unfinished skald god proposal


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

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Post Monday, 20th May 2013, 22:49

unfinished skald god proposal

changed 10.3.13

ok well its a melee-buffcaster hybrid god. turns mana into a beneficial shield augmented with high piety levels. additionally, the player is heavily rewarded for fighting at zero mana. both mana states provide versatility at a great expense to certain resources.playing with zero mana is meant to be a highly offensive, dangerous (for the player and the monsters) style with limited escape options.

A lot of people talk about changing buffs or even summons so that they remove from maxmp instead of having a simple mana cost. this god takes that concept to the extreme - giving players "permabuffs" but locking them in completely, preventing additions. At the same time, the player needs to be able to cast spells in certain circumstances where permanent buffs would not outweigh the lack of mana, so there are benefits to having mana. The gimmick is that the mana/mana free benefits cannot be used at the same time, so the god ends up supporting two distinct playstyles.

players gain piety by killing any type of creature while at zero mana.


Dumb God Name welcomes you!
*same message demonspawn get when they gain Guardian Spirit*


[------]
You gain a permanent old-style Guardian Spirit, removing mana from the character before health when damage is received.When at zero mana, all `beneficial` buffs (including things like teleportation, delaying the teleport) are maintained and not lost until dispelled by a combat effect (purple dragon breath, whatever else) or if the player gains mana in any way.

a - depress: instant. when activated, deals damage based on level of the player`s mana in a radius dependent on the piety level, draining all mana. Damage is massive, but evenly spread upon monsters caught in the blast, so the damage cannot exceed the function of the mana. depress can remain activated as long as the player wants to stay at zero mana. causes exhaustion; cannot be triggered while exhausted. when deactivated, mana regeneration returns to normal and all buffs regain their remaining turns before expiring. the player cannot gain mana in any way; potions of magic are unusable and channeling equipment can be held but have no effect.

Buffs that are not maintained at zero mana:
Disjunction
Death`s Door
Confusing Touch
Passwall
Regeneration
Tornado
Fball
Any `a`bility

[*-----]
at any mana level above zero and while not exhausted, the player gains a one turn buff after killing an enemy which allows them to target and blink one square away from any hostile - the closest square to your original position - including unaware or sleeping enemies. This is not an extendable buff through depress, but it doesn`t matter anyway; if the player uses that turn to depress the buff is lost anyway since it only lasts one turn. the monster is `marked` in a way, and if the player does not kill that monster, the player gains exhaustion. this is only a mediocre escape spell since you cannot use it to `jump` beyond monsters and run away and suffer a penalty for not killing your target meaning you cannot chain blink away from danger, but it is a tremendous offensive tool especially for stealth builds to eliminate turns moving from monster to monster, therefore reducing stealth check in total. this is an idea i modified from dpeg who posted it later in the thread[/color]

[**----]
a - collect power: instant. all `beneficial` buffs are purged (teleportations trigger instead of being cancelled) as the expelled magical power rushes back into the player. one third of the player`s maxMP is restored, and the player loses one third of their current HP. can only be used while under the effect of depress.

[***---]
killchain blinking: upon killing an enemy, the player gains a buff kcblink and can blink directly to any enemy in los, landing on an adjacent tile closest to the original position. the buff expires after one turn.

[****--]
a - transfocus teleportation: instant. upon activation, drains all mana and places a mark where the player is standing. The player can `a - Return` up to, based on piety, 10****-- 12*****- or 15****** turns later, teleporting the player there regardless when the maximum piety based turns end. You focus your energy into a specific transdimentional location, knowing you will return there shortly.

[*****-]
at any mana level above zero, the player is given one level of Magic Resist. The elemental protection from the mana shield is increased to a 50% chance at this piety level.

[******]
The elemental protection from the mana shield is increased to a 75% chance at this piety level.





The idea came from years of thinking of bad god proposals that were just repeats of other ideas. Zero mana conduct isn't something I've seen suggested before, perhaps because it can be so crippling. Because of that, fighting with zero mana is not mandatory, but heavily encouraged under the right circumstances. The core idea is pretty solid but I don't feel so great about the piety level benefits, expecially the last two. Additionally, +attack speed might not fit thematically, and it also clashes with okawaru. help me think of great stuff to add
Last edited by twelwe on Monday, 6th January 2014, 05:42, edited 8 times in total.
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Post Tuesday, 21st May 2013, 01:24

Re: unfinished melee hybrid god proposal

I feel like piety gain would have to be just for killing regardless of mana - probably while exploring you wouldn't want to have mana at zero, and having to deplete mana for all kills would be pretty annoying.

