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How is it even possible to win a Mummy Chaos Knight?

I'm not the best player, but I have won with a mummy before. I understand that a MuCK is supposed to be a really challenging build, where sometimes you die unfairly. But with trying to play them a little, I have absolutely no idea how it is even possible to win them. My last death was the most disappointing:

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.14-a0-956-g2c70c21 (console) character file. 471 sanka the Ducker (level 5, -4/39 HPs) Began as a Mummy Chaos Knight on Nov 20, 2013. Was a Plaything of Xom. Incinerated by the severe capriciousness of Xom (6 damage) ... on Level 4 of the Dungeon. The game lasted 00:10:04 (3290 turns). sanka the Ducker (Mummy Chaos Knight) Turns: 3290, Time: 00:10:04 HP -4/39 AC 11 Str 15 XL: 5 Next: 96% MP 5/5 EV 13 Int 15 God: Xom Gold 210 SH 0 Dex 11 Spells: 0 memorised, 4 levels left Res.Fire : x . . See Invis. : . a - +4,+2 dwarf flail (venom) Res.Cold : + . . Warding : . t - +2 leather armour Life Prot.: + + + Conserve : . (no shield) Res.Poison: + Res.Corr. : . u - +2 visored helmet {Int+3} Res.Elec. : . Clarity : . n - +0 cloak Sust.Abil.: . . Spirit.Shd : . p - +1 pair of gauntlets Res.Mut. : . Stasis : . (no boots) Res.Rott. : + Flight : . j - amulet of faith {!P} Saprovore : . . . (no ring) m - ring of wizardry @: liquid flames, glowing, slightly resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely unstealthy A: no food or potions, fire vulnerability, restore body, cold resistance 1, life protection 3, poison resistance, torment resistance, unbreathing a: Renounce Religion You were on level 4 of the Dungeon. You worshipped Xom. You were a special plaything of Xom. You were not hungry. You visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and saw 4 of its levels. You collected 210 gold pieces. Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations You do not eat or drink. Your flesh is vulnerable to fire. Your flesh is cold resistant. You are immune to negative energy. Your system is resistant to poisons. You are immune to unholy pain and torment. You can survive without breathing. Skills: - Level 3.0 Fighting - Level 2.4 Polearms - Level 1.5 Armour * Level 5.0 Dodging You had 4 spell levels left. You didn't know any spells. Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (4/16) Temple: D:4-7 Altars: Okawaru Yredelemnul Zin Shops: D:4 ( Inventory: Hand weapons a - a +4,+2 dwarven flail of venom (weapon) b - a +0,+0 spear of chaos v - a +1,+0 dagger of venom x - a -2,+0 quarterstaff Missiles d - 9 poisoned needles i - 12 sling bullets o - 3 javelins (quivered) Armour h - a +1 elven robe of the Archmagi n - a +0 cloak (worn) p - a +1 pair of gauntlets (worn) t - a +2 leather armour (worn) u - a +2 visored helmet of intelligence (worn) Scrolls e - a scroll of amnesia Jewellery j - an amulet of faith (around neck) {!P} m - a ring of wizardry (left hand) q - an uncursed amulet of conservation {unknown} ##.# ........# #.# #........# #o# #........# #<# ......(. #.# .\..8 #.# #..# #.# #?## #.# #.l# #.# ######5## #.# #.....(.# ##'##### #...@...# [.!....######.......# .......'.()##..<....# .......###%.#..?....# .......# ##.'.......# .......# ###.......# .......# ######### .......