Make Ds mutations more gamechanging

[Psieye]

From the Nightstalker thread, an interesting line of conversation emerged: Nightstalker is a huge game-changer and this is something the devs see as successfully meeting the design goal (Ds is meant to be about adapting). The other Ds facets are then rather underwhelming compared to Nightstalker in forcing you to adapt: you just "feel like a human with some bonuses".

I propose the other Ds themes get overhauled to be similarly game changing. Something extreme like "you can no longer eat food, you gain nutrition by killing living/demonic/holy beings". Or perhaps that golem nutrition idea, where you "eat enchanted items for nutrition". 'Mutations' that are at the level of Octopodes wearing 8 rings but no other equipment slots (except hats).

[jejorda2]

What if this was the idea of demonspawn from the start of crawl development, and the race screen looked like this:
Human
High Elf
Deep Elf
Sludge Elf
Hill Orc
Merfolk
Halfling
Minotaur
Tengu
Draconian
Demigod
Ogre
Demonspawn

Where Demonspawn would randomly switch you the play style of one of these races after a few levels:
Deep Dwarf
Spriggan
Centaur
Kobold
Troll
Naga
Mummy
Vampire
Felid
Octopode

I don't know if I'd say, "All right! I got the no food clock and bad at everything mutation!" or "I was really hoping for the extra lives mutation this time." I think anything good enough to go with nightstalker is probably good enough to be a race, and be a decision made before the game. Human with bonuses is more playable than random race, because you know what you're looking for and can make decisions about starting class and what to train towards.

[galehar]

I propose the other Ds themes get overhauled to be similarly game changing.

Overhaul all the DS mutations? Easier said than done.

[Psieye]

I propose the other Ds themes get overhauled to be similarly game changing.

Overhaul all the DS mutations? Easier said than done.

Very true. But this is GDD, where we can discuss things with no regard for a cost/benefit analysis. I suppose ultimately I made this thread so we can ponder on the dilemma of "move Nightstalker to another race or overhaul every other Ds facet to be as radical as Nightstalker?" that came up in the other thread.

[starless]

Obviously there are players who are not happy with one "gamechanging" mutation. So I don't see how introducing more "gamechanging" mutations will make them happier.

[sanka]

Nightstalker is like playing a different race. So basically we want to come up with race ideas - not exactly easy to enough different and good proposal.

We may get ideas from the existing races and existing race ideas (like the already existing golem idea you mentioned).

- quick movement +x, -x*10% HP
- slow movement +x, +x*10% HP, +x*6 AC, builtin robe of archmagi
- slow healing1/2/3 - damage shaving
- maybe permanent forms: statue, lich? (maybe spider?) Should be better than the transmutation forms in some way.

I think that the current tier 2 and tier 3 classification of mutations are not very good. Instead drop the current tier 3 ones (or decrease the power of the more interesting ones to tier 2) and change nightstalker and new "game changing" mutation ideas to tier 3 ones: you get 2 "bonus" like mutation and 1 game changer.

[Psieye]

Obviously there are players who are not happy with one "gamechanging" mutation. So I don't see how introducing more "gamechanging" mutations will make them happier.

It won't make them happier. It'll send a clear message to them to not play the Ds race as what they wanted from that race wasn't the design goal of the species.

[starless]

To me the message of "permanent demonic mutations" is clear enough.
If I wanted to play a pure fighter with guaranteed armour slots or a pure caster with a long range, I wouldn't pick a Demonspawn.

[dpeg]

There are also players who really like Demonspawns and they might be happy to have some more mutations which actually affect their character.

That is most easily achieved by double-edged mutations, in my opinion: something like "robust but slow movement", "repulsive field but no eating of chunks" etc. (examples not made for balance, just to explain the point). Whether that's good or bad is a very subjective decision -- there definitely won't be any concensus (not even in the devteam, I'd guess).

[njvack]

If, however, there's any species where some really strange stuff would be welcome, it's DS.

I for one think DS as a "you REALLY don't know what you're going to get" experience would be fun. So I'm a proponent of "make nearly every DS facet as important as Nightstalker" route. Not that I have any brilliant mutation ideas...