The theme and active abilities in general sound interesting. Depress being toggleable makes sense but maybe Collect Power should just be a single activation for some set duration of mana regen/HP drain, managing multiple toggles sounds a bit fiddly. Not a huge fan of passive attack speed, although I get that it needs something strong to encourage being at zero mana. I guess it wouldn't work at all with the proposed/WIP Djinn species but that can be handwaved away (Djinn "essence" isn't the right type of magic for the god's mana shield or something).
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Post Tuesday, 21st May 2013, 02:23

Re: unfinished melee hybrid god proposal

the only reason collect power was envisioned as a toggled ability was to stop the damage component
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Post Tuesday, 21st May 2013, 04:39

Re: unfinished melee hybrid god proposal

Since the idea of Collect Power is (or rather, seems to be) that you give up the permabuffs in order to start casting again, how about it be an instant ability which instantly removes all your buffs and "converts" them into mana; i.e. you get a small amount of mana no matter what, then a bit more for each buff you burned.

In other words, it's how you get yourself out of the 0-mana state when it's an emergency and you need to cast, say, DDoor right now, but comes at a cost (i.e. the buffs, plus a bunch of piety). In a non-emergency you just turn Depress off and let your mana come back normally.

I suggest this over your version since I don't think even triple MP regen is likely to make a difference in a crisis, when you have maybe 2-3 turns to spare, and the damage is either going to be unacceptably dangerous (when you're near death) or completely irrelevant (when you're not).
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Post Tuesday, 21st May 2013, 07:15

Re: unfinished melee hybrid god proposal

mana-per-buff removed would encourage a lot more buffing before every battle just to preempt those emergencies with an instant mana regen. This might not necessarily be a bad thing, but it would encourage stacking a ton of 1/2mp buffs. maybe a flat instant mana return based on piety, or a mana return based on the level of the spells, like mana regained = every current buff spell level minus 3
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Post Tuesday, 21st May 2013, 08:38

Re: unfinished melee hybrid god proposal

I'd think just about any mana return that equaled less than the MP put into the buffs would discourage stacking a ton of low level ones for no other purpose than as an MP battery. Having it, say, asymptote toward but always < MP spent on buffs as a function of Invocation skill might work, assuming there's no obvious hook to base the god's abilities on a different skill. Obviously balance on that would have to be worked out at some point, but I think it's a neat idea.

Also, I like the idea of the transfocus teleport, but when I think more about it, it seems like 10 turns would either be too long or too short the majority of the time. Maybe either let the player choose a duration or make it random d15 + 5 or something.

It might also make sense to give a SH (maybe EV?) boost when with mana in place of the TFT. Thematically, it would sort of fit with the resists already given out, and since there's already a permanent old-style guardian spirit in place, keeping your mana around will be more challenging than it would otherwise.

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Post Tuesday, 21st May 2013, 12:31

Re: unfinished melee hybrid god proposal

It looks to me like you could cast DDoor, toggle Depress, and become invincible for the rest of the game w/ no downside.
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Post Tuesday, 21st May 2013, 12:41

Re: unfinished melee hybrid god proposal

Lasty wrote:It looks to me like you could cast DDoor, toggle Depress, and become invincible for the rest of the game w/ no downside.

twelwe wrote:Buffs that are not maintained at zero mana:
Death's Door
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

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Post Tuesday, 21st May 2013, 12:54

Re: unfinished melee hybrid god proposal

I think Collect Power should not be instant otherwise it will be overpowered.
For the same reason transfocus teleportation should have random duration like Death's Door has.

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Post Tuesday, 21st May 2013, 13:22

Re: unfinished melee hybrid god proposal

Oops, missed that. Thanks, galehar.
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Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2013, 04:32

Re: unfinished melee hybrid god proposal

Lasty wrote:It looks to me like you could cast DDoor, toggle Depress, and become invincible for the rest of the game w/ no downside.


