Suggestions concerning Poison Magic

[njvack]

My only request for a possible high-level poison spell: please don't let it also be awesome at killing stuff out of LOS. The reason I really like Poison Arrow more than other poison spells is that it kills stuff NOW and doesn't so much encourage hit-and-run tactics.

The plague spell sounds well-designed in this regard -- who cares if a monster out of LOS is paralyzed or slowed? (You probably have 1-2 better "get away from any speed 10 monster" spells.)

[mumra]

PCloud killing out-of-LOS has been mentioned a couple of times so I should link to the implementable:
https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5548

As you can see there is a desire to have cloud spells not work outside LOS at all.

[njvack]

PCloud is particularly egregious, but once you have Swiftness, (or translocations for Rupert) poison magic is all about killing things outside of LOS -- I guess that's kind of necessarily true for a damage-over-time effect in a roguelike. I like the plague idea because it's interesting even if it does zero damage, but not at all interesting out of LOS.

It almost makes me wonder if there's a Poison/Hexes realignment hidden in there somewhere...

[Lasty]

Apparently I wasn't being at all clear, because only minmay got what I was saying: designing high level poison kill spells that only affect targets w/o rPois is pointless because there are already two great level 6 kill spells that murder anything without rPois. The hypothetical KillDudes level 8 Poison spell is relatively useless because you have spells that are quite nearly as good at level 6 already, and they require significantly less training in a school which is otherwise useless.

I am absolutely not saying that we need a high level poison spell that kills rPois monsters. I am saying that there's useful design space available for a high level Poison spell that does something -- anything -- that might in any way help the user fight rPois monsters. It could be a buff, a debuff, an escape; it could warp the dungeon; it could do anything. But if it only helps when you're fighting monsters without rPois, then Poison Arrow and Poisonous Cloud make it completely redundant.

[njvack]

Not necessarily. The interesting thing about damage-over-time (look at me take both sides of my argument!) is that it leaves monsters alive for a while. PCloud most certainly does not kill drac packs (or even, really, yaktaur packs and top-tier giants) as fast as I want them dead. I usually switch or augment poison with other more immediate killing tools by late D.

An irresistable debuff on poisonable monsters would be potentially interesting to me through Zot.

[Southpaw]

I think most people could agree the poison school is a bit lacking at the upper end. The reason nothing has ever been done about this is a lack of good original ideas. "Bigger cloud / miasma cloud / poison storm" or "Bolt of Even More Poison" just don't cut it, these are just reiterating stuff that already exists and not introducing any new mechanics.

Poison seems to limit us to a much narrower category of possible mechanics than other schools. I actually still maintain that the whole concept of the poison school should be expanded to cover acid and possibly other 'toxic' things like viral plagues, and have new high level spells based on these concepts. There have been some reasonable suggestions for acid spells now and then but there aren't enough ideas; and "acid storm" is probably the thing most often suggested for level 9 and again this just isn't different enough to interest anyone.

What about a "locust swarm" type of spell? The caster summons a swarm of poisonous insects on an enemy (possibly smite-targeted?) which can then spread to other nearby targets. The insects will deal some physical damage as they literally consume the target but will also confer poison status to appropriate enemies. This is somewhat like a "jumping sticky flame" I suppose but given the fact that we are talking about a level 8 or 9 spell that shouldn't be too much of a problem I don't think. For extra fun we could allow Ignite Poison to detonate the insects exactly as if the target had been poisoned.

[njvack]

It always kills them as fast as I want them dead. I'm pretty sure you're just using it wrong.

Well, it is me

Do note that I said "want" rather than "need" -- even if I can poison kite high-HP dudes, boy howdy does that get boring.

[mumra]

Apparently I wasn't being at all clear, because only minmay got what I was saying:

Don't worry we all got what you were saying. I still disagree with it, especially once Poison Cloud gets nerfed (minmay's argument seemed to mainly revolve around PCloud working outside LOS).

That's not to say that the plague spell couldn't have some effect on rPois monsters, I just don't agree that's necessary for the spell to see plenty of use.

[nicolae]

That's not to say that the plague spell couldn't have some effect on rPois monsters, I just don't agree that's necessary for the spell to see plenty of use.

make it so ignite poison will also light up plague-infected monsters, even rPois ones with no poisonous nature at all

[Lasty]

Apparently I wasn't being at all clear, because only minmay got what I was saying:

Don't worry we all got what you were saying. I still disagree with it, especially once Poison Cloud gets nerfed (minmay's argument seemed to mainly revolve around PCloud working outside LOS).