[adozu]

the inverse could be possible too, something along the lines of "farsighted" that would allow a larger LOS making stabbing harder but favoring ranged combat and smite-targeted spellcasting.

[Psieye]

the inverse could be possible too, something along the lines of "farsighted" that would allow a larger LOS making stabbing harder but favoring ranged combat and smite-targeted spellcasting.

That would be kind of hard to explain as EVERY OTHER MONSTER also has to get the same LoS as the player. Not even TSO followers who glow like a flare are visible from beyond range 8.


I don't think it's as productive to discuss actual details to possible overhauled Ds facets in this thread. I just want to discuss the philosophy of making Ds extra-radical, not actually brainstorm ideas on how to do it - i.e. discuss if it would be good to do so at all or not.

[dpeg]

Psieye: When we (mostly doy, sorear and I, if my memory serves right) overhauled Demonspawn for the first time, these were the principles:
(a) all mutations are beneficial
(b) skills don't have impact on mutations

The latter was a lesson we learned from old DS -- mutations depending on skills meant that players would do all kinds of silly tricks, so it was better to abandon that.

The first one was uncontroversial at the time, and perhaps natural regarding what we were given from old DS. But perhaps DS becomes better if it is changed to:
(a') All DS mutations are beneficial except for one which is double-edged. Or:
(a'') All DS mutations are beneficial except for one which is negative.

(a'') is not so revolutionary: after all, all DS are guaranteed to have one body slot mutation. I guess the double-edged (or negative) mutation should come early in the queue, to allow for better planning (or alas, earlier quitting).

[Psieye]

(a') All DS mutations are beneficial except for one which is double-edged. Or:
(a'') All DS mutations are beneficial except for one which is negative.

Personally, I'm leaning towards (a')x2 (i.e. 2 mutations are double-edged).

But from what you've stated and what galehar stated in the other thread, I see the following logic train:
- All mutations are beneficial, in that they make your character more powerful
- Thus, Nightstalker is also considered beneficial

I agree on Nightstalker being 'beneficial' (though I've yet to get it in a non-wizmode game, so don't have first-hand experience with it). The recurring points that came up in the other thread were:
- Nightstalker is far more radical than any other mutation
- Nightstalker may make your character more powerful but may also make your character unfun/annoying to play


I look to my CeHu ranged-only challenge. My character is 'powerful' and I can easily envision a 15-rune win if I kept playing him with the necessary level of attention. But I'm not sure if I can even amass the willpower to finish a 3-rune win with him - it's extremely frustrating to play this 'powerful' style. I'd imagine it's the sort of frustration that a MuCK comes across (but many times more intense for a MuCK). Thus my point: "beneficial" doesn't necessarily mean "fun".


So to sum up, I view the (conflicting) Ds design principles should look thus:
- Skills don't impact mutations
- No mutation will be annoying/unfun
- Every Ds will end up with mostly beneficial mutations with N of them being double-edged (where N = 1 for dpeg's view, N = 2 for my view: it's a constant)
- The range of Radicalness for the mutation possibilities will be kept small: i.e. every Ds will have something super-radical or none of them will

Yes, they are potentially conflicting principles, namely "avoid unfun" vs "ensure super-radical mutation". It's tricky, as potentially 'unfun' things can be accounted for in character planning - like DD non-healing - to create a fun gameplay. But they must be accounted for early, by which I mean "before I pick my religion".

[dpeg]

Psieye: part of the problem is that "fun/unfun" is subjective! I have won Demonspawns and I never considered Nightstalker to be unfun. I believe this could have to do with the fact that I am very slow player (real time, and in game), so I don't worry about slower exploration, and also that I simply don't play as much as others.

[Psieye]

Indeed, "unfun" is highly subjective. Hmm, I see 2 swirling issues here:
1) Most other "potentially unfun" things involve a lot more player choice, either at the race selection screen or by conscious in-game decisions like drinking mutation potions. A Ds getting Nightstalker after already having invested game time doesn't get as much player choice (besides 'don't play Ds ever'). Radical things have more potential to be 'unfun'.
2) How radical Ds is meant to be is left unclear.

[sanka]

But they must be accounted for early, by which I mean "before I pick my religion".