The list galehar quoted is short, but I did pretty much go through every casted buff and consider whether it would be too powerful. My general conclusion was that things like permanent haste would have to be allowed to give this god some kind of positive side with such crippling conduct, and that other buffs like ctele would have clear consequences the player would be forced to consider before depressing because it isn't easy to replace the current buffset. I think the new skald buffs are awesome additions to the game, I was glad to see them because this can be boiled into a skald god more than anything.
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Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2013, 09:30

Re: unfinished melee hybrid god proposal

I'm a bit worried about the interaction with brilliance and low casting success rates in general. But it's probably okay. Earlygame permabuffs without investment in spell skills and cheap necromutation for tomb seem like they might be good, but not really overpowered. Haste is very good and permanently getting glow is terrible, which should act as a strong incentive to be able to actually refresh your buffs and maybe not be at 0 MP all the time.
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Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2013, 16:33

Re: unfinished melee hybrid god proposal

Galefury wrote:I'm a bit worried about the interaction with brilliance and low casting success rates in general. But it's probably okay. Earlygame permabuffs without investment in spell skills and cheap necromutation for tomb seem like they might be good, but not really overpowered. Haste is very good and permanently getting glow is terrible, which should act as a strong incentive to be able to actually refresh your buffs and maybe not be at 0 MP all the time.


brilliance would not be maintained, because it is not a casted buff. No potion effects would be extended, even if they have spell forms (potion of speed, etc)
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Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2013, 16:42

Re: unfinished melee hybrid god proposal

I think galefury meant quaffing brilliance for the wizardry boost, casting a buff you couldn't normally cast, and then running around with 0 mana so it doesn't expire.

But I agree that you'd probably head out of 0 MP often enough that it wouldn't be much of a problem.
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Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2013, 16:55

Re: unfinished melee hybrid god proposal

Okay I can understand that. Maintaining brilliance wouldn't even serve any purpose that I think about it. Buffs cast with the aid of brilliance should still be maintained. You could argue that it would be as much of a benefit mid-game as it would early-game, and it doesn't seem game breaking since they player wouldn't be extending any buffs they wouldn't have the ability to later on. I thought for a bit that a wizardry boost would fit thematically while having mana, but attack speed won out as the concern for melee abilities ultimately trumps spellcasting success for the god.
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Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2013, 17:03

Re: unfinished melee hybrid god proposal

twelwe wrote:Maintaining brilliance wouldn't even serve any purpose that I think about it.


Yeah, neither a wizardry boost nor a spell power boost is particularly useful at 0MP :)
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Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2013, 17:05

Re: unfinished skald god proposal

I think the god should prohibit staff of power, ring of power and arguably staff of wizardry, ring of wizardry and potion of brilliance.
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Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2013, 17:31

Re: unfinished skald god proposal

Sandman25 wrote:I think the god should prohibit staff of power, ring of power and arguably staff of wizardry, ring of wizardry and potion of brilliance.


Why? They are meant to be beneficial items for the player. You seem to be considering the usage in conjunction with the god as an exploit, but you have to keep in mind that this is a tradeoff for being effectively silenced when it comes to spellcasting at certain times. I thought of two more drawbacks that I didn't include in the first draft - player spells could cost double mana OR casted buffs would expire twice as fast outside of zero mana, so that stacking buffs (buffing to 1mp, waiting for mana regen, and buffing again) would have some sort of limitation.

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Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2013, 17:41

Re: unfinished skald god proposal

twelwe wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:I think the god should prohibit staff of power, ring of power and arguably staff of wizardry, ring of wizardry and potion of brilliance.


Why? They are meant to be beneficial items for the player. You seem to be considering the usage in conjunction with the god as an exploit, but you have to keep in mind that this is a tradeoff for being effectively silenced when it comes to spellcasting at certain times. I thought of two more drawbacks that I didn't include in the first draft - player spells could cost double mana OR casted buffs would expire twice as fast outside of zero mana, so that stacking buffs (buffing to 1mp, waiting for mana regen, and buffing again) would have some sort of limitation.

In June I'll have some free time to take a crack at LUA. I haven't programmed anything since 10th grade, and despite a cisco certification I couldn't configure a router to save my life today.


