Make Ds mutations more gamechanging

[cjo]

cjo: Great news! Would you do me the favour and try to establish contact with Cryptic? He's a crawl dev interested in DS, and just yesterday mentioned something about them. He is most easily reached on ##crawl-dev. Just send him and/or me a message (!tell Cryptic).

I would also be very happy if you could get some other ##crawl-dev regulars have a look onto your plans, most notably elliptic. My point is not to slow you down -- the opposite, rather! As I see it, there's so much potential here, like you say, that it'd be a shame if nothing came out of it for lack of communication. If you want, you can also contact me via email, and I set up a crawl-ref-discuss email with the topics.

Cool, will do once I get a chance. Don't worry too much about slowing me down, I'm not a lightning-fast coder, I'm still new at this

[galehar]

!tell Cryptic

Actually, his IRC nick his Cryp71c, so that would be !tell Cryp71c

[cjo]

I was only on IRC briefly before being called away, but a couple of points came up:

*Adding new mutations one by one was favored over any immediate attempt to rework the whole system. This makes a lot of sense, since there's no point in trying to reorganize anything major unless we develop enough content to justify it.
*New mutations can be added one by one, regardless of whether or not they are double-edged.
*Mutations which create new mechanics (like the sonic-themed one) were favored over those which use existing ones (like tentacles), though the latter were not entirely rejected.

Also:
*mutations may be "longer" than three tiers.
*we could use some more body slot mutations that are not combat-themed

With those points in mind, I'll start tinkering, and check back as I make progress.

[Kintak]

Non-combat body slot brainstorming:
Digitigrade posture - You possess (slightly/*/very) elongated foot bones.
Disables boot slot at ranks 2 and 3. Lowers movement delay by 1/2/3.
(For reference, dogs, cats, etc. have digitigrade posture.

Bulbous brain - Your brain is big/abnormally large/freakishly large.
Cannot wear helms at any rank. +1 to spellcasting aptitude. The player gains the ability to channel mana similar to a Sif Muna follower, but success and mana gained is dependent on rank and intelligence.
(Could potentially have more than 3 ranks. May want to implement it with exhaustion or a steeper hunger cost.)

Light-footed - You have the footsteps of a cat/mouse/fly.
+1/2/3 stealth factor. 50/75/100% chance of avoiding trap activation. Negated if boots are equipped.

[Sandman25]

Thoughts-reader:
Rank 1. Instantly identifies available spells for any spellcasting moster.
Rank 2. Slightly decreases success rate of monster spells (like anit-magic).
Rank 3. Can learn monster spell from a monster in LoS (if the spell is not prohibited for use by player). Or alternatively decreases spell power of monster spells so monsters cast much weaker spells.

[cerebovssquire]

Rank 1 of thoughtreading is essentially a spoiler with some minor upsides (ie when monsters have multiple spellsets), so basically every Ds has this "mutation" already In addition, this will produce walls of text which are really not desirable.

The player gains the ability to channel mana similar to a Sif Muna follower, but success and mana gained is dependent on rank and intelligence.

I don't think copying existing mechanics is a good idea. Plus this is much stronger than any of the existing mutations, and should be balanced better (gamechanging doesn't have to be broken).

[Martyr of Zot]

This is my list. It is mainly taken from the current list of Ds mutations, though there is a bit more to it than that. I have attempted to consolidate similar groups of powers. I also looked through the abilities of monstrous demons, and have adapted some of those.

I favour having 5 tiers per facet, but only one facet reaching the top tier. Hence the reference to 'apex' etc. under Body Slots.

  Code:

Elemental: the different scales all give an AC bonus; keep this? or allow more varied effects?
  Cold
    (rC+, conserve potions, rF-, passive Freeze)
  Earth
    (+AC, rElec, +Str, +Bolt attack?, is there an earth tremor type power?, see Tank below)
  Electric
    (rElec, +EV, Repel Missile, Static Discharge)
  Fire [room for 2 flavours]
    (rF+, conserve scroll, rC-, Ignite Blood, Hellfire, passive heat brand, create steam in water)
  Necromancy
    (rN+, rTorment, Pain/Vampirism attacks, some Necro powers are too specialised to fit, see below)
  --
  Acid [is closer to Jellies than demons and this power would lead to abandoning a lot of ruined items.]
    (rAcid+, Acid Cloud/Aura that damages items and monsters, consume items for nutrition &/or healing)
  Poison [is in several other races' bags of tricks. Maybe should exist but be rare.]
    (rP+, add poison brand to natural attacks, Spit poison, Summon/Control venomous beasts)