I think it's a little bit better to get a "game changing" mutation a little bit later (like around level 8-9). That's because we want to make DS different from pressing "*" on the race selection screen. Of course you can delay choosing a god a little bit - that's part of the DS trade.

[twelwe]

From the Nightstalker thread, an interesting line of conversation emerged: Nightstalker is a huge game-changer and this is something the devs see as successfully meeting the design goal (Ds is meant to be about adapting). The other Ds facets are then rather underwhelming compared to Nightstalker in forcing you to adapt: you just "feel like a human with some bonuses".

I like the idea until

I propose the other Ds themes get overhauled to be similarly game changing. Something extreme like "you can no longer eat food, you gain nutrition by killing living/demonic/holy beings". Or perhaps that golem nutrition idea, where you "eat enchanted items for nutrition". 'Mutations' that are at the level of Octopodes wearing 8 rings but no other equipment slots (except hats).

Unless, for example, the Demonspawn get the most game-changing kind of mutation like major slot restriction/addition (however you look at it) as early as possible to prevent more complaint generators like the ever popular okawaru/demonic guardian example. Mutations as game changing as that can totally ruin a character at level 15 compared to one at level 3. I think there absolutely exists good reason to incorporate bigger changes to demonspawn because they are most certainly demon and most uncertainly something else. Couldn't we define that "something else" via mutations, like a Draconian finally figuring out it's color? One idea could be a normal three-level mutation, where the demonspawn finds out it is half demon, half octopode:

"You feel your body painfully wretching, rapidly sprouting a pair tentacles from your stomach!"
"You feel your shoulders painfully detach from your body, sprouting twin tentacles in place on both sides!"(gain four tentacles here because the hand slots go and their ring slots with them)
"Your feel your legs painfully detach from your body, sprouting a strong pair of tentacles to support you!

level 1: 4 rings, no body armour slot
level 2: 6 rings, no hands slot, no cloak slot.
level 3: 8 rings, no boots slot.

Demon-dragonspawn could get a mutation replacing (most of the) breath weapons and scale mutations by giving it to them exclusively, but not tails or poison spit which would obviously go go Demon-Nagas. Demon-Ogres would get massive strength and size mutations, along with the ability to use large two-handers. These massive changes could be phased in by adding, say, six demonspawn-(race) specific mutations along these lines and progressively adding more species except demigods and the undead, and I'm just not sure how a Demon-Human would end up looking like.

[adozu]

wasn't a demonspawn a half-human half demon? i mean... how can you be 1/2 human 1/2 demon 1/2 Op?

if anything it's the demonic half that gets revealed later, you don't start as a demon that just so happens to figure what did his demonic parent (likely) rape later on.

[dpeg]

It is absolutely fine to have "soft" DS mutations, like now. Powered by Pain/Death or Horns, Hooves etc. make excellent flavour, even if they change gameplay only a little bit.

For deeper changes of the game plan it would suffice to have just a few drastic DS mutations. We can use this space to mention ideas freely. Most likely, nothing will come of it, but just maybe we'll produce a keeper, and we will never know if we don't try.

Inspired by twelve, here's something from me:

• Tentacle mutation: One tentacle means no body armour restriction, one additional ring slot. Two tentacles mean no heavy body armour, two additional ring slots. Three tentacles mean no body armour, three additional ring slots.
  The tentacles <--> rings trope is already well established due to Octopodes. No body armour may or may not be too harsh, I wouldn't know. If it is, can restrict to light body armour (robes etc.) or, perhaps more interesting, self-made light armours (troll leather).
• Wings: fragile but flying and quick.
• Demonic gastrointestinal passage: innate high regeneration (no nutrition cost) but innability to eat chunks.
• Demonic screams: shoutitis (as the mutation) with sonic damage (like the Singing Sword).

Certainly some stinkers in the list, but perhaps it can inspire others in turn.

[Tiber]

Awakened Heritage: In high tension, you sometimes transform into a fully demonic form. Mutually exclusive with demonic guardian.
Eldritch shield: Reduced HP, but increased MP and innate guardian spirit.
Otherworldly Protector: In high tension, sometimes uses cause fear.

That's all I got for now, but the demonic screams doesn't sound bad.