My understanding was that if the god likes having zero mana then it hates mana boosters but it's up to you really because you clearly stated that this paradigm applies to fighting/killing only.

PS. I forgot to include potion of magic in the list above.
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Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2013, 17:47

Re: unfinished skald god proposal

This god doesn't seem to particularly dislike you having MP, (in fact, you get benefits from having nonzero MP) but gives you benefits and drawbacks to it.

The part of this that feels strangest to me is the binary "you have 0 MP or you don't" part -- though I can't tell whether that's important or just me.
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Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2013, 18:06

Re: unfinished skald god proposal

njvack wrote:This god doesn't seem to particularly dislike you having MP, (in fact, you get benefits from having nonzero MP) but gives you benefits and drawbacks to it.

The part of this that feels strangest to me is the binary "you have 0 MP or you don't" part -- though I can't tell whether that's important or just me.

No, you're right, it is a bit of an oddity. The elemental protection - the 3 star ability - could be adjusted so that:

***---
at any mana level above zero, the player gains an elemental protection exactly like the dragonskin cloak. at this piety level, The protection, based on mana, is a 25/50/75% chance to gain one level of resistance equal to the elemental damage type. Your magical shield occasionally/often/ protects you from the elements.

So, you couldn't collect power and immediately gain the highest elemental protection. It would give the potion of magic another use similar to a potion of resistance.
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Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2013, 18:51

Re: unfinished skald god proposal

twelwe wrote:In June I'll have some free time to take a crack at LUA. I haven't programmed anything since 10th grade, and despite a cisco certification I couldn't configure a router to save my life today.


Lua wouldn't be much use for coding a god, if that's what you're suggesting. All the deity code is in C++ (largely religion.cc, but there's stuff scattered all over the source).
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Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2013, 22:22

Re: unfinished skald god proposal

I like the mechanics of this god and the choices it'd create (I really like the "super MP regen in exchange for damage" trick). The place where I'm coming up short is a theme and story -- it's kind of a god that both likes you to have MP and likes you to not have MP. Any thoughts on that front?
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Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2013, 23:52

Re: unfinished skald god proposal

Two headed deity! Or just two-faced, like Janus. Likes and hates things.
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Post Thursday, 23rd May 2013, 02:50

Re: unfinished skald god proposal

njvack wrote:I like the mechanics of this god and the choices it'd create (I really like the "super MP regen in exchange for damage" trick). The place where I'm coming up short is a theme and story -- it's kind of a god that both likes you to have MP and likes you to not have MP. Any thoughts on that front?


I think everyone is getting hung up on the concept that the god "likes" one style or another. It isn't the case - the god is completely altering the state of your mana, turning it into an external protective barrier with special properties that you can either choose to use or not. Unleashing the power of the shield also depletes the player's mana, but the changed nature of the mana maintains existing buffs until the player wants the mana back. I look at this as a relationship between two states of mana, neither to be looked upon as favorable by the god. And MarvinPA is right - manaless kills exclusively gaining piety is a favorable concept and shouldn't be exclusive in that way.
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Post Saturday, 1st June 2013, 08:15

Re: unfinished skald god proposal

Some comments:

You've noted the new skald buffs in the context of this god, however of the 4 new spells: 1 is a summon, and 2 of the remaining buffs have no effect when at zero mp, negating the benefits of extending them. This leaves Song of Slaying, which will either be overpowered once you remove the duration limit on building up power (weak opponents are capped, but if you can keep killing bright-red threats...) or too risky with the constant shouting. Given that it explicitly prevents itself from being extended by recasting, maybe it shouldn't be extended. Spirit shield should actually be marked useless while worshipping, because this god grants that effect permanently. Given that they're more extensions of the casters than regular summons, maybe Spectral Weapon (and for consistency Battlesphere) could be specially extended.

Except for the semi-recent removal of in-game references to "mana" ([url="http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/6bdf477"]commit[/url]), I've been thinking of your proposal as the "mana god". I see he/she/it as catering to those looking to utilize their magical reserves in new ways, and I think the new skalds already solved the problem of giving their mp meaning. I'd probably use a background with less continual use for its mp if I was aiming for this god.

