Vault 5 and 0.13

[daggaz]

Heh. So I just splatted a solid HoGl, with 59 ac, reams of resistances, an artifact +9 dam executioners axe of chopping etc.. and a HUGE supply of high end consumables.

He fought valiantly, but alas. Ended up in a corridor getting my health chipped down after somehow miraculously surviving some serious hellfire, but at that point, it was too late. My mistake? Entering vault 5 (had cleared D27, swamp, spiders already), and trying to stair dance. The new warden trick of locking the stair cases is HILLARIOUS!!

No but in all seriousness, it sucks. At least on vault 5. Why? Because rather than giving players choices (yo crawl, I heard you like choices so i put some more choice choices in your choices, dawg), it effectively strips them down to only one possible strategy: enter vault 5, read a scroll of magic mapping, teleport to the outer edge and work from there. Anything else is suicidal. Like I said, I fought valiantly, killed several dozen high tier enemies, teleported around, blinked like mad, fogged, feared, hasted, heal heal heal kill kill kill... and it was still just a joke.

I even had a ring of teleport control. The one item I was missing? A scroll of magic mapping.

I prefer the old days, where stair dancing was still an option for the melee orientated characters.

[Sandman25]

I had a similar problem in my last game, Vaults 5 can be cruel.

Do you think it was unavoidable death? If not, I think nothing should be changed.

[duvessa]

I suspect that if there is a developer response to this, it will be to disable teleporting on vaults:5

[sage]

You can also use ?fear.

[daggaz]

Once the stairs shut me in, it was an unavoidable death without pure random luck putting me on the outer ring (which is just the control teleport strategy really), which is of course what I tried to do. Worst part is, I actually got away from the center, waited a while, then tried to get back out (had burned most of my consumables) but got locked again when a warden came into view.

I simply wont even attempt to hit that floor again without 1) scroll of magic mapping 2) control teleport 3) source of teleport. And a LOT more consumables than I would