# ######## You could see an iguana and a friendly ufetubus. Message History f - a scroll of identify Read which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit) Okay, then. Drop what? (_ for help) (? for menu, Esc to quit) You drop a scroll of curse weapon {!r}. Found Ditefoit's Antique Weapon Boutique. You see here 4 tomahawks. There is an open door here. An iguana comes into view. The iguana hisses angrily. Xom giggles. You are covered in liquid flames! You are covered in liquid flames! Found 21 bolts. Drop what? (_ for help) (? for menu, Esc to quit) You drop a scroll of recharging. You are covered in liquid flames! Your scroll of remove curse catches fire! You are covered in liquid flames! * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * You are covered in liquid flames! One of your 2 scrolls of amnesia catches fire! * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * There is an open door here. You are covered in liquid flames! * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * The iguana bites your ufetubus. Your ufetubus barely misses the iguana. You are covered in liquid flames! Your scroll of identify catches fire! You die... Action | 1- 3 | 4- 6 || total -------------------------+-------+-------++------- Melee: Spear | 139 | 76 || 215 Flail | | 45 || 45 Quarterstaff | | 23 || 23 Dagger | | 3 || 3 Throw: Javelin | 3 | || 3 Use: Scroll | | 11 || 11 Stab: Confused | 1 | || 1 Vault maps used: D:1: dpeg_entry_short_road D:2: lemuel_round_altar, nicolae_overflow_hidden_temple, first_bread, minmay_misc_feat_five D:3: lemuel_crystal_altar, okawaru_trees_1, guppyfry_early_orc_mine, uniq_terence D:4: lemuel_round_altar, serial_shops, shop_statue, minmay_vboxes Notes Turn | Place | Note -------------------------------------------------------------- 0 | D:1 | sanka, the Mummy Chaos Knight, began the quest for the Orb. 0 | D:1 | Reached XP level 1. HP: 16/16 MP: 1/1 15 | D:1 | Reached skill level 1 in Dodging 262 | D:1 | Reached XP level 2. HP: 22/22 MP: 2/2 740 | D:1 | Reached skill level 2 in Dodging 1058 | D:2 | XOM: harmless Ice miscast 1152 | D:2 | XOM: noise 1157 | D:2 | Reached XP level 3. HP: 26/28 MP: 3/3 1202 | D:2 | XOM: harmless Summ miscast 1327 | D:2 | XOM: 7-stop teleportation journey 1438 | D:2 | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin. 1822 | D:3 | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul. 1858 | D:3 | Reached skill level 3 in Dodging 1919 | D:3 | XOM: confuse monster(s) 1936 | D:3 | Reached XP level 4. HP: 34/34 MP: 4/4 1960 | D:3 | Noticed Terence 2009 | D:3 | XOM: potion effect (brilliance) 2014 | D:3 | Killed Terence 2120 | D:3 | XOM: god gift: scroll labeled PICYTACVIARO 2209 | D:3 | Found an iron altar of Okawaru. 2258 | D:3 | XOM: god gift: runed visored helmet {god gift} 2281 | D:3 | Reached skill level 4 in Dodging 2286 | D:3 | Reached XP level 5. HP: 27/39 MP: 5/5 2416 | D:3 | XOM: summons 4 friendly demons 2845 | D:4 | XOM: scenery: 2 doors open 2914 | D:4 | Noticed an orc warrior 3032 | D:4 | XOM: enchant monster (bad) 3036 | D:4 | XOM: enchant monster (bad) 3207 | D:4 | XOM: 2-stop teleportation journey 3212 | D:4 | XOM: summons friendly ufetubus 3274 | D:4 | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging 3282 | D:4 | Found Ditefoit's Antique Weapon Boutique. 3285 | D:4 | XOM: severe Fire miscast 3288 | D:4 | HP: 7/39 [burnt (7)] 3289 | D:4 | HP: 2/39 [burnt (3)] 3290 | D:4 | Incinerated by the severe capriciousness of Xom Vanquished Creatures A hound (D:4) An orc priest (D:3) 2 worker ants Terence (D:3) 5 adders 2 worms (D:3) 3 giant geckos An ooze (D:1) 7 orcs (D:3) 9 bats 4 giant cockroaches 11 goblins 5 hobgoblins 3 jackals (D:2) 4 kobolds 2 quokkas (D:3) 2 ball pythons 3 giant newts 8 rats 74 creatures vanquished. Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills) 2 adders (D:3) 2 creatures vanquished. Grand Total: 76 creatures vanquished

Xom decided to put a sticky flame on me. I died from full HP.