You mention delaying teleport at zero mp. However you also mention not extending buffs caused by potions. Scrolls, wands, and potions are all manaless effects at the expense of a consumable. If ignoring potion buffs, wouldn't it be consistent not to affect buffs from any of these? One could say that flavorwise only potions and wands aren't "cast". However, if the goal is to only extend buffs that cost the player mp to cast, all these as well as card effects and rod spells should also be skipped.

If this is the goal, there's a sizable implementation hurdle in that durations are maintained for an effect regardless of source. Currently, player attributes are used to maintain side-properties, such as whether or not an effect is from a cancellable source, but this only works if the durations are comparable between sources. Once we start extending the effect only for certain sources, we may need to track duration separately based on source. And I count 13 buff spell effects with non-spell sources.

Below is the results of my running through the effects tracked by decrementing durations in the code for buff spells. There's 8 spells (11 if you count the newskald stuff) which could be extended with minimal code changes. Of these, I note 3 (marked with '*') which have explicit diminishing effects over the course of the duration. The effect of extending these might bear some consideration, though if scrolls are not extendable, there shouldn't be a way to have both Depress and Silence active at the same time.

I've also added Tornado to the list of durations which shouldn't be extended. I expect it was omitted for not being a "buff spell", but it has components in the duration code, so I've noted it for implementation purposes.
Spoiler: show
  Code:
Spell effect with non-spell sources
===================================
DUR_INVIS               // Potion, Wand, Flight Card, Shadow Card, Potion Card
DUR_HASTE               // Potion, Wand, Velocity Card, Potion Card
DUR_FLIGHT              // Potion, Evoke, Flight Card
DUR_REGENERATION        // Elixir Card, (Also Trog, but can't follow both)
DUR_SWIFTNESS           // Velocity card, Flight Card
DUR_CONTROL_TELEPORT    // Evoke, Portal Card
DUR_TRANSFORMATION      // decompose which transformation (so many sources)
DUR_DEFLECT_MISSILES    // Rod
DUR_PHASE_SHIFT         // Helm Card
DUR_WEAPON_BRAND        // Blade Card
DUR_SILENCE *           // Scroll
DUR_CONDENSATION_SHIELD // Rod
DUR_STONESKIN           // Helm Card

Buff Spell Effects (extendable)
===============================
DUR_SURE_BLADE *
DUR_FIRE_SHIELD
DUR_ICY_ARMOUR
DUR_REPEL_MISSILES
DUR_DEATH_CHANNEL
DUR_LIQUEFYING *
DUR_DARKNESS
DUR_SHROUD_OF_GOLUBRIA

(* effect depends on remaining duration)

// Newskald buffs
DUR_INFUSION
DUR_SONG_OF_SLAYING
DUR_SPIRIT_SHIELD


Non-Extendable Buff Spell Effects
=================================
DUR_CONFUSING_TOUCH
DUR_DEATHS_DOOR
DUR_DISJUNCTION
DUR_TORNADO
DELAY_PASSWALL


Questionable Effects
====================
DUR_TELEPORT


Another consideration might be whether or not the buff extension should be granted immediately upon following the god. It's a much more powerful bonus than most gods give right off the back. This might be the wrong way of going about it, but perhaps higher piety stars allow extending higher level spells? (for example extend if spell level is at most piety *s + 1 or 2, maybe all spells at 6* or 5*)

I might try coding this if there's enough interest. I've been wanting to get into helping with development once I have more free time. I plan on mainly working on randart gods to start, but implementing a static god might be a good introduction to how to modify the ability and religion code.

...and I came up with a possible flavor/skin to apply over the mechanics of the god before I got around to posting:
Spoiler: show
I'm pretending that Aether is somehow related to mortal magic. Since this god is about bending your mp for nonstandard effects, I'm declaring that this god is the master of manipulating aether, hence the abilities. The omnipresent field of aether also lends flavor to transfocus teleportation. I've also renamed Depress to Quench/Unquench, since I'm not calling the code flag you.depressed(). And I came up with a random name of syllables I liked and with a unique starting letter, just so I could call the god something.

Example descriptions:
  Code:
Gaelthoon lastname

Gaelthoon the Aether Lord


%%%%
Gaelthoon

Gaelthoon is the deity master of aetheric energies whose name is spoken in
whispers by those looking to transcend their physical frames. Followers must
[do something appropriate]
In return they are offered abilities to manipulate their magical energy for
defense and offense in ways beyond using spells.

