Hydras make me panic

[sxoz]

Hydras keep killing me. I've gotten to the point where I just want to run away from them and leave them alone, but they usually catch up and block off a stairwell. I actually managed to kill one with this last HEAE, using Mephitic Cloud and Throw Icicle, but then I went around a corner, saw another, and as I was backing away, got trapped by a jackal, AND suddenly became starving, with no defensive spells up. Obviously I should have eaten something sooner. Anyway, I have this pattern when I actually make it to the Lair, feel like I'm doing really well, and then get gibbed by a hydra (or my own stupidity).

So: how do you deal with Hydras? I mostly play casters because my melee characters don't usually last very long, haven't gotten my head around the melee play style yet, so I guess I'm looking more for caster advice. One hit from a Hydra usually does me in, even with a buckler and Ozo's Armour. I usually try to have Speed up, too, but that doesn't always save me. I think I panic and start running into other packs of critters, just making things worse. I'm sure there are much, much worse things awaiting me further down, but right now these guys seem to be a big stumbling block.

I wasn't sure whether to post this here or in the YASD forum, but I'm more looking for generic Hydra advice rather than specific morgue related advice.

[XuaXua]

Flaming swords, summons, arrows and running away a lot work for me.

[Jk]

If you have any melee ability, a bladed weapon of flaming will cut off heads as you fight the hydra, so that 6-headed one quickly becomes 5-headed, then 4-headed, then 3-headed, then a joke to defeat. That's probably the best way to turn hydras from dangerous to mundane, as long as you can survive a few rounds in close combat.

If you're a spellcaster, you want to disrupt its ability to close on you (Mephitic Cloud won't work because they are poison immune, so try Ensorcelled Hibernation, Confuse, and spells like that), and then nuke it with your most powerful attacks. You can also summon helpers to kill it, or just to block its pursuit to get distance, nuke again, then repeat when it closes.

[KoboldLord]

Don't wander around with a caster while hungry. Your permafood is a resource; use it. Also, make sure you stay away from water. Hydrae are amphibious, which means they move and attack must more quickly when they are in shallow or deep water.

Generally speaking, as a caster you want to jump straight to your highest-level spell for the first few hydrae. This is a good time to break out choko spells, since a bread ration isn't worth as much as your life. If you don't have a 4th through 6th level attack spell in your starting book, you might want to supplicate for gifts from Vehumet or Sif Muna before you enter hydra territory.

[Tiber]

If you're playing a wizard, or otherwise have the book, they'll walk right into conjured flame, sometimes not even bothering to walk around it. After like 2-3 turns of standing in it they'll be running away.

[TwilightPhoenix]

If you're tough enough, you can kill them with berserking, even if you're using a non-flaming bladed weapon. Breaking out the stronger wands also works wonders, even if you have hardly any evocations.

[Laraso]

I recently got a Draconian Chaos Knight to level 7, and it made me Mottled. I used that sticky fire to kill practically everything, I just spat fire and ran away while my target burned to death. I got to the Lair with it, and I used it to kill 1 1/2 (one got down to half health before one of Mahklebs servants killed it) hydras, though they seemed a little more resistant than other enemies. I was later killed by a herd of Death Yaks.

I'm sure sticky fire wouldn't work too differently as a caster.

[njvack]

If you're tough enough, you can kill them with berserking, even if you're using a non-flaming bladed weapon.

Zerking a hydra with a non-flaming bladed weapon is definitely not a beginner tactic... the line between standing over a dead 12-headed hydra and having a 12-headed hydra stand over a slowed, exhausted you is a depressing one to find.

Wands, wands, wands -- fire, cold, lightning, draining, disintegration will all usually do 'em in. Never, ever polymorph; you're apt to get something more alarming yet.

Remember, also: scrolls of fear are as good an escape from them as scrolls of blinking.

[whelen]

I sometimes polymorph just to see what I'll get. Sure, it's a crapshoot and often doesn't work at all, but I could score and change it into a agate snail or something. Or a dragon, but hey, let's hope for an agate snail.

But seriously, wands wands wands. You'll find more wands later in the game.

[mageykun]

In my opinion, polymorphing a hydra is more dangerous than it's worth.

7. Polymorphing one of these will result in a griffon, giant snail, very ugly thing, giant amoeba or something if you're lucky. If you're unlucky it'll transform into a dragon and you'll probably end up running unless you have the appropriate resistance. If the RNG has it out for you it'll transform into a quicksilver dragon.

Personally, my favourite means of dealing with a hydra is slinging it to death. So long as you're faster than it, and have a stack of 20-30 bullets, preferably frost or flame (rocks not gonna cut it), you can pretty safely plunk them to death (plunk being the sound one hears when a sling bullet connects with a hydra head, of course).

[TwilightPhoenix]

If you're tough enough, you can kill them with berserking, even if you're using a non-flaming bladed weapon.