Winning MuCK without leaving Xom tends to get consistently harder (even moreso than other combos, that is) as the developers keep removing ways to deal with confusion, such as rods. Furthermore Xom was "overhauled" a few versions ago and now confuses you with monsters around about 20 times as often as before. I would be very surprised if someone managed to win MuCK of Xom in 0.13+ without using obsidian axe or getting very, very lucky with decks.

2845 | D:4

Well there's your problem. Look at how the last MuCK win went:

177387 | D:4

It sometimes being unfair is an understatement. Pretty much everything about muck is unfair or bad in some way. Probably you shouldn't wear faith, at least.

pubby wrote:
2845 | D:4

Well there's your problem. Look at how the last MuCK win went:
177387 | D:4

I do not think that getting sticky flame on D1 instead of D4 would help.

If you wanna have a "reasonable" chance as a mummy of xom I'd suggest not starting with xom but instead taking xom at it's first altar. Mummy wizard of xom seemed to be the least horrible one when i was trying.

If you insist on starting as mummy of xom and actually care about trying to win, you'll need to be boring and try to lure as few enemies at a time to as safe a killing spot as possible so when the inevitable 20-30 turn un-curable confusion happens you have the greatest chance of survival.

edit:

duvessa wrote:...removing ways to deal with confusion, such as rods...

How can/could you remove confusion with a rod?

I have tried to play really really safe for some time. And I have died anyway. For example, the last one I cited, it has nothing to do with safe play, Xom simply decided to kill me from full hp in a relatively safe spot. Also "luring" monsters one-by-one works for every character for me except chaos knights. Xom always sends me on a teleport trip that is finished next to Sigmund. Or simply summon a sun demon next to my mummy when I'm resting. There are so many many many ways (s)he can kill me without any help on my part.

sanka wrote:I have tried to play really really safe for some time. And I have died anyway. For example, the last one I cited, it has nothing to do with safe play, Xom simply decided to kill me from full hp in a relatively safe spot. Also "luring" monsters one-by-one works for every character for me except chaos knights. Xom always sends me on a teleport trip that is finished next to Sigmund. Or simply summon a sun demon next to my mummy when I'm resting. There are so many many many ways (s)he can kill me without any help on my part.

The trick is to always be in good standings by only using chaos weapons. Do that and you don't have to worry as much about bad stuff.

Tiktacy wrote:
sanka wrote:I have tried to play really really safe for some time. And I have died anyway. For example, the last one I cited, it has nothing to do with safe play, Xom simply decided to kill me from full hp in a relatively safe spot. Also "luring" monsters one-by-one works for every character for me except chaos knights. Xom always sends me on a teleport trip that is finished next to Sigmund. Or simply summon a sun demon next to my mummy when I'm resting. There are so many many many ways (s)he can kill me without any help on my part.

The trick is to always be in good standings by only using chaos weapons.

You really shouldn't.

Mankeli wrote:
Tiktacy wrote:
sanka wrote:I have tried to play really really safe for some time. And I have died anyway. For example, the last one I cited, it has nothing to do with safe play, Xom simply decided to kill me from full hp in a relatively safe spot. Also "luring" monsters one-by-one works for every character for me except chaos knights. Xom always sends me on a teleport trip that is finished next to Sigmund. Or simply summon a sun demon next to my mummy when I'm resting. There are so many many many ways (s)he can kill me without any help on my part.

The trick is to always be in good standings by only using chaos weapons.

You really shouldn't.

Really? That's how I always play my CK's. Having tier 3 demons on your side in tough fights during early game is always nice.

I guess it's worth mentioning that using chaos weapons against powerful enemies is a bad idea.

You do know that being on XOM's good side isn't really all that different from being on XOM's bad side, right?

EDIT: Well the above is not strictly true because there is a difference. A better way of putting it is that XOM's interest may be greater if you goof around with a chaos weapon, but his attitude won't be.

Baldu2 wrote:How can/could you remove confusion with a rod?

You used to be able to use rod spells to not die while confused. Now you can't.

duvessa wrote:
Baldu2 wrote:How can/could you remove confusion with a rod?
You used to be able to use rod spells to not die while confused. Now you can't.