%%%%
Gaelthoon powers

Followers of Gaelthoon receive passive defense from their extant magic,
initially protecting them from harm, and later partially resisting the elements
and magic as well. When deprived of magical energy and otherwise vulnerable,
Gaelthoon sustains beneficial spells cast on their person and allows them
to attack more swiftly. Followers are able to temporarily quench their magic to
gain these benefits, damaging foes with any remaining energy.  Later, they can
consume their beneficial effects for energy in a pinch.  Devout followers gain
the ability to briefly burn a memory into the aether, which will call them back
to that location a short while later.

%%%%
Quench Magic

Quench your magic and expel any remaining magical energy.
Your magic will not accumulate until you unquench your magic.

%%%%
Unquench Magic

Allow your magical energies to resume accumulating.

%%%%
Collect Power

Dismiss all beneficial spells affecting you, regaining

%%%%
Transfocus Teleportation

Record your current position into the aether.  You will be unerringly, but
involuntarily, teleported back to this spot after a delay.


// Death message
mpr("Your magical energies are absorbed into the aether.", MSGCH_GOD);

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Post Saturday, 1st June 2013, 12:40

Re: unfinished skald god proposal

I am a bit late to the party... Anyway, there is certainly potential for this proposal. Lots of good comments have been made. I'd like to ask you (twelve) to take it to the dev wiki before the idea fades away. (Trust, it won't be in the focus on the wiki, but it will be noticed as soon as future gods are discussed.)

Some comments of my own:

The dichotomy between "has mana" and "manaless" states is interesting (hopefully -- only playtesting can prove this, but I think it can work). However, in its binary state it might be more awkward to play than necessary. For example, this goes for the resistances. (I assume that a buff like Repel Missiles that's maintained because you hit 0 MP does not suddenly disappear when you regain a single MP; rather, than in this case the spell's innate duration keeps counting down again.)
Another issue is that the subtle attack speed boosts are very hard to feel for the player. I think it's generally preferable if you can see the presence (or in this case also absence) of features on the main playing screen. One attempt to go for this:

Instead of handing out attack speed boosts, improve AC, in the following fashion: effect is relative (a factor applied to AC), increases with piety stars, and is strongly inversely proportional to MP (so that you get the full effect at 0 MP, but there is some AC bonus at low MP -- this makes the transition smoother and hopefully less awkward). Why AC? First, this strengthens the hybrid aspect (that's why I didn't take EV which is something any caster would cherish). Second, the attack speed boost is for melee fighting, and this is exactly when you'll be grateful for an improved armour rating.

I am not convinced about giving out resistances altogether. (To be sure, I did suggest divine resistances myself, and early Cheibriadoses shipped with it; but it got removed later on, for good reasons.) Under the god, you're playing with constant mana-greedy Guardian Spirit. In other words, the divine elemental resistances are absolutely unreliable. (A lot more unreliable than Dragonskin itself, is my point.)

The crux is making sure that both positive MP and 0 MP are worthwhile, and that the inevitable transition from positive MP to 0 (during battle) is useful.
Can we assume that the player is interested in casting in the first place? In other words, would it make sense to use the god (in some of the incarnations on this page) and abstain from MP altogether? I think the benefits are way too small for that... Okawaru or Trog give you much more bang for the buck.
So in order to make use of the god, you have to be casting spells; given the "GS, that restricts to buffs and damage spells before battle.

What if we enhance the "GS effect that started all of this? For example: As piety ramps up, each point of MP used by GS could be worth more HP. This would also make sure that you're not necessarily inclined to cast all buffs you could muster prior to battles.

I really like Transfocused Teleportation. What if, at high piety, there would Transfocused Blink (e.g. after activation, for blink next to hostile monsters in LOS every other turn), creating some synergy with stabbing?