Zerking a hydra with a non-flaming bladed weapon is definitely not a beginner tactic... the line between standing over a dead 12-headed hydra and having a 12-headed hydra stand over a slowed, exhausted you is a depressing one to find.

Oh, of course it's not a beginner friendly tactic, you definitely have to be familiar with about how long berserk lasts and be able to gauge if, after hitting it a couple of times, if you can kill it to should use your rage to run. But sometimes you just don't have any other options. And if you're a Felid Berserker, it's about your only option without burning piety on every Hydra you meet or letting them chase you round and round.

[FlyingPants]

If you are wearing platemail, it doesn't matter how many heads it has because they don't do any damage.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Lies. A MDFI at level 27 with 27 armor wearing just a +0 Plate Mail was munched fairly quickly by a seven-headed hydra (about 8 turns with 22 AC). Enough damage that it'd be a threat, especially if there were other monsters nearby. Attacking it with a +0/+0 hand axe caused the hydra's kill speed to rapidly increase. At twenty heads (seems to be the max if it's not the unique) it did an average of 50 damage a round and at one point came close to one-shotting the dwarf (Fighting 3, so 156 HP).

The same character in +10 Plate Mail and +2 Boots/Gloves/Helmet/Cloak (49 AC total) was killable by an eight-headed hydra in about twenty turns. The hydra could do as much as 25 damage a round if enough heads landed a bite. A twenty headed hydra could did as much as fifty damage in a round and had an average of somewhere around 20-25 HP per round.

Even with 67 AC, reached with stuff that I don't think is even legit, like a +14 crystal plate mail of protection, a 20-headed hydra was still able to pull off 15-20 damage on the average attack it landed. And an eight-headed hydra could kill not much slower than it did Mr. 49 AC. I could still get higher AC by forcing mutations, figuring out how to get rings and amulets of protection to spawn, and casting Oz's Armor and Stone Skin, but I don't think there's much point to.

I just tested this in Wizard Mode. High AC works great against Hydras, but it doesn't trivialize the damage to the point where they are not a threat. You may argue "but these characters aren't realistic". I'll argue "Yeah, you're not going to have this much AC and armour skill at the point you're fighting hydras. You'll be worse off." And when you do reach this sort of protection, you should have a flaming brand or other way to fight them off before then. Plus I was just testing plate mail vs. Hydra and then carried it into more and more impossible bounds with pure AC vs. hydra. So hopefully someone won't read that post, don a suit of plate mail thinking their immune to hydras and then promptly die to the next one they see.


For trivia, it's interesting to note that you can safely remove a head from a 20-headed hydra without it growing back with ANY edged weapon. However, cutting it again with a non-flame brand will pop it back up to 20 heads.

[asdu]

I actually managed to kill one with this last HEAE, using Mephitic Cloud and Throw Icicle

Just an assumption on my part, but Mephitic Cloud may be your problem. Since Hydras are immune to poison, Mephitic Cloud does nothing to them, so don't waste precious turns casting it. Just blast away, Throw Icicle simply rapes Hydras, as do other conjurations of similar level like Mystic Blast or Bolt of Magma. Hell, I've killed dozens of them with Throw Frost/Fire without too much trouble (may require some blinking though) as long as the Hydra didn't show up too close after turning a corner.

[sxoz]

Wow, thanks for all the responses, everyone! There is so much good info here, this is great! Lots of things I hadn't thought to try.

As for Mephitic Cloud, I had thought they were immune to poison, but cast it anyway out of desperation (and panic). After that, I thought I saw the little '?' on its tile indicating that it was confused, but it's entirely possible that I was only seeing what I wanted to see.

It sounds like, though, I still have a lot to learn about maneuvering, especially via using various spells, scrolls and abilities. I mean I do know things like using Speed, circling pillars and moving into narrow hallways, and using stairs to separate large groups, as well as getting set up for 3x and 4x bounces on Shock and Lightning Bolt. But other than the occasional "crap this is bad, read a teleport scroll and hope I survive" situation, I haven't used scrolls much in combat. I haven't really played with conjured flame or sticky fire. I've used wands but Hydras seem to resist them pretty well, and after a couple hits they're on top of me and eating my liver.

I definitely need to just calm down and take it very slowly, come back to this thread and read all the advice before proceeding, the next time I see a hydra.

[sxoz]

My latest game, I got much much further than I had before, and I managed to kill 7 hydras with no problems, all thanks to the advice here.

[gb]

if nothing else run away until you have a wand of fire/cold/draining. even wands of flame/frost will kill hydras with enough charges. i still haven't figured out how you're supposed to kill things that regenerate like hydras with shock

[ClawlessVictory]

I JUST lost a great character to a seven-headed hydra... man what a bummer...