Thanks for info, never knew that thing.

sanka wrote:I have tried to play really really safe for some time. And I have died anyway.

Note that your chances of winning a mummy chaos knight is probably closer to 0% then 1%. I'm trying to help get as far away from 0% win chance but you have to realize you will still die a lot on xom mummy even with perfect play. I've got pretty far with xom mummies and won many not mummies of xom so have some experience, and what that experience is telling me is that if i want to win with xom is not start with xom but take it at altar.

Still, since you trying to make work a mummy chaos knight, the 3 best options are probably:
- press 5 on starting spot until you have an item with fire protection and a rod
- play ultra slowly, safest possible way from turn 1
- play fast and furious until you get strong, then play safe

As long as you realize you will die in an unfair way 99% of the time i guess you can still have fun with your mummy of xom.

For more tips the better to help are probably the blue posters crate mikee cerebovsquire and the grey poster minmay, these guys are probably the most skilled in general and specifically at this super unfair combo, but i think only the first 2 post anymore.

Yeah, minmay doesn't post anymore. Pretty sad, he gave good advice, and I hear he has a really big penis.

For the record, trying to scum Xom gifts almost certainly increases your chances of dying in that game overall. The most recent MuCK win was extremely lucky. Most accounts take way more tries. You are probably best off just playing normally.

duvessa wrote:Yeah, minmay doesn't post anymore. Pretty sad, he gave good advice, and I hear he has a really big penis.

For the record, trying to scum Xom gifts almost certainly increases your chances of dying in that game overall. The most recent MuCK win was extremely lucky. Most accounts take way more tries. You are probably best off just playing normally.

My sides hurt from laughing so hard. :lol:

Anyway, in other words, there is a reason it's called "Muck".

For the record, trying to scum Xom gifts almost certainly increases your chances of dying in that game overall. The most recent MuCK win was extremely lucky. Most accounts take way more tries. You are probably best off just playing normally.

When I tried scumming it was much easier than normal . I won on the first try:

Code:: 1053950 pubby the Slayer (level 26, 222/222 (229) HPs) Began as a Mummy Chaos Knight on Nov 22, 2013. Was a Favourite Plaything of Xom. Escaped with the Orb ... and 4 runes! The game lasted 08:40:55 (562885 turns).

And this was after 134 non-scumming MuCK deaths.

xomscumming, to me, is like playing the lottery - sometimes you do in fact win.

muck essentially has two types of challenges to it. The first type is associated with xom. Much more than normally in a game, you need to be aware of what can happen at given times and be as well prepared for it as possible. This can involve something as simple as wearing stasis when you are afraid of being teleported (e.g., in a branch end) and knowing when to remove it, carrying certain items, whatever. I actually consider this kind of bad because it's so spoilery - do you know what every xom effect is? And in any case, the depth of knowledge and preparation required to deal with this even close to consistently is immense.

The second challenge is just that even if you didn't have xom, your character is absolutely terrible. It used to have a rather good starting weapon, but now it has one that is arguably worse than your fists. It has a decent leather armour. That's it. It has every problem that a mummy has with no early game power and no obvious path to follow to gain in power. This is probably part of why xomscumming is so attractive - the rare occasions when you get a d:1 rod or some randart scimitar or w/e can give you that path. Of course, playing regularly also gives you that path if you remain patient and flexible.

mikee wrote: I actually consider this kind of bad because it's so spoilery - do you know what every xom effect is? And in any case, the depth of knowledge and preparation required to deal with this even close to consistently is immense.

Yeah, how are noobs suppose to know that xom confusion does not respect clarity, for instance?

I just lost a MuCK in Vaults:4. Considered retreating upstairs with 2 yaktaurs next to me because there were other nasties outside the room. No problem, my mummy still hast plenty of HP and AC 39 takes care of yaktaurs in melee. Then, Xom confusion hits right on the stairs, I believe. Managed to go upstairs however but that didn't save my mummy.