Body Slot: apex (ranks 4&5) would open a new body slot, leading to a montrous type build.
  the usual: Claws, Horns, Hooves, Talons
  others: Tail, Stinger, Tentacle, Beak, Bite, Lashing Tongue, Pincers etc.
  also: Spines would fit in this category

Moves: the first two contradict each other, but otherwise could they be combined?
  Tank
    (AC+, EV-, speed-, damage+, Strength+, HP+)
  Zipster
    (speed+, EV+, Dex+, AC-?, HP-, occassionally stalls like a Sixfirhy)
  Blinking [is probably a little thin as a stand alone ability]
    (+Blink with different degrees of control & range, EV+, copy Rakshasa moves?)
  Stealthy
    (Stealth++, LoS range-, maybe damps Noise, maybe boosts Stab, summon shadows or similar)

Necromantic Specialisms
  Raise / Command Undead
  Regeneration (Powered by Death)
  Sacrifice HP for Magic boost (Feed on Pain, Augmentation)
  Sacrifice HP for Slaying boost (other side of Augmentation, mirror damage)

Others
  Cause Rotting/Miasma
    (ie Foul stench, will tend to decay chunks, how powerful is this mutation?)
  Hexing: to reflect the status effects monster demons like to inflict on the player. Currently pretty vague.
    (Zin's recite looks like a good model, or at least a list of appropriate effects)
  Summon Demon
    (maybe stretch this so 1st tier needs 5 levels, can add charm/fear/pacify for lower tiers)
  Divination
    (currently we have Antennae which players complain is underpowered. Clarity would fit, as would some of Ash's other powers, +Int?)
  Resistance Boosts: I think these would lack flavour & lead to complacent play styles but for completeness...
    (rMagic+, Clarity, rMut etc.)

[Kintak]

I don't think copying existing mechanics is a good idea. Plus this is much stronger than any of the existing mutations, and should be balanced better (gamechanging doesn't have to be broken).

While I cannot argue that copying existing mechanics is good, the suggestion was in no way unbalanced or broken in and of itself. As stated, it could inflict exhaustion or have a steeper hunger cost than Sif Muna, resulting in the restoration of much less mana for the same "cost" in time units or satiation. That's not to mention that I did not suggest any actual numbers.
My overall intent was to suggest a mutation that bestows an innate mana regeneration in the DS, which would be unique as all other characters are dependent on god-given, item-based, or natural regeneration.

[siprus]

It's really annoying to play race which requires you to have multiple possible routes to plan your character, but on other hand you might have to adapt your build at any level. Too radical changes basically force you to restart when they happen (or play on hating that one mutation all the time) or limit your build choices.

Ns mutation has problem that it's useful only for few builds, but on other hand it ruins so many other builds. Most mutations which give you disadvantage should give you minor disadvantage which wouldn't ruin build, while advantage being potentially very strong (if you can stretch your build around it) or mediocre if you can't.
Ns mutation is very annoying since it's potential to break your character is huge, while giving very minor benefit, unless you planned to get NS mutation, in which case you very very lucky or persistent.

Personally I agree that Ds need bit of an over haul since many of the mutation are very interesting and useful, while other being bit meh. I'd think it would be nice to be always get at least 1 elemental/cloud mutation since i find them most fun to get. Also it might be good idea to give scale mutation small rebalance, since roughblack scales often feels like nerf, Elemental resistances feel useful but bit meh and don't really help you with early game (which can be problem for demon spawn), while rugged, iridescent and radiance feel likes gifts from god.

Also i think that how fast you acquire your mutations should be bit less random, and body slot mutation should happen relatively soon, since it's useful early game but hampers your late game.

Maybe scale and body slot mutation sould be maxed out by level 15.

[mumra]

I should really voice my support and gratitude for Nightstalker, I got my first win with it so I can guarantee it is strong. I didn't remotely plan for it (hell, I didn't even fully understand exactly what it did until very late in the game) so I definitely disagree it's impossible to adapt to.

[dpeg]

Agreed. Nightstalker's problem is certainly not the power. An actual problem might be annoyance. As I said, I never had it in my Nightstalker games, and I believe it has to do with playing style (presumably, the faster your playing speed, the more you tend to be unnerved by NS).

Put another way: if we made NS switchable ("You slip [into|out of] the shadows") which, while completely undesirable, is not unthinkable, then switching it off may or may not make the game more convenient for you. Doing so would in very many case be like playing with a handicap.

By the way, somewhere I suggested that NS might have you see monsters at reduced sight (and vice versa, as now), but allow detection of features and items at normal LOS rate. No idea how awkward that would play, but it might alleviate the problem that some players have with the mutation.

[rcnr]

Can I add a suggestion?