That's not to say that the plague spell couldn't have some effect on rPois monsters, I just don't agree that's necessary for the spell to see plenty of use.

Ok, fair enough. If it turns out that a large group of people disagree with me and such a spell gets created, I'll certainly try it, and maybe I'll eat my words. Still, I really have a hard time envisioning it being better than just putting that XP into Conjurations and using Poison Arrow to kill single targets and Bolt spells / Freezing Cloud -> Fire Storm / Ice Storm on groups. The latter is highly effective and stays good all game, including against the liches, bone dragons, tentacled horrors, electric golems, dragons, orbs of fire, death cobs, curse toes, green draconians, and summoned fiends in Zot.

[mumra]

Ok, fair enough. If it turns out that a large group of people disagree with me and such a spell gets created, I'll certainly try it, and maybe I'll eat my words. Still, I really have a hard time envisioning it being better than just putting that XP into Conjurations and using Poison Arrow to kill single targets and Bolt spells / Freezing Cloud -> Fire Storm / Ice Storm on groups. The latter is highly effective and stays good all game, including against the liches, bone dragons, tentacled horrors, electric golems, dragons, orbs of fire, death cobs, curse toes, green draconians, and summoned fiends in Zot.

The "theoretical" spell you originally described wouldn't get implemented anyway. Your description was "high-level poison spell that instantly kills anything without rPois". That would be a terrible idea, just not for the reasons you stated.

[Mumcon]

Apparently I wasn't being at all clear, because only minmay got what I was saying: designing high level poison kill spells that only affect targets w/o rPois is pointless because there are already two great level 6 kill spells that murder anything without rPois. The hypothetical KillDudes level 8 Poison spell is relatively useless because you have spells that are quite nearly as good at level 6 already, and they require significantly less training in a school which is otherwise useless.

Even if a spell such as a plague spell doesn't affect monsters with rPois, I think Crawl is more interesting if players have an actual incentive to continue to put experience into the poison school past the early teens. Especially when you have a species like the octopode which is only particularly proficient in poison, stealth, and evocations, such that I could see it potentially being worthwhile to for some octopode players to train poison in order to use a level 7 or 8 spell that's doesn't kill individual monsters as fast as PArrow yet is still effective and perhaps the best choice to pursue based purely on the issue of skill proficiency.

For the record, by the way, there are still some non-rPois monsters in Hell (for example, hell knights) and a plague spell for which a single use would propagate through all rPois and non-rPois monsters and disable many of the non-rPois ones for a period of time could be an excellent tool--depending entirely on how effective it is (if it's a level 7 hexes/poison spell, it'd at least have to be more effective than Mass Confusion to be worthwhile).

[njvack]

I think Crawl is more interesting if players have an actual incentive to continue to put experience into the poison school past the early teens.

Well... kinda maybe? I mean, you're going to stop training some of your skills before they get to big numbers. Staves, Short Blades, Shields, Traps... all of these have diminishing returns such that the sane thing to do is generally stop training them at fairly low levels.

I agree that Poison Magic is unique among the spell schools in that it warrants less investment. I don't agree that this is bad in and of itself. (In fact, a destructive school without a L9 nuke may actually be good.)

[XuaXua]

If certain skills become useless when you reach a particular level, and that level is only known via spoiled knowledge, then it should become common game knowledge and/or the skill should cease gaining value.

[XuaXua]

Also, holy shit Poison Arrow is basically the best super-cheap spell to just get and spam.

It damages and kills ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. I just won a game with it (from a Demonspawn who had only 8 Poison skill, but tons of Conjuring) and killed most of the extended endgame with it. It seems way OP for what it is purported to be. Taking down Stone Giants.

IMHO, it should deal less physical damage on hits, but issue red poison status.

[Danei]

How about a high level spell that allows the player to benefit from being poisoned, in some way? This would have synergy with olgreb's, and also be useful in extended.

[Sandman25]

How about a high level spell that allows the player to benefit from being poisoned, in some way? This would have synergy with olgreb's, and also be useful in extended.

I think defense is mostly useless in extended provided there are torment and hellfire. At least my similar suggestion for new buf spell was rejected instantly. It looks like the buf should greatly improve melee/ranged attack.

