a non-axe weapon; "axes cleave" is a very simple thing to communicate. I'd probably give thought to a suggestion to have some types of axes have a smaller cleave arc but it's not really necessary.
Yep, note that I only gave that to long swords as part of the "jack of all trades" theme, which if is instead going to be "Vanilla" theme, removes it from consideration.
mumra wrote:Siegurt wrote:And I admit that for staves/quarterstaves Parry is a simple power increase, but I felt like the staves category needed one, without becoming actually more destructive (While it doesn't change your tactics, it does change your strategy around training and what weapons to use) Note that one-handed staves aren't in the game any longer with the exception of enhancer staves (Which perhaps should not get parry, they've already got something special anyway)
It's basically saying "here's a weapon that doesn't let you wear shields so we're going to give it some shielding to make up for it" which doesn't make sense: and it simply makes the decision less interesting. Anyway, "weapon effects should have tactical implications" isn't just an arbitary guideline, it's a requirement that's been discussed at length, so this won't fly; the strategical choices around training and weapons are actually fine as they are.
It makes *some* sense in that traditionally quarterstaves were sometimes used to block incoming attacks (Often because the people using them were too poor to afford armour, and sticks were a damn sight cheaper to replace than longswords, but nevertheless)
Currently the choices are "Train towards a big two handed weapon that does lots of damage" or "Train towards a big two handed weapon that does slightly less damage" I was trying to come up with a way in which that was a less simple choice for a melee user who had equal ability with either.
Certainly some more interesting tactical ability than the one I suggested here would be preferable, one that makes the choice between training towards a lajatang and a triple sword one that isn't simple, but fraught with benefits and drawbacks.
mumra wrote:Siegurt wrote:Disorient is also somewhat tactical in nature (Disorient something then stepping out of it's reach for an escape/reposition is a nice tactic)
If you need a better position or need to escape you should probably be doing it right now instead of risking further melee, since the effect isn't guaranteed anyway (or use another of the many non-melee options available for these tactics).
Possibly, but many of those options are unavailable or available in limited quantites,
Hypothetically I'm thinking of fighting a killer bee that might be a tough-but-doable fight one on one (since they move so quickly they often catch me in a less than optimum placement, which if they're one at a time isn't a problem), only to see another two pop up in your LOS, you can't run from them normally, but you could, with disorient, manage a fighting retreat into a corridor. I realize that's not a game changer, but neither is cleave.
Nevertheless this ability was suggested before I saw maces&flails were under construction, I'm perfectly Ok with seeing it discarded, and have no attachment to it.
mumra wrote:Siegurt wrote:Feint/lesser feint isn't so much tactical as it is a way to make up for the shortcomings of otherwise not very easily used weapons. So yes, it's a power bump to a category that needs one without actually making the weapons more powerful. (Which makes it more of a strategy/weapon choice/training thing rather than a tactical one)
What makes you say either of those categories need a power bump? Short blades have stabbing, M&F are possibly about to get a more interesting effect.
Stabbing is fine and wonderful, until you can't stab things anymore, at that point you have a ton of skill in something that can't do damage to heavily armoured critters, and most of the things you need to kill are heavily armoured. I perceive that to be a problem, if the general consensus is to disagree and think that's acceptable, then by all means, leave it as-is, no skin of my nose
(Maces & flails as I said I hadn't read anything about before I posted)
mumra wrote:Siegurt wrote:Bleeding can change the tactics of how you attack things (Hitting something for bleeding damage then fleeing while it bleeds to death) Blinding is however just a power bump (With the same rationale as Parry/Feint, i.e. the category kind of needs it)
Bleeding doesn't do what you think it does. And these aren't the sort of tactics we're talking about anyway; and note, I said "tactics
and positioning", whereas "running away from something that's dying" is just a tactic, and you can already get this on many weapons with poison brand.
I can see that point of view and as I earlier said, I consider my suggestions regarding whips to be the weakest of the bunch.
mumra wrote:Siegurt wrote:So of the new abilities I proposed (10) 5 qualify as not-tactical at all (Parry/Feint and lesser Parry/Feint,Blindness) but could change long term strategy, 5 qualify as tactical in nature. the only not-tactical ability that isn't paired with a tactical one is Parry.
I disagree but here we're down to definitions and assumptions based on what I said and what you interpret I meant by "tactics/positioning". You should read the discussions I linked to in depth to get a better idea of what we're talking about here. dpeg has expressed things much more succinctly than I in any case
One thing I wonder is: Does differently optimized tactics for different types of weapons require you go through the learning curve again with each new weapon type you try? And is that a good or bad thing? Will it confuse new players? (i.e. this worked last time? why doesn't the same thing work?)
(Mostly asking the question to play devils advocate, I personally like variety and personally think that having different playstyles be more useful with different types of weapons is cool and contributes to the long-term enjoyability of the game.)