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twelwe

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Post Saturday, 1st June 2013, 13:55

Re: unfinished skald god proposal

There's a slightly problematic thing with using 0 MP as a yardstick, dpeg kind of touched on this. Being at absolutely zero MP is actually kind of rare, and even a bit awkward to do intentionally, beyond the very early game. Constantly monitoring your MP to see when you've gained a point or two and then spam some low-level spell that you don't even need to cast sounds a little annoying. There's also the thing that later on, most of the spells you want to cast cost a few MP so you'd end up e.g. spamming magic darts at a wall to burn your last couple of MP. So I think the proposal might need to not strictly care about 0 MP so much, or do something at least to make these kind of behaviours not advantageous.
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Sunday, 2nd June 2013, 01:20

Re: unfinished skald god proposal

mumra wrote:There's a slightly problematic thing with using 0 MP as a yardstick, dpeg kind of touched on this. Being at absolutely zero MP is actually kind of rare, and even a bit awkward to do intentionally, beyond the very early game. Constantly monitoring your MP to see when you've gained a point or two and then spam some low-level spell that you don't even need to cast sounds a little annoying. There's also the thing that later on, most of the spells you want to cast cost a few MP so you'd end up e.g. spamming magic darts at a wall to burn your last couple of MP. So I think the proposal might need to not strictly care about 0 MP so much, or do something at least to make these kind of behaviours not advantageous.


Note that Depress activates a toggled state which (1) drops your MP to zero and (2) blocks MP regeneration. So the key bonus of extended spells at 0 MP can be triggered with a god ability, though most characters might prefer to let their MP drop in combat first depending on the strength of the nova damage. Depending on which version (the original or ontoclasm's) of Collect Power is favored, the benefits are countered by palpable costs to recover MP in an emergency.

I think I'm also in favor of most other benefits scaling directly|inversely with MP to reduce the dichotomy. We may need to modify the original theme of "high MP => defense, low MP => offense" as hits would quickly deplete the granted defenses in addition to MP.
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Wednesday, 26th June 2013, 01:54

Re: unfinished skald god proposal

Thanks for the great posts dpeg and quola, I think you are probably one of the best new posters (or, should i say, best newly active posters)

I made a few changes in the original post and thought of some more drastic changes for manaless playstyle. The player should still theoretically have the natural, original source of his mana replenishment intact even during depress, so we could also assume that power is being expelled from the body during depress. Being at zero mana through depress could have a small aura of constant damage ala squarelos lava orcs.

Transfocus teleportation duration time could be tied to the amount of mana depleted upon activation. A player could collect power then transfocus, but it wouldn`t be as good while at full mana, so you might not be able to lure enough monsters out of los of your return point because your maxhp sucks. I don`t like this option much because you have to have level 27 skills to get the best benefit from the spell so its grindy, but so is collect power in its current form. They could have maximum levels to keep the power levels reasonable.

killchain blinking doesn`t have to be tied to having mana, but it does keep the manaless state limitation in check and gives another positive side to fighting with mana.

I don`t know how much I like the idea that mana=defense, manaless=offense, i just think they are different playstyles and I dont think I ever described them that way. I did say manaless is a highly offensive risk that limits escape options by throwing mana out of the equation.
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Post Wednesday, 26th June 2013, 02:27

Re: unfinished skald god proposal

Also with respect to Djinn...

If the 'this god hates mana' line goes through then its probably better to not allow them to join, otherwise this god is nigh useless for them and no ( non challenge ) Djinn in their right mind would join.
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Barkeep

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Post Wednesday, 26th June 2013, 14:00

Re: unfinished skald god proposal

It'd be kind of funny if djinn could join, but depress just instantly killed them.
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Post Wednesday, 26th June 2013, 15:35

Re: unfinished skald god proposal

njvack wrote:It'd be kind of funny if djinn could join, but depress just instantly killed them.

That would be pretty depressing.

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Post Wednesday, 26th June 2013, 17:58

Re: unfinished skald god proposal

For flavor, I think something about the god consuming magical energy (we're not calling it mana anymore?) would work. She both understands the power and usefulness of having mana, but also has a reason to remove it. Depress doesn't just stop your mana regeneration - it donates your mana to be consumed by <god name>. In exchange for letting her eat your mana, she extends your buffs. I think if this is used, allowing piety gain either for donating a large amount of mana initially or gradually as you keep depress on would make sense. Maybe rename Depress to something like "siphon off energy" but less cumbersome to say.

God title brainstorming:
Collector of arcane forces.
Consumer of mystical energy.
The giant mana battery in the sky. (protoss can use her to recharge their shields)

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