[DracheReborn]

My idea is a bit out of the left field, but I was just thinking about how closely related poisons are to medicines/drugs, i.e. most pharmaceuticals have active ingredients that are toxic at higher concentrations.

So how about a high level Poison spell that gives the caster a buff in exchange for self-inflicting poisoned status. Call the spell "caffeine" or "red bull" or whatever (ok, I suck at names), but let's say it gives the caster the effects of potions of might, agility, brilliance, and magic. As a high level caster, I guess the Int boost and mana replenishment are most useful, but the others are nice too and fits the spell. Curing the poison status would also stop the buff effect.

Concerns:

1) A L7-8 spell that merely duplicates potion effects might seem a bit overkill, but then Haste is a L6 spell that does the same thing as a potion (granted, speed is probably the best potion in the game). I would like a more interesting buff (on the level of say, Death's door) but I couldn't think of any.

2) Poison status might be merely an inconvenience for a high level character (especially with regeneration!), but I think having it as severely poisoned status should make any character take notice. My idea is that the poison should be dangerous enough that the caster would want to voluntarily end the spell in 4-5 turns. Correspondingly though, the buff should be useful enough to have a big impact in those 4-5 turns - not sure if stat boost qualifies.

3) Poison status should be easy enough to remove (either as part of the spell, Cure Poison, or potion of curing), but the caster will still be at a dangerous low HP state at the end of it. This further downside means that the buff will really have to be worth it.

Sorry for not presenting a fully fledged idea. But hopefully someone can take this "poison as drug" idea and run with it further.

[Lasty]

The "theoretical" spell you originally described wouldn't get implemented anyway. Your description was "high-level poison spell that instantly kills anything without rPois". That would be a terrible idea, just not for the reasons you stated.

Yeah, of course. I wasn't proposing that anyone make such a thing, because it's obviously awful. I was using the most extreme example to try to highlight the issue that I saw.

[Lasty]

Also, holy shit Poison Arrow is basically the best super-cheap spell to just get and spam.

It damages and kills ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. I just won a game with it (from a Demonspawn who had only 8 Poison skill, but tons of Conjuring) and killed most of the extended endgame with it. It seems way OP for what it is purported to be. Taking down Stone Giants.

IMHO, it should deal less physical damage on hits, but issue red poison status.

Yeah, Poison Arrow is basically LCS with better range and major after-damage against anything vulnerable to poison. It's not great against rPois+++, doing a little less than IMB on average, at least at medium power.

  Code:

At 100 power:              Dice:   Avg:
Iron Shot:                 9d11    54
LCS:                       10d13   71
Poison Arrow:              4d29    61 + heavy poison
Poison Arrow vs rPois+++:          18.3
IMB:                       2d23    24


  Code:

At 150 power:              Dice:   Avg:
Iron Shot:                 9d15    72
LCS:                       10d18   96
Poison Arrow:              4d42    86 + heavy poison
Poison Arrow vs rPois+++:          25.8
IMB (capped at 100 power): 2d23    24


Nerfing the irresistible component of Poison Arrow would make it a somewhat worse for players (it's already only 30% irresistible), but if it was balanced out by causing red poison status it would leave monster balance similar overall, because players can't get rPois+++.

[khalil]

@Lasty
Sort of. Players can't become fully immune to poison, but one pip of rPois provides a 90% chance to not get poisoned.
@DracheReborn
Ideas out of left field are great! One of the main problems the devs' stated is that they don't want "Like memphic cloud, but with miasma" or other such things.
Poison is a school with a narrow focus, and adding support spells can't hurt.

[XuaXua]

You don't have to train Poison even near 10 if your Conjurations and Spellcasting are high enough. I was taking down so many things beyond where I thought and expected the point of utility for the spell had passed.

[rebthor]

The point is that "branch out and be flexible based on the things you find in the dungeon" is exactly the same kind of no-brainer as "don't die to the monsters", ie, one that is so completely obviously not a design problem in any way that labelling it a no-brainer and saying that it needs to be changed would be totally laughable and nobody would ever do it.

I wish someone had told me "don't die to monsters." It would have made so many of my games more fun.

[Volteccer_Jack]

It seems way OP for what it is purported to be.

Have you tried using Iron Shot or Bolt of Fire/Cold or Freezing Cloud or even Lightning Bolt on a character who also has Poison Arrow? Iron Shot is already better than Poison Arrow against rPois monsters. Orbs of fire, liches, you know, stuff that matters.

You don't have to train Poison even near 10 if your Conjurations and Spellcasting are high enough.

