Vehumet Suggestion

[snow]

Instead of wizardry how about Vehumet greatly reduces the casting penalty of your gear but only for conj? This would make followers of Veh and Sif look vastly different since you could wear heavy armor and cast conj but would have trouble casting stuff like haste or invisibility. It fits the flavor and everything.

Basically veh would make casting in a plate like casting in a robe at full piety but only for conj and stuff like blink would still require a lot of armor skill to get working reliably but you wouldn't really be going for controlled blink... it just gives a lot more options and makes characters look much different.

[Sandman25]

I think it should be a new god instead of Vehumet. The new god would favor hybrids while Vehumet continued favoring pure spellcasters.

[snow]

we already have sif for pure spellcasters. if you're not a pure spellcaster you're better off with kiku than sif. veh is this sort of "if you suck at casting pick me for the wizardry" guy that is only good for challenge builds.

[pubby]

I think it should be a new god instead of Vehumet. The new god would favor hybrids while Vehumet continued favoring pure spellcasters.

You mean Ash?

Instead of wizardry how about Vehumet greatly reduces the casting penalty of your gear but only for conj?

Honestly I would still use light armour+utility spells over heavy armour. I would be fine with that change though.

[snow]

at the moment the wizardy boost is enough for something like dragon armour. problem is that only comes in around the vaults and it's just damn hard to branch that and so much easier to just wear a robe and cast some defensive spells. my proposal is to make such hybrids less of an uphill battle reliant on lucky finds.

[Sandman25]

we already have sif for pure spellcasters. if you're not a pure spellcaster you're better off with kiku than sif. veh is this sort of "if you suck at casting pick me for the wizardry" guy that is only good for challenge builds.

I pick Vehumet for mana on kills and extended range

[galehar]

Instead of wizardry how about Vehumet greatly reduces the casting penalty of your gear but only for conj?

The wizardry buff is already only for conjuration and is quite powerful. It already makes casting conjurations in heavy armour easier. What your suggesting would nerf light armour caster and make Veh's scope narrower. It would also prevent using the wizardry buff to cast higher level spells sooner which is the whole point of it.

[Mankeli]

veh is this sort of "if you suck at casting pick me for the wizardry" guy that is only good for challenge builds.

Really? Vehumet builds are challenge buids now?

[Davion Fuxa]

While I like the idea of the Heavy Armor caster, it feels like it would make Vehumet too powerful in combination to him giving you mana on kills along with the ranged boost to spells - not to mention he gifts you destructive spells. As is, he's still the most powerful Caster God for those focused on Destructive Magic.

I'd be in favor of a new 'Hybridized God' for this, or you could attempt to go back to the old proposals about a Heavy Armour Caster Species (though I doubt you'll get far with those).

[Tiber]

We already have a god for casting in heavy armor. People just think he sucks.

[khalil]

veh is this sort of "if you suck at casting pick me for the wizardry" guy that is only good for challenge builds.

Really? Vehumet builds are challenge buids now?

At the very least, there are objectively better choices.
Kiku lets you spam monsters with hordes of abominations(thanks, twisted resurection) created out of summoned corpses, and Sif lets you channel mana.
Mana on kills with veh is nice, but most of the time it's not enough to make up for the mana spent to kill whatever you were fighting, and defintley not enough to deal with any allies he might have.

[Blade]

ok wow. I laughed a bit when you called oka an "inferior trog" but this is even better. There's a reason DEFE*veh is one of the very most popular combos in Crawl, and it's because Vehumet is not in any way, shape, or form only for challenge builds.

You keep making sweeping, laughably inaccurate statements about the gods you dislike. Vehumet is fine (read: very strong if you want to cast conj spells) as-is.

[Mankeli]

veh is this sort of "if you suck at casting pick me for the wizardry" guy that is only good for challenge builds.

Really? Vehumet builds are challenge buids now?

At the very least, there are objectively better choices.
Kiku lets you spam monsters with hordes of abominations

Yeah, and Trog is much MUCH better than Vehumet if you want to play a spelless melee character. How does this relate to playing a conjurer in any way imaginable??

Edited bad quoting.

[mumra]

Mana on kills with veh is nice, but most of the time it's not enough to make up for the mana spent to kill whatever you were fighting, and defintley not enough to deal with any allies he might have.

Well, things would be wonderfully broken if Vehumet made you MP-neutral. On the other hand if you're careful with your MP expenditure and of course don't ignore your melee skills then you should always have enough MP. Sif makes things very simple for characters that want to just keep on casting spells but Vehumet can be used in conjunction with some other form of channelling and allows your magic to be more powerful than any other build.

