Stats and Starting Stats

[snow]

You only get to distribute 9 stat points and usually it's all just dropped into the same stat. Meanwhile starting stats vary to an absurd degree depending on your background. It has always SERIOUSLY bugged me how little choice you're given and I feel that:

1. Your species should determine your starting stats and nothing else (ESPECIALLY not background choice which already determines so many other things)
2. You should gain a point in a stat (that you pick) every level

Now this might cause some casters to start with lower int and have an abysmal success rate but honestly I feel that the weight at which int effects casting is too high and should be lowered so that a high elf wizard might put some day points into dex and a troll might actually cast a level 3 spell without a crazy high failure rate. To elaborate more maybe every species could have what amounts to an invisible +10 int and then have actual int levels count 1/2 as much... or something to that effect.

It's awkward that most combinations that use heavy armor start with more strength than they'd ever need. It would be nice if they had a reason to get it up. Also it's important to note that I recently played a game wearing a plate at 10 strength and cleared lair and orc with no trouble (and eventually made some ice dragon armor in vaults)... so starting with slightly lower strength wouldn't be game breaking.

Finally dexterity is just that stat where you put point when you have nothing better to do with them. Can this change? If you started with much lower dexterity than the obnoxiously large amount you do now then possibly.

[reaver]

(ESPECIALLY not background choice which already determines so many other things)

What? Your Background is basically irrelevant Post-Lair. If anything, Backgrounds choices should be more relevant.

Now this might cause some casters to start with lower int and have an abysmal success rate

Casting spells is sort of the defining features of spellcasters. One major reason skalds are being reworked is they had no Level 1 spell. If the only advantage to spellcasters was starting with an unusable book they would be unfun, unbalanced, and unplayable.

I do understand the problem you're trying to solve here, and it's a good effort. The stat imbalance it a well-known problem and I'm glad that people are still trying to find solutions. This just isn't the right way, though. Look at the recent EVP changes for the kind of solutions that will solve this problem - making str more relevant without stressing other parts of the game.

[crate]

btw int doesn't matter very much for spell success really ... its effect on spellpower is dramatically more important

[pubby]

How about rings?

Fighters could start with a +3 str ring, casters with +3 int ring, and stabbers with +3 dex ring.

[KennySheep]

How about rings?

Fighters could start with a +3 str ring, casters with +3 int ring, and stabbers with +3 dex ring.

Doesn't that lead to pretty much the same problem, only now eating up one inventory/ring slot on every starting character?

[snow]

What? Your Background is basically irrelevant Post-Lair. If anything, Backgrounds choices should be more relevant.

This isn't true. For one your starting stats count as a severe limiting factor for what you can and can't do for the rest of the game. This is especially true for any background that starts with extremely low int because with only 9 points to allocate you're not going to get very far.

The problem becomes worse with any attempts to make "stats matter more." So now you want however many points of whatever for this or that. Good fucking luck getting there it if you don't start with most of it.

Also is it such a bad idea to give players choices in where to point their stats instead of just front loading them? Furthermore the "gain random stat at level x" takes any feeble attempt at stat planning and tosses it out the window. I know Crawl development is all about removing features and and adding gimmicks but something as simple and fundamental as stat management could at least be left up to the player instead of the starting kit and RNG.

[crate]

jiyva_reasons

[Sandman25]

I'm in support of background not determining stats, it's really dumb how e.g. He gets spells more easily than Fi.

This can be fixed by adjusting starting stats of He.

I disagree with idea in the OP. I've seen DEGl (Nemelex' choice) with Fire Storm in the latest tournament who had only 26 Int and could not spam the spell and I kind of liked it.
If you start as TrHu you should not be able to get high Int, otherwise difference between species (not no mention backgrounds) will be negligible spell-wise. We should not be able to create level 9 spammer from Be or CPA-wearing fighter from Wz.

[snow]

I'm in support of background not determining stats, it's really dumb how e.g. He gets spells more easily than Fi.

This can be fixed by adjusting starting stats of He.

I disagree with idea in the OP. I've seen DEGl (Nemelex' choice) with Fire Storm in the latest tournament who had only 26 Int and could not spam the spell and I kind of liked it.
If you start as TrHu you should not be able to get high Int, otherwise difference between species (not no mention backgrounds) will be negligible spell-wise. We should not be able to create level 9 spammer from Be or CPA-wearing fighter from Wz.

"I like the fact that if you start as a berserker you can't become a wizard but if you start as a wizard you can easily become a berserker." Alright. Why do you like this one sided limitation? Realistically you never go from one side all the way to the other because it's a waste of xp... what really happens is maybe wear some lighter armor and pick up a few utility spells, or stick with level 4 or 5 conjurations and up your armor a bit. You get varied builds when you give players more options. And, news flash: all zig clearers look identical (except for species and god) unless it's some sort of challenge run.

SO THE PROBLEM YOU'RE AFRAID OF ALREADY EXISTS. The solution to the problem of "everyone looking the same" is to give players MORE OPTIONS! And the first, most basic fundamental option, is to nerf int and let players distribute their stats more often. It blows my mind that you'd reference one firestormer firestorming slightly differently than another firestormer as something you liked.