Explosive Casting

Every time you deal damage or apply a status effect with spells, positive or negative, the affected creature is the center of a 40% irresistable fireball. Damage scales with level

Pros: Spells are way stronger, especially early on. Ridiculous things like casting corona for 1 mana fireballs, olgreb's intoxication fireball, ignite poison fireball. Melee gets to use this with wands.

Cons: Your casting is always super loud. self buffs aren't nearly as good anymore, even with rF+++. No point blank spells unless you want to get roasted.

[cerebovssquire]

Ridiculous things like casting corona for 1 mana fireballs

I think you answered your propsal yourself??

[Shagoth]

I personally play pretty much only Demonspawns and, since I´m not too experienced, think that the Mutations already do induce a very adopting playstyle. So more gamechanging-mutations would only make people, who would rather play other race, realize that.
Mutations that play around with the gods, would be pretty interesting, in my opinion. I have to admit, that I dont know if that would be annoing to program.
They would be something like this:
Nephilim-Heritage:
You can´t worship evil gods, but now you can worship good gods. (If you already do worship an evil god, you could get some kind of Penance-reducer. Like: Out of embaressment for not having noticed that disgusting resamblance to that angel from back then, Kiku rather would ignores you.
This probably needs some more bonuses and could also go in 3 stages, with the first, giving you access to holy weapons and good gods, with an maulus, the second making you kind of neutral and the third making you holy(and unable to worship an evil god), and increasing your compability with holy weapons.
And it goes together really well with the Wings-Mutation.

Archparent
The name of your long forgotten parent suddenly comes back and floods you with it´s power, while making you less pietous.
This could be some kind of Demigod-like mutation, that greatly buffs you(+MP,HP?+resistances?+slaying?), while decreasing your piety-gain or giving you an invocation-maulus.

I not natively english speaking, so please forgive my mistakes.

[Galefury]

Archparent
The name of your long forgotten parent suddenly comes back and floods you with it´s power, while making you less pietous.
This could be some kind of Demigod-like mutation, that greatly buffs you(+MP,HP?+resistances?+slaying?), while decreasing your piety-gain or giving you an invocation-maulus.

It could cap piety at 5/4/3 stars. Or 4/2/-.

[siprus]

I think making body slot mutations to hit game very early, would help off set terrible early game of demonspawns. Body slot mutation sucks late game (cause it block item slots) but can be useful early game. This would give demonspawn bit smoother start, thought this might encourage monk scumming.

[Sandman25]

I think making body slot mutations to hit game very early, would help off set terrible early game of demonspawns. Body slot mutation sucks late game (cause it block item slots) but can be useful early game. This would give demonspawn bit smoother start, thought this might encourage monk scumming.

I played Ds just once but I have different feeling - body slot mutations are actually bad mutations for non-monstrous Ds (especially for casters) so the later they appear the better. They are roughly equivalent of -3 AC if the character has +2 gloves/boots/helmet and 0 Armour skill.

[TehDruid]

The Nephilim Heritage idea made me wonder... Has there ever been any thought of splitting Demonspawns into two different species? To make this simple, what I'm thinking of is something like Aasimars and Tieflings in D&D.

Or, to phrase this better, have a single species called Outsider (as is the D&D trope), which may procure demonic or holy mutations as you level up (but they're exclusive to each other).

[prozacelf]

That would be a little weird though, because Zin hates mutations, so it'd be odd for him to either not accept or throw down penance on a "holyspawn" who can't help getting mutations. At the very least it'd need to have an exception for Zin. Also, a lot of the demonspawn mutations are double edged, so flavor-wise it might take a bit of justification if holy mutations were to also be double edged. Either that or they would presumably need some other balancing to be roughly equivalent to demonspawn.

[dpeg]

The Nephilim Heritage idea made me wonder... Has there ever been any thought of splitting Demonspawns into two different species? To make this simple, what I'm thinking of is something like Aasimars and Tieflings in D&D.

Or, to phrase this better, have a single species called Outsider (as is the D&D trope), which may procure demonic or holy mutations as you level up (but they're exclusive to each other).

We're trying to differentiate the randomised species (demonspawn and draconian). Splitting DS into two will only make that goal harder, at a point where we probably cannot be fully satisfied with what we have. In other words, if you were to split DS in two, you'd have to come up with many more *good* permanent mutations. It's not an easy task, and I'd rather ponder about DS as-is.