[KennySheep]

I wouldn't be totally against Vehumet giving some tiny bonus to armored casting, but it isn't needed. If I'm building a heavily armored hybrid caster hoping to use conjurations, I was probably going with Veh anyways.

Having a new god to reduce armored casting penalties and also gift some high-level charms and hexes could be a lot of fun

[twelwe]

look at it this way:

vehemut gives you more bang for your buck, and sometimes refunds you for overcharging
sif gives you more bucks to spend because the cash register is full so she says `here have some cash back`
kiku charges sales tax and doesn't give you any dollars. you get corpses. you dont mind.
and ashenzari can`t break a 20, so he lets you keep the money and everything else

i hope this cleared everything up for the thread

[khalil]

snipitysnip
Yeah, and Trog is much MUCH better than Vehumet if you want to play a spelless melee character. How does this relate to playing a conjurer in any way imaginable??

Kiku, Veh, and Sif are the three spellcaster gods. My conjurers actually get more mileage out of Kiku than Veh.

[Wahaha]

Kiku, Veh, and Sif are the three spellcaster gods.

Yes Kiku is a spellcaster god in the sense that your character casts spells, and so is every god other than Trog.

[Davion Fuxa]

Kiku, Veh, and Sif are the three spellcaster gods.

Yes Kiku is a spellcaster god in the sense that your character casts spells, and so is every god other than Trog.

A key part of Kikubaaqudgha's sphere is that the God helps would-be Necromancers, since worship eventually gives you access to some Necromancer books, and Necronomicon should you really want to delve deeply into the Art, and reagents for your craft. True, you don't have to focus all that much on casting Necromancy (or at all), but the God certainly helps you be a spellcaster in Necromancy should you want to be moreso then other non-spellcaster oriented Gods would.

[khalil]

Kiku, Veh, and Sif are the three spellcaster gods.

Yes Kiku is a spellcaster god in the sense that your character casts spells, and so is every god other than Trog.

...
Are you just trolling?
Kiku gifts spellbooks and enhances your magic. That's a spellcaster god right there.

[evilmike]

Yes, lots of gods help casters (some more than others), but kiku is one of the three in Crawl which are specifically designed as "spellcaster gods". It's not even just the book gifting, his corpse drop power is meant to be used with spells, and everything he does scales off your necromancy skill.

[Mankeli]

snipitysnip
Yeah, and Trog is much MUCH better than Vehumet if you want to play a spelless melee character. How does this relate to playing a conjurer in any way imaginable??

Kiku, Veh, and Sif are the three spellcaster gods. My conjurers actually get more mileage out of Kiku than Veh.

Yes, they are. Kiku is very powerful and if I'm playing melee transmuter hybrids or mummy summoner I consider Sif. My post was somewhat poorly written because I was in shock after reading that someone thinks Vehu builds are challenge builds. What I meant was, in which way does Kiku or Sif help playing a conjurer (and I mean actually killing monsters with conjurations) so much more than Vehumet. They are all useful deities for spellcasters depending on which and how much spells are you planning on casting. However, claiming that Vehumet is a challenge god for true conjurers is absurd.

[Sar]

Kiku gifts spellbooks and enhances your magic. That's a spellcaster god right there.

What he probably means is that Kiku gives you Necromancy books, and Necromancy lends itself to a hybrid playing style, and Kiku's (one of, but it's probably a better one) final gift is a kick-ass weapon brand.

[khalil]

Kiku's (one of, but it's probably a better one) final gift is a kick-ass weapon brand.

Necromutation is invaluable for any high level caster, and it only appears in the Necronomicon.
It's just like being a mummy, except you don't objectively suck.
Plus, pain is useless in the post-endgame content.

[Sar]

Pain is useful immediately after you get it though, and is good for the entirety of normal game (the only part of the game you need to complete to win). But whatever.

[prozacelf]

I agree. I'd rather get the Pain brand nine times out of ten. If you do it to a weapon that's already pretty good, it'll be great against things that are vulnerable to pain and still usable against others. Necromancy has a lot of its pretty good spells outside of the Necronomicon (Agony, Bolt of Draining, Twisted Res, etc.) And if you're already undead Haunt is the only spell you can use out of the Necronomicon anyway, and it's in the Grand Grimoire too.

E: And in my experience you're a lot more likely to find a Necronomicon than a pain weapon--especially of a type you've got any skill in or want to use.

[njvack]

Necromutation is invaluable for any high level caster

Replace "invaluable" with "not very valuable" and I'm in agreement.

I don't hate it as much as some of the blues in the Tavern, but I doubt I'll learn it again in its current form. It requires a huge investment in tmut and necro (which don't synergize particularly well) and honestly: mutations, torment, and spell hunger all have cheaper solutions.

Necromut is, IMO, the least useful spell in the necronomicon.