You can do the same with Iron Shot quite easily. Like this character for instance, who had Lehudib's Crystal Spear and 0 Earth skill:
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Volte ... 041836.txt
Or this one who used Iron Shot as his primary source of damage despite only 6 Conjuration skill (and enough Air skill for Tornado):
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Volte ... 224443.txt

The point is, training both skills will result in more spellpower, faster.

[Lasty]

The point is, training both skills will result in more spellpower, faster.

Yeah, but training Earth makes more sense than Poison, because the points you put into Earth a) will be useful against any monster you fight at any point during the game, and b) also powers up useful spells like Stoneskin and Shatter. Training Poison really only helps Poison Arrow do more damage and nothing else.

[crate]

well it also helps you cast that other super good level 6 poison spell that kills everything

[pubby]

Death's door could be changed to be necromancy/poison magic. Poison sends you to death, necromancy brings you back.

Infection has a nice theme, but from what I've read it sounds very similar to Zin's recite.



For a spell idea: "Olgreb's Anesthetic".
This spell causes your living body to become numb, losing your sense of pain and responsiveness. Unfortunately, it has some nasty effects on your brain.

This means:
- Torment/pain immunity
- Better than DD damage shaving
- int/dex temporarily reduced
- Misleads you (Mara effect)

[jejorda2]

Move Haste to the Poison school, and have the speed depend on how poisoned you are?

Then the charms school can be removed, and all the low level buffs can be single school.

[DracheReborn]

For a spell idea: "Olgreb's Anesthetic".
This spell causes your living body to become numb, losing your sense of pain and responsiveness. Unfortunately, it has some nasty effects on your brain.

This means:
- Torment/pain immunity
- Better than DD damage shaving
- int/dex temporarily reduced
- Misleads you (Mara effect)

I really like this. Kind of reminds me of the comic book hero Darkman, one of who's powers is he can't feel pain (due to nerve surgery after having been badly burned).

Should be a decent defense/escape spell, and maybe a useful option for melee hybrids doing extended.

[Bim]

I like it, it adds versatility to poison, and is an interesting way to go with making it a viable school for other builds. However, I think mislead is a pretty heavy penalty. Perhaps the int/dex temp reduction could be coupled with sickness instead?

[mumra]

I think something so powerful needs to come with a serious cost. The only other way to get rTorment is Necromutation - a level 8 spell which has some serious drawbacks (no potions, vulnerability to dispel, to name two). And you've stacked damage shaving on top of that, this is an extremely strong effect, DD's damage shaving is already very strong. I think you'd need to think about some sort of permanent cost to using this spell for it to be remotely balanced. There's some necromancy overlap with this idea in general but it could have potential...

[Lasty]

well it also helps you cast that other super good level 6 poison spell that kills everything

I didn't mention that since that PCloud doesn't really care about power, so you still probably don't want to train Poison past 10 to cast it. Doubly so because that spell has two other pretty good schools you could put that XP into instead.

[mumra]

"Better than DD damage shaving" is the powerful part, although rN+++ and rTorment make some of the hardest areas of the game substantially easier too. You're absolutely right about mislead, which is why I didn't even mention it, it's basically nothing more than flavour.

[pubby]

I think something so powerful needs to come with a serious cost.

I was having problems coming up with something different than both necromutation and statueform which is why it had mislead.

A few other downsides ideas:
- Unable to create memories - no gaining EXP or learning spells, possibly even forgetting some EXP
- Unable to see when walking into unexplored area
- New monsters that come into vision are invisible (ignorse sInv)
- Unable to do anything that requires feelings - no using god abilities, no berserk, etc
- int/str drain similar to summon horrible things (boring)
- each hit has a chance to cause HP rot (boring)

[XuaXua]

PCloud killing out-of-LOS has been mentioned a couple of times so I should link to the implementable:
https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5548

As you can see there is a desire to have cloud spells not work outside LOS at all.

Offtopic, but this would suck for nightstalker mutation.

[Fergy]

Acid Bolt - Lv 5 - Poison Magic / Earth / Conjuration
50% Poison Damage, 50% Acid Damage

Getting both this, and the poison cloud spells at a high level would be difficult.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Acid Bolt - Lv 5 - Poison Magic / Earth / Conjuration
50% Poison Damage, 50% Acid Damage

Getting both this, and the poison cloud spells at a high level would be difficult.