You know what I'd like to see? A day when it's not a challenge run to start without a book and clear a zig. This is getting seriously off topic though. The main issue is how stats limit flexibility in their current form and force everyone into the same builds.

[Sandman25]

I agree with idea of nerfing int. But it should not be confused with "let players distribute their stats more often". You are complaining that your Tr has problems casting level 3 spells (so it is really different from other species!) and then you are writing "The solution to the problem of "everyone looking the same" is to give players MORE OPTIONS".
I don't get it. If player has more options, zig clearers will be identical because there is an optimal zig clearer (Gh of Makhleb with Antimagic Executioner Axe and Tornado).

[snow]

giving a troll the option to invest a large amount of xp into getting a level 3 spell to work is not the same as letting it cast fire storm

furthermore the optimal zig clearer is anything that can cast lich form. i've cleared zigs with spens which have horrible int... and there isn't much a hat of int/+5 ring of int can't fix at that point in the game. i'm not really talking about zigs though, they aren't important since at that point every caster ALREADY looks exactly the same and you're splitting hairs when you say one firestormers firestorms are slightly different than anothers.

i'm refering to that post lair/bulk of the game where you're gathering runes. at the moment gl/fi look identical by the temple and hu/as join them around the lair. you either go trog/oka -> tso, or go kiku for pain brand... and even then by vaults you're just stair dancing with tab. on the other side, as a pure caster, you're just hitting things with whatever functionally identical bolt spell you fancy all game while memorizing the exact same utility spells. By zot all "casters" look near identical except for maybe 1 or 2 spell differences and all "tabbers" look identical except for if they're using a pole arm or axe.

I want the option for more middle ground characters. You keep mentioning zigs which are already so far gone and dominated by tornado/fire storm builds that they're not even worth trying to fix yet. Though if I had to try to fix them I'd start by moving a lot of utility things out of spells and into evocations like having mass abjuration an evocable that requires a large investment in evocations. I'd also probably add more varying layouts to zigs so lolfirestorm doesn't work as well.

[Sandman25]

giving a troll the option to invest a large amount of xp into getting a level 3 spell to work is not the same as letting it cast fire storm

furthermore the optimal zig clearer is anything that can cast lich form. i've cleared zigs with spens which have horrible int... and there isn't much a hat of int/+5 ring of int can't fix at that point in the game. i'm not really talking about zigs though, they aren't important since at that point every caster ALREADY looks exactly the same and you're splitting hairs when you say one firestormers firestorms are slightly different than anothers.

i'm refering to that post lair/bulk of the game where you're gathering runes. at the moment gl/fi look identical by the temple and hu/as join them around the lair. you either go trog/oka -> tso, or go kiku for pain brand... and even then by vaults you're just stair dancing with tab. on the other side, as a pure caster, you're just hitting things with whatever functionally identical bolt spell you fancy all game while memorizing the exact same utility spells. By zot all "casters" look near identical except for maybe 1 or 2 spell differences and all "tabbers" look identical except for if they're using a pole arm or axe.

I want the option for more middle ground characters. You keep mentioning zigs which are already so far gone and dominated by tornado/fire storm builds that they're not even worth trying to fix yet. Though if I had to try to fix them I'd start by moving a lot of utility things out of spells and into evocations like having mass abjuration an evocable that requires a large investment in evocations. I'd also probably add more varying layouts to zigs so lolfirestorm doesn't work as well.

I am with you here. I had the same feeling about almost identical late game characters viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7051&p=94333

[tasonir]

You don't have to play cookie cutter builds if you don't want to. I play unarmed statues of Chei for a reason

There are other options out there which have a lot of internal synergy and are strong builds eventually. The usual drawback is they take longer to get all the pieces together and die a lot in the early game. Also, I tend to suck

[galehar]

It's awkward that most combinations that use heavy armor start with more strength than they'd ever need. It would be nice if they had a reason to get it up.

Strength has now a smoother effect on heavy armour, so raising it will always reduce the penalty. Also, I just doubled the effect of stats on melee.

[TeshiAlair]

This may be a completely stupid idea that I haven't thought through, but what if your skills also buffed your stats slightly (say 1 point every 9 ranks or so) It would make logical sense that training things like fighting and weapon skills would make you stronger, or that practicing spells would make you smarter. Alternatively, you could encourage diversification by having it be the result of combined skills (i.e., having 3 spell skills at 8+ would give a point of int, but maxing Conj wouldn't)

This may have multiplicative issues, but I think it would give the player a bit more control, and allow changing game plan partway through the game.

[Sandman25]

This may be a completely stupid idea that I haven't thought through, but what if your skills also buffed your stats slightly (say 1 point every 9 ranks or so) It would make logical sense that training things like fighting and weapon skills would make you stronger, or that practicing spells would make you smarter. Alternatively, you could encourage diversification by having it be the result of combined skills (i.e., having 3 spell skills at 8+ would give a point of int, but maxing Conj wouldn't)

This may have multiplicative issues, but I think it would give the player a bit more control, and allow changing game plan partway through the game.

I think OP wants to encourage quite the opposite - having narrow characters instead of diversified ones.