What's more, you won't win applause for trying to get D&D content into DCSS, at least not from me

[TehDruid]

What's more, you won't win applause for trying to get D&D content into DCSS, at least not from me

I know of your aversion towards copying D&D content and also, Tolkien lore, dpeg and I respect both. I've been around before (and during) the removal of MDs (with which I'm totally fine, btw, I never whined about it and I respect the choices devs make, for DCSS is an open project and the poeple that code don't get paid to do it, so they should have the final word when it comes to judging whether something should be implemented or removed for being redundant, etc.). I was just using the D&D analogues (although there's no mutations for Tieflings as far as I'm concerned.) to clarify what I was thinking about.

This is quite off-topic, but imo having a race that's "opposite" to the undead and DS (can worship only neutral, non-chaotic and good gods, may not use vampiric/pain/draining brands) would be cool. That is, if somebody put some effort in forming a well thought-out proposal (and of course, coding a patch).

[prozacelf]

My earlier objections notwithstanding, I do think it is a neat idea. But dpeg pointed out more germane reasons as to why it probably won't happen

[roctavian]

I think a nice thing about Crawl is that it doesn't have to be slavishly symmetrical; I love a lot of the mainstream D&D myths, but I feel it becomes less exciting and interesting when everything follows a binary, or a thesis-antithesis-synthesis, or a four-balanced-elements scheme. You can predict what things will be too easily, or one aspect of a system receives much more attention than others and it looks lopsided.

[khalil]

What's more, you won't win applause for trying to get D&D content into DCSS, at least not from me

Personaly, I fell that crawl allready uses a bunch from D&D.
Lich just means corpse. The only reason liches are wizards is because Gygax said so.
Likewise, negitive energy being what powers undead comes from D&D.
Using D&D concepts is largely unavoidable simply because that's where the concept of dungeon crawling origionates from.
What I would do myself is try to turn things on their head while keeping the same structure.
For example: Positive (healing) energy is allways seen as good, even though it's an objective force that just happens to power life. If DCSS copyed that, it would be unorigional. On the other hand, if DCSS added a evil god of positive energy that slowly turned it's servants into immortals and had a chance to brainwash creatures that used healing magic without it's permision, that would be interesting and flavorful.
Don't avoid tropes. Deconstruct them.

[Tenaya]

The Nephilim Heritage idea made me wonder... Has there ever been any thought of splitting Demonspawns into two different species? To make this simple, what I'm thinking of is something like Aasimars and Tieflings in D&D.

Or, to phrase this better, have a single species called Outsider (as is the D&D trope), which may procure demonic or holy mutations as you level up (but they're exclusive to each other).

What is an Aasimar?
What is a Tiefling?
What is an Outsider? Oh, I know this one, the Greasers, right?

[khalil]

The Nephilim Heritage idea made me wonder... Has there ever been any thought of splitting Demonspawns into two different species? To make this simple, what I'm thinking of is something like Aasimars and Tieflings in D&D.

Or, to phrase this better, have a single species called Outsider (as is the D&D trope), which may procure demonic or holy mutations as you level up (but they're exclusive to each other).

What is an Aasimar?
What is a Tiefling?
What is an Outsider? Oh, I know this one, the Greasers, right?

Is that sarcasam or an actual question?
Question wise:
Aasimar are the holy equivilent of demonspawn.
Tiefling are demonspawn.
Outsiders are creatures from outside the material plane of existance. (Elementals, angels, summons, that kind of thing)

[Tenaya]

[quote="khalil]Is that sarcasam or an actual question?
[/quote]

Those were actual questions. I don't play D&D.

[khalil]

Is that sarcasam or an actual question?

Those were actual questions. I don't play D&D.

[/quote]
Kay, hard to tell. Anyhoo, there's the answers to what all the stupid names are.
Gygax managed cats on keyboards before the home computer was even invented.
Also, ftfy.

[Synaptic]

I'm new to this game but Ds are my favorite race by far. I like the idea of new mutations incentivizing adaptation rather than working around potential negatives. If a mutation gives AC and prevents the wearing of body armour, for example, make it also reduce str and raise dex to encourage raising EV. A mutation might slow movement speed but reduce delay on actions, encouraging you to stand and fight (or the opposite if they were reversed). Making some of these mutations come guaranteed in the early game would help shape the direction of the character (if that was a design goal rather than adapting to changes midgame), resulting in the difference between an EV-based Be and a tank who wades into the think of things (relatively speaking, obviously that's not something you can or should be able to do in crawl).

I know my examples aren't the best for actual implementation, but they offer the philosophical bent I was trying to convey. Regardless of how the specifics turn out, I hope Ds keep moving in an exciting direction.

As a side note, I really like the idea of the "Archparent" mutation and limiting piety gain. I would personally like to see it, if it was ever implemented, be in a form where abilities are limited to whatever piety star you've reached, but the actual piety would still be able to go up (making piety based passive abilities still useful)