[tormodpwns]

Makhleb's Greater Servants aren't all that great. Blue and Green Deaths will actually get killed by a 6-8 headed hydra in 2-3 turns.

Once on a HaHu I had about 12 slings skill, a +2,+2 sling with +4 sling bullets of flame and I was able to kill a 6-headed hydra surprisingly quickly in just 8 turns. I also once played a TrPr of Yred and an OOD spawn of a 6-headed hydra on D:8 was no much for my Spectral Warrior, Rotting Hulk, and Flaming Corpse.

[Zicher]

There's always the Poison Arrow Gatling Gun approach .
Then again, this approach does not work solely on hydrae, it works on pretty much everything .

[Shade]

As a caster blink / haste / (fly + swift) + 'blast' works well. You just really want a level 4+ 'blast' spell. Throw flame / frost just won't cut it. If your MP gets low teleport sooner rather than later. If it gets close or you meet one rounding a corner blink immediately.

[Zicher]

You just really want a level 4+ 'blast' spell.

IMB usually does the trick well enough. Icicle is probably even better.

[Eldritch Enquirer]

I've been playing trunk lately with two ongoing characters, and never had too much trouble with Hydras even though I had no shortages of them in the Lair.

Hydras made me feel rewarded for choosing to go with a High Elf Crusader with Bows and Short Blades instead of a Merfolk who went all out with Polearms.

Soften em' up from a distance shooting Freezing Aura boosted +4 or +3 Arrows and then either stab em' with a Freezing short blade or just fire away a common Oka gift which is Dispersal Arrows and keep shooting. Bows/Blades combo even made me slaughter Death Yaks who are also a huge threat in the Lair more effectively because I've managed them even better by shooting them under clouds of Mephitic Cloud while staying the hell away most of the time. Always had Swiftness on of course, I got lucky early on with a Book of Air.

My Deep Elf Ice Elementalist in my work notebook had zero problems with them for all the obvious reasons I don't even have to explain. If you HAVE to go toe to toe with them with no alternatives and have no Swiftness or something similar, you better be packing BALLS of STEEL. (BoS, preferably inflicting blunt/stabbing type of dmg)

[Zicher]

And, if you're missing the BoS, decent AC (20+,easily conceivable with fighter-types by that point), a shield and a flaming weapon work wonders against hydrae.
They can be hard, but not that hard .
To sum it up, by the time you meet a hydra, you have a very good chance to have some equipment to deal with it. If you don't, simply run while you still can. This works pretty much for any monster except Sigmund and Grinder .

[sigfried von murdock]

Spriggans with 18 AC and 45 Evasion have no trouble with these suckers, especially ones with 4,12 speed brand artefact daggers of awesome, and 10,6 quick blades of fire.

Why is it that 6 headed hydras are pretty nasty, but 14 headed hydras seem to kill you twice as fast? Oh crap, must be the heads...

Back on topic: Hydras can easily become that "one" monster that you have to dump your whole arsenal on till it is dead. Blinking, stair hopping, randomly blasting off wands, arrowing it with your +1 arrows and 5/10 random bow of velocity you never use along with your level 2 bows. Summoning meat, hell even a scroll of random uselessness can be a jewel if you mob a hydra with butterflies, makes a wonderful escape for some creatures. If you have to go in melee it doesn't hurt to drink that potion of might right before hand along with any other boosts... Your items no longer help you after you die, so sometimes it is worth it to just gaze into your inventory and spend 5 minutes to formulate some kind of plan that uses everything.

Sucks when you rush in and die and you have like 5 things you could have used to save your butt.

[njvack]

OK, just learned -- spamming Sticks to Snakes at decent power takes down 8-headed hydras with minimal fuss, even with regular arrows. Now, gotta find me some more centaurs before doing Swamp.

[galdon]

Yeah, I am also having Hydra issues; 8 headed one just inside the lair, barely escaped it and ended up with it following me into the main floor. teleported with a wand and found a stair down, fell down a shaft on that floor, tried to climb up only to find a 6 headed one right near the stairs and had to jump back down, ended up taking a far off ceiling escape since these monsters so far down were too strong, only to have it pop me right by that 6 headed hydra again, only now with no paths to flee to. Not sure how to get out of this.

[Grimm]

Death is one possible exit.

[FlyingPants]

Apparently knives don't cut heads off.

[njvack]

Knives, daggers, and quickblades (assuming learndb is right) don't cut off heads.

But: never bring a knife to a hydra fight.

[galehar]

Knives, daggers, and quickblades (assuming learndb is right) don't cut off heads.

But: never bring a knife to a hydra fight.

They deal piercing damage. Only slicing and chopping damage cut off heads.

[Stormfox]

But: never bring a knife to a hydra fight.

Ooh. Enslavement + a ton of spell power (theoretically) means you can bring a hydra to a knife fight, though. Hydra vs. deep elf blademaster, anyone? Sounds like an arena mode test.