[adozu]

demonic charisma: hostile demons will occasionally turn neutral to you.
(chanches based on mutlevel and enemy HD, justified by your demonic ancestry being so grand lesser demons will fear you)

malevolent telepath: will flood the mind of nearby enemies with horrible visions occasionally inducing them to run away, attack their friends or go berserk on you!
(could be a cool double-edged idea, would work on natural holyness/"smarter than a worm" enemies - supposedly realted to mara-esque kind of demons)

sadistic: inflicting injuries on your enemies exalts you so much it occasionally grants a temporary damage bonus
(i can totally see the unstable-minded spawn of some denizen of hell having this)

<i do not know how to call this>: rank 1 / hunger-, rank 2 / hunger--, rank 3 / hunger--, you do not breath, slow movement 1
(just... very radical for sure when it hits l3, i was thinking of some kind of gargoyle-like spawn except that isn't really a demon i think?)

electricty charged: rank 1 / rElec, rank 2 / rElec, occasionally recover some health when struck by electric attacks, rank 3 / rElec, occasionally electric attacks grant you a haste effect
(thinking of those sixfurry electric demons here)

[WildSam]

I play mostly Ds for a couple of years.
1-2 additional mutations of new tier, consisting of muts with awesome pluses and sick drawbacks would be nice.
But i highly recommend to not play with itemslots, especially body (mostly for sake of fighters, may be tons-of-ac-but-cant-wear-armour would be ok). We got a lot races with different slotsets already, and i believe slot restrictions are unfun. Many things in crawl give you choices (even teleportitis or body detoriation muts!), "you cant wear boots" just take them from you.
Also i dont sure if "all mutations are beneficial" is true. For most characters body-tier muts are just a lost artifact/brand item/some ac for close-to-useless auxiliary melee attack, at least after earlygame.
For people who dont like radical mutations, but still like way of adjustment, may be "soft"-Ds race would be ok?
Or not extremely rare good mutation potion. Or some changes in Xom's muation frequency/Jiuva altar accessability.

[Psieye]

It is absolutely fine to have "soft" DS mutations, like now. Powered by Pain/Death or Horns, Hooves etc. make excellent flavour, even if they change gameplay only a little bit.

For deeper changes of the game plan it would suffice to have just a few drastic DS mutations. We can use this space to mention ideas freely. Most likely, nothing will come of it, but just maybe we'll produce a keeper, and we will never know if we don't try.

Now that we have this conclusion on the 'why' side of the issue, it's open season for the 'how' side - i.e. time for idea brainstorm spam.

Stating also those ideas in the OP:
- You can no longer eat any food, you instead get nutrition by killing things (be it living, demonic, holy and maybe even undead).
- You can no longer eat any food, you instead get nutrition by eating magic items (wand charges, pluses on equipment, misc. items).
- You no longer naturally regenerate mp, you must consume magic items to reload it (excellent for 'sustained burst damage' but you'd normally melee threats).
- Sixfirhy mode! You get X moves at super fast speed then have a long delay where you stand still doing nothing. NOT a passive feature - you must activate it and it will give you Y cycles of Sixfirhy-ness.
- Fiend form! For a maxHP + maxMP price, you can temporarily assume the form of a Fiend. Complete with torment immunity and ability to cast torment.
- Self-flamethrower, for use with ignite blood: you spend some HP to shoot a spray of your blood that immediately ignites. This effectively means you have a "Bolt of Conjure Flame" up to say, range 3: every tile that the 'bolt' travels through gets a flame cloud.
- Self-spine shooter, for use with spiny: you spend some HP to shoot one of your body spikes at the target. In essence, casting Iron Shot for HP but only if you aren't wearing any body armour. Maybe make the "no body armour" part mandatory if you have this mutation, and give innate +AC or +maxHP in exchange.
- Drain magic! Target spellcaster is hit with an anti-magic attack and you get to reload some MP. HD resisted. Now you too can be like a Neqoxec and feed on brains!
- Distortion overmode! Activate to get the following bundle of effects: distortion-branded FISTS (i.e. useless if you have a weapon), -cTele, blinkitis, auto-recasting lesser-Disjunction (because normally a blink cancels Disjunction early). 'Lesser' because otherwise there'd be no point in having those distortion fists as nothing would stay in melee range long.
- Breathe Mutagen! You breathe polymorph clouds.