A) No it wouldn't, 2 out of 3 skills are the same. You are overestimating the effect of anti-training: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Volte ... 224443.txt
B) Venom Bolt already exists
C) Acid is a No-No.

[mumra]

Acid Bolt - Lv 5 - Poison Magic / Earth / Conjuration
50% Poison Damage, 50% Acid Damage

Getting both this, and the poison cloud spells at a high level would be difficult.

C) Acid is a No-No.

Let me make something clear: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:wont_do - the "won't do" list does not mentioned "acid spells".

I'm not entirely sure where this idea has proliferated from, to my knowledge no devteam member has outright stated that acid spells would never happen. There are certainly a number of problematic factors with the effect but I hope that if there was an idea with sufficient depth and interesting new mechanics then it'd be given due consideration.

However I hoped it was fairly clear by now that "Yet Another Bolt of Foo" spells are highly undesirable and just plain boring, whatever form the Foo takes. Especially when the proposal isn't even slightly fleshed out and doesn't appear to have been thought through for more than a minute.

[Speleothing]

I'm likeing the 'immunity + insanity' self-buff idea. As was said earlier, useful versus rpois+ enemies doesn't have to mean irresistable damage. My proposal was a net-like effect, but this one seems better.

[mumra]

I'm likeing the 'immunity + insanity' self-buff idea. As was said earlier, useful versus rpois+ enemies doesn't have to mean irresistable damage. My proposal was a net-like effect, but this one seems better.

I'm curious, can you elaborate on the net effect?

[njvack]

Let me make something clear: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:wont_do - the "won't do" list does not mentioned "acid spells".

I'm not entirely sure where this idea has proliferated from, to my knowledge no devteam member has outright stated that acid spells would never happen. There are certainly a number of problematic factors with the effect but I hope that if there was an idea with sufficient depth and interesting new mechanics then it'd be given due consideration.

At some point, I believe a dev commented that one of the big ways poison is different from acid is that quite a lot of the game resists poison while basically nothing resists acid -- which is OK, because players don't have much access to poison attacks. But adding a high-damage acid spell changes the school from having diminishing usefulness to everlasting usefulness, unless a bunch of stuff gets acid resistance and then it's just another element so meh.

But I agree: this was more of an "acid storm and acid cloud and bolt of acid are bad ideas" than a "poison will never incorporate acid at all" statement.

[Jeremiah]

If you want an acid spell that is not a bolt/storm/cloud, how about some kind of "acid wave" that creates a wall of acid which moves forward each turn, engulfing everything in its path. It could possibly also expand sideways, starting off 1 tile wide and affecting a larger area as it gets further away. There could be a persistent effect on the tiles it passes over, with them remaining acidic for several turns.

Smart monsters may be able to avoid it either by sidestepping or backing away (and smart players may wish to avoid stepping forward or blinking immediately after casting it.)

[pubby]

How about a spell which turns surrounding walls into slimy acid walls?

[Sporkman]

If you want an acid spell that is not a bolt/storm/cloud, how about some kind of "acid wave" that creates a wall of acid which moves forward each turn, engulfing everything in its path. It could possibly also expand sideways, starting off 1 tile wide and affecting a larger area as it gets further away. There could be a persistent effect on the tiles it passes over, with them remaining acidic for several turns.

Smart monsters may be able to avoid it either by sidestepping or backing away (and smart players may wish to avoid stepping forward or blinking immediately after casting it.)

So basically an acid spray/cone? Interesting, but it sounds hilariously overpowered (again, almost NOTHING resists acid). And we don't have cone targeting, since (last I checked) getting that to work would be a nightmare and a half.

How about a spell which turns surrounding walls into slimy acid walls?

That just sounds bland.

[njvack]

The other challenge with acid spells is the risk of stepping on Slime and Jiyva. Acid walls, for example.

Dazzling Spray has cone targeting. But "acid cone" sounds like "do ranged damage with acid" which is not super neat; there are a million ways to do ranged damage and both earth and pure conjurations are already irresistible.

I could imagine something like sticky flame, that would cover a monster with acid and damage it and anything adjacent (including you) but I don't know that it's particularly interesting.

[roctavian]

Well, it could be a cloud instead, which slowly expands/propogates itself in a given direction from the player's position, but I don't know how feasible that kind of cloud movement is. Intelligent monsters already try to avoid clouds, which is a nice counter, and a slowly-expanding cloud would behave differently than any other kind of attack thus far.