I was stupid enough to try to move at some point instead of fiving but I think the the most important piece of the puzzle came when Xom polymorphed a yaktaur into a dire elephant who could get through my 39 AC. The duration of the confusion was pretty insane BTW:

56491 | Vaults:4 | XOM: confusion
56512 | Vaults:3 | XOM: potion effect (agility)
56513 | Vaults:3 | XOM: polymorph yaktaur captain -> dire elephant
56516 | Vaults:3 | XOM: inner flame monster(s)
56532 | Vaults:3 | HP: 7/141 [yaktaur/ bolt of frost[a vault warden] (8)]
56533 | Vaults:3 | HP: 1/141 [dire elephant (7)]
56534 | Vaults:3 | Slain by a dire elephant

I am fairly certain the confusion ended 1-5 turns before my character perished so that's about 40 turns worth of confusion! Should the cap for confusion be maybe a bit lower maybe, please? And what is the cap anyways, is there one, or is it based on probabilites or something?

Mankeli wrote:Yeah, how are noobs suppose to know that xom confusion does not respect clarity, for instance?

Clarity is actually my preferred amulet on muck because it actually does block all of the confusion miscast effects. But yes, xom confusion itself is pretty BS. Instead of a 'food clock' you have a 'confusion clock'! (sorry)

Mankeli wrote:And what is the cap anyways, is there one, or is it based on probabilites or something?

Xom player confusion is up to 100 turns. Specifically, it's 1d|piety-100| turns.

mikee wrote:
Mankeli wrote:Yeah, how are noobs suppose to know that xom confusion does not respect clarity, for instance?

Clarity is actually my preferred amulet on muck because it actually does block all of the confusion miscast effects. But yes, xom confusion itself is pretty BS. Instead of a 'food clock' you have a 'confusion clock'! (sorry)

Yep, I was wearing clarity on this very character (and was aware of the limitations probably thanks to my lone Xom CK win with an ogre).

Anyways, I try to look at the bright side on my character's demise: now the other challenging character I got going, FoFi of Chei who has a self-imposed "no spells" conduct on top of everything, seems like a walk in the park

.

duvessa wrote:player confusion is up to 100 turns.

LOL!

Mankeli wrote:
duvessa wrote:player confusion is up to 100 turns.

LOL!

Xom roars with laughter!

I don't get why there is module operation. Can Xom confuse player if piety is more than 100 or even close to 200? I thought favorite teddy bear is not subject to bad effects...

Sandman25 wrote:I don't get why there is module operation.

...there isn't?

Sandman25 wrote:Can Xom confuse player if piety is more than 100 or even close to 200? I thought favorite teddy bear is not subject to bad effects...

If my interpretation of the code is correct and the effect didn't come from the Xom card or something: if Xom is not bored, tension is at least 10, and you are all the way at 200 piety, then you cannot get a bad Xom act. It is rather difficult to fulfill even one of these conditions at all times, let alone all three.

To be honest, I wouldn't even worry about the max duration of a single Xomfusion. Xom is quite happy to chain confuse you, so the actual amount of time you spend confused is practically unlimited.

After getting some muckin' done I am very sad to announce you will soon be unable to aim phials and lamps while confused since gammafunk (who may very well be satan himself) noticed someone having fun and immediately put an end to it.

well yeah see what I meant

After doing some mucking of my own, I've found my most consistent strategy is to choose short swords and train to be a stabbed by focusing stealth.

Surprisingly, chaos brand actually assists in stabbing, regularly confusing, petrifying, and paralyzingly enemies and giving you good stabbing opportunities. Also, using the chaos branded short sword often seems to keep xom happy for the most part, he hardly ever did anything bad.

Probably the highlight of my games was running into a hill giant by pure accident and saying "fuck it" then banishing him to the abyss on the first hit and gaining 4 or 5 levels.

Thoughts?

https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commi ... e303815c9d
https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commi ... bc74d8de0b

I have tried to wait on the first level. The result:

Code:: sanka the Skirmisher (level 2, -2/22 HPs) Began as a Mummy Chaos Knight on Nov 25, 2013. Was a Plaything of Xom. Killed by the capriciousness of Xom (24 damage) ... on Level 1 of the Dungeon.

Xom killing you from full HP is really really annoying...

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