And then a longer one: Adaptive Temperature (partially inspired by Lava Orc).
* No, you cannot enter lava.
* You have a temperature gauge that moves up or down depending on how much fire/cold damage you took.
* Higher notches on the temperature gauge act like multiple, innate rings of fire/ice. For example, at maximum hot temperature you get rF+++, rC---, x3 enchancers to fire magic, x3 dampeners to ice magic.
* Optional: you cannot USE your scrolls/potions at maximum hot/cold temperature. You do NOT DESTROY your own consumables but you are suppressed from using them until your temperature gets less intense.
* The temperature gauge rapidly falls back to neutral so you'll only have the effects of extreme temperature for the battle which induced that temperature change.

[shock]

A quick brainstorm for more radical DS mutations:
- other ways to trade item slots for greater benefits, e.g. permanent blade hands
- bonuses in water, lava, or various clouds
- conditional mobility, e.g. short-range (2 space) cblink triggered from breath timer, high tension, and/or high damage dealt/received
- skew defenses from melee to ranged or vice versa, e.g. take 25% less melee damage but double from range
- trade-off between weapon damage and attack speed or something that encourages either faster or slower weapon types
- ability to wield two-handed weapons as one-handed at some cost
- improved spell power at the cost of flexibility, e.g. drastically less spell slots or decreased aptitudes
- new MP recharge mechanic, e.g. doesn't recharge over time but is gained by dealing damage or exploring
- leave a trail of flames like fire elementals, but you're not immune
- encourage fighting when surrounded by enemies, e.g. scaling temporary hp/mp bonus by number of adjacent/nearby enemies
- improved evocation power with at the cost of max MP
- speed and/or damage bonus on consecutive melee hits at the cost of accuracy
- something that cares about which direction you're facing (based on previous action), e.g. stronger defense in front but a weak spot behind
- decreased accuracy for both player and monsters
- chance to proc some interesting spell or effect on melee hits, e.g. inner flame, slow, knockback, or petrify

[Psieye]

- conditional mobility, e.g. short-range (2 space) cblink triggered from breath timer, high tension, and/or high damage dealt/received

Nah, much more fun if it's an uncontrollable (even with cTele!) blink whenever you get hit hard. Suddenly, Stasis becomes super-valuable!

[red_kangaroo]

There are no bug-like mutations at all, so I think it could be nice to have some for DS. It's not radical, but could be nice.

Pincers - no advanced item manipulation, much higher meele attack
Mandibles - bite attack and you eat faster
Compound eyes - blurry 1, LOS +X (where X is tier)
Chitinous shell - +AC, tier 3 means no armor

And other body mutations:
Third eye - you get mesmerize ability
Mind shield - ever mind-affecting status wears off much faster
Bone comb - headbutt attack
Eyestalks - +LOS, petrifying/paralysing gaze ability
Tongue - auxiliary attack with reaching
Exposed brain - magic boost, but no head armor
Serpent hair - no head armor and auxiliary poisonous bite attack
Thick tail - auxiliary attack
Prehensive tail - one more ring slot, you can wield one more item, but without dvanced item manipulation (e.g. you can wield sword and shield in hands and arrows for sticks to snakes with tail)
Additional arms - well, four-armed character would be cool
Tentacle - it was mentioned above and I like it
Second head - what to say more?
Stump - you can wield only one item
Iron skin - rElec, +AC and slow movement
Devolution - 30% - good mutation, 50% + bad mutation, 20% - mutation
Abdominal maw - I. "You have a hideous scar on your stomach."
II. small maw on your stomach, so without armor, you can have another bite attack (so if you have also fangs, you can bute twice)
III. extremly strong bite attack, faster eating, can combine with other mouth mutations (as tongue, poisonous bite etc.)
Acidic blood - when critically hit, you splash your surroundings with acid
Explosive flesh - very bad mutation, when hit by fire attack, you can explode, creating 3x3 fire clouds and damaging yourself
Mutagenic touch - probably casts polymorph other with every unarmed attack

[Kintak]

As a long-time DS fan (first-time caller, hah), I'd love it if DS mutations were a bit more dramatic. Right now DS gets some interesting and useful mutations, but the majority of them are just small bonuses that don't heavily influence how a DS character is played. I'd really like it if every DS character had a game-changing mutation that kicks in fairly early ala the monstrous mutation. It would be like draconians except more exciting.

I'll throw my own hat into the ring with a couple (probably poorly balanced) suggestions:
Soulstealer - "You steal the energies from others for your own use."
Gains an ability to absorb the life force from a weakened monster (not plant or construct) or non-rotten corpse for sustenance but can no longer eat food normally. Every so often, passively enchants items in their inventory (not necessarily ones worn) or recharges wands. Passive enchants suffer from reduced effectiveness on already enchanted equipment the same as scrolls do.

Demonic Batspawn - "There is featureless flesh where your eyes used to be."
Through echolocation, the demonspawn has no issue with traversing the dungeon, and even gets a bonus to LOS. They can smell if a potion is good, neutral, or bad (but not what it specifically is until they try one), and have an innate sense for magic, allowing them to identify any equipment they come across, and at mid-level giving them an ability to remove curses at will. However, they cannot use any scrolls, nor can they identify a monster without first killing one. Luckily magic books and manuals are (magically) written in braille.

Those were fun to brainstorm.

[sanka]

Thinking a little while reading trough the proposals I start to feel that coming up with enough game changing mutaions are hard, so unlikely to lead anywhere soon.

Personaly I like the "move nightstalker to halflings" idea the best (of course severly nerfing aptitudes). I would like both halflings and demonspawn much more than now - I could play with a game changing mutation when I feel so, I can play DS without the annoyance that random nightstalker mutation would annoy me, and nightstalker (which is a very powerful mutation) can be balanced much much better (we can make new halflings as fragile as we wish).

[dpeg]

sanka: I don't think so! There should be enough good content if we put our minds to it.

I'll list some ideas from the thread that I think have potential. My criteria for selection were:

• The negative part of the mutation should be noticeable but not shoe-horn the character.
• No active abilities. This is for similar reasons as with weapon moves: better flow and better flavour. (It is very hard to get active powers right: think of old Elves' Glamour or the origin Zin Recite ability).
• Avoiding tension. While Demonic Guardian makes use of tension (and is one of my favourite DS mutations), I am not sure if tension is up to snuff for more elaborate "Danger!" triggering.
• No "enemies might flee/get confused/etc." This is a bit better than Glamour if the power is passive but still more a gimmick than the style-changer we want here.
• No increased LOS. Player and monster LOS has to be symmetric and for console reasons alone LOS of radius 8 is the limit.

The DS mutations:

• slow movement, robustness, MP boost (=robustness for MP, beyond cap), AC boost. (sanka)
• Tentacle mutation: One tentacle = no body armour restriction, one additional ring slot. Two tentacles = no heavy body armour, two additional ring slots. Three tentacles = very light body armour only (EVP<2), three additional ring slots. (twelve)
• Eldritch shield: Reduced HP, but increased MP and innate guardian spirit. (Tiber)
• Wings: fragile, deformed body but flying and quick. (dpeg)
• Demonic screams: shoutitis (as the mutation) with sonic damage (like the Singing Sword). You can always scream yourself with 'tt' for sonic damage. (dpeg)
• Soulstealer: "You steal the energies from others for your own use." Absorb life force from nearby weakened monster (monster HP < 20%, sudden death if it triggers) or an adjacent non-rotten corpse for sustenance; reduced (levels 1, 2) or no (level 3) nutrition from all food. Absorbing life force has a chance to trigger Enchant Weapon/Armour or Recharging (random wand/rod) effect. (kintak)
• Improved spell power at the cost of flexibility, e.g. drastically less spell slots. A simple alternative: Wild magic. (shock)
• MP doesn't recharge over time but is gained by dealing damage or exploring
• Damage taken from an adjacent enemy is split evenly between you and all other adjacent enemies. (inspired by shock, shamelessly copied from Brogue)
• Third eye: when having nostile monsters of the same genus in LOS (e.g. elf, orc, demon-per-number, one of them will be 'eyed' and fight its brethren. (inspired by red kangaroo)
• You no longer naturally regenerate mp, you must consume magic items (books, wands, rods) to reload it; can overload MP (but with diminishing returns, so no point in consuming all books before the battle). (psieye)
• Demonic gastrointestinal passage: innate very high regeneration (no nutrition cost) but innability to eat chunks -- only permafood. (dpeg)

This list is completely subjective, of course, but I think it gets across that there are interesting ideas. Hopefully I got the contributions correct.

[sanka]

Thank you for the collection, you have convinced me that maybe that could work. There are some good candidates there!

Let's try putting together a new mutation system. My first attempt would be the following:

1. One scale type mutation, from the current list. (maybe some of them should be adjusted for better balance, but that's entirely a separate thing). I think monstorous DS simply should get a scale type facet also.
2. One body slot mutation (unless monstrous, when 3)
3. Two "bonuse-like" mutation. These will be choosed randomly from the good current level 2 and level 3 facets. The boring ones (like rN+++) can be dropped. Otherwise I see no reason to distuinguish level 2 and level 3.
4. One "game changing" or "form" mutation. I think this should be the last one, and the first level should be received between somewhere level 7 and level 12. Nightstalker (and maybe monstorous) should move into this list, as well as the well-working new candidates.

[red_kangaroo]

Negasphere – „You feel strange aversion to mystic forces.“
The first tier gives you MR boost. With the second you gain antimagic for your fists, but with all its drawbacks. And finally, with the third tier you gain the suppression aura.

[Fergy]

Negasphere – „You feel strange aversion to mystic forces.“
The first tier gives you MR boost. With the second you gain antimagic for your fists, but with all its drawbacks. And finally, with the third tier you gain the suppression aura.

Maybe have tier 3: Grants a chance of casting silence every time you attack.

[Petro]

Negasphere – „You feel strange aversion to mystic forces.“
The first tier gives you MR boost. With the second you gain antimagic for your fists, but with all its drawbacks. And finally, with the third tier you gain the suppression aura.

Mmmmm, losing 30% of your max mana permanently seems like verging on pigeonholing to me, but I've always been curmudgeonly about my DS. I know that would be frustrating as hell if I were a caster.

More generally can we talk about the DSs aptitude spread? One thing I always found frustrating about DS is that they have a core mechanic that rewards flexibility and a stat block that punishes it. When you have -1s across the board on top of some of the worst leveling in the game and some other trivial penalties (silver, holy egos, no good gods, ect) you really had to focus to survive early on. This never sat well with me but made mechanical sense when DS mutation were almost always powerful flat bonuses. Now that we're looking for even trade offs can we do away with the DSs awful stat block once and for all?

[Psieye]

I read that as "I like this cool race but I'm used to playing OP races only. I want aptitudes like a DE, Mi or Sp."

[cjo]

I love playing DS because I find the random mutations hugely entertaining. I love the ideas in this thread--some would need adjustment in order to avoid being too extreme, but there's a lot of great suggestions!

You no longer naturally regenerate mp, you must consume magic items (books, wands, rods) to reload it; can overload MP (but with diminishing returns, so no point in consuming all books before the battle). (psieye)

This one seems too extreme as it stands, but how about an activated ability to consume magical items for mana in exchange for a lowered mana cap? It could add a twist to resource management without shutting down spell casting quite so strongly.

More generally can we talk about the DSs aptitude spread? One thing I always found frustrating about DS is that they have a core mechanic that rewards flexibility and a stat block that punishes it. When you have -1s across the board on top of some of the worst leveling in the game and some other trivial penalties (silver, holy egos, no good gods, ect) you really had to focus to survive early on. This never sat well with me but made mechanical sense when DS mutation were almost always powerful flat bonuses. Now that we're looking for even trade offs can we do away with the DSs awful stat block once and for all?

I don't think the point is to aim for "flat" mutations. Or at least, that's not the aspect that appeals to me! I think the goal is "good if you play to it, but with a drawback too." We already have some like that. Thin skeletal structure is a great example: +2 dex and + stealth, but -1 str.

As far as power, I think DS sometimes have it rough in the early-mid game depending on the luck of the draw. Compare them to another slow-leveling generalist race: draconics. Draconics have faster leveling (140 vs 150), slightly better hp and aptitudes, and a nice starting AC. They get another boost at L7, and continued AC improvements. DS don't start quite as strong, but they get more mutations over the course of the game, usually including some really good ones. When things turn around depends on what mutations kick in at which level. In the long run, they tend to be better off than draconics. And take all this with a grain of salt, since I'm not actually a great player.

[Petro]

I don't have any inherent problem with playing low aptitude characters. Hell right now I'm running a troll transmuter and he's getting it done. I can even accept DS as a challenge class, but if the stated goal is to make people adapt to mutations as they come then the current aptitudes don't make a lot of sense. They're solidly -1, and where they aren't its (excluding necromancy) in skills that aren't particularly beneficial early game. It's something you can power through and becomes trivial with time, but in the early game where DS are at their most vulnerable it encourages them to front load all their XP into one or two core skills to get their weapons/spells working reliably. Mechanically balanced? Yes. Fair? Probably. Working as intended? I would say not.

[galehar]

By definition, adapting isn't something that happens in the early game. You have to be somewhat developed in a direction for that. Also -1 apt isn't that bad.

[BlackSheep]

Also, flat aptitudes are the best possible indicator of adaptability. The actual values don't matter. Rather, the relative values are what steer you one way or another.

[rebthor]

Perhaps this will help. Here are the average aptitudes for every skill (mature draconians were not included):
<snip>
Not so much "isn't that bad" as "extremely close to average." Also, Ds specifically has 0 Stealth/Fighting/Conj/Hex/Sum/Pois, +1 Evocations/Necromancy, and +3 Invocations, so...

Clearly the devteam is pushing us all to be stealthy god-fearing ninjas. Look at that stealth aptitude. It dwarfs all other skills except praying to the gods!

[rebthor]

I realize in rereading my comment that the sarcasm might not have been fully apparent. Anyhow you make a good point!

[BlackSheep]

I can't imagine why.

[cjo]

Thank you for the collection, you have convinced me that maybe that could work. There are some good candidates there!

Let's try putting together a new mutation system. My first attempt would be the following:

1. One scale type mutation, from the current list. (maybe some of them should be adjusted for better balance, but that's entirely a separate thing). I think monstorous DS simply should get a scale type facet also.
2. One body slot mutation (unless monstrous, when 3)
3. Two "bonuse-like" mutation. These will be choosed randomly from the good current level 2 and level 3 facets. The boring ones (like rN+++) can be dropped. Otherwise I see no reason to distuinguish level 2 and level 3.
4. One "game changing" or "form" mutation. I think this should be the last one, and the first level should be received between somewhere level 7 and level 12. Nightstalker (and maybe monstorous) should move into this list, as well as the well-working new candidates.

I'm really excited about the potential here. I've been playing around with the code, and I know I can add at least a simple DS mutation. I'm working on understanding more complex ones. Is this something where the devs would consider a contribution from a non-dev? And if so, what's the best way to get some guidance once I get farther along? Each mutation is going to need review from someone who understands game balance.

Also, I will probably pick candidates partly based on my own skill level. There's some neat ideas for alternate food clocks that I just don't want to tackle, for example. Ignoring the code, food clock game balance is not something I want to deal with (even if someone more experienced helps me, I'd rather just leave it alone.)

[o_O]

*mutation list*

These all sound like alot of fun actually. They would all be very powerful for a character willing to adapt to them, but would change the game completely for that DS.

[dpeg]

cjo: Great news! Would you do me the favour and try to establish contact with Cryptic? He's a crawl dev interested in DS, and just yesterday mentioned something about them. He is most easily reached on ##crawl-dev. Just send him and/or me a message (!tell Cryptic).

I would also be very happy if you could get some other ##crawl-dev regulars have a look onto your plans, most notably elliptic. My point is not to slow you down -- the opposite, rather! As I see it, there's so much potential here, like you say, that it'd be a shame if nothing came out of it for lack of communication. If you want, you can also contact me via email, and I set up a crawl-ref-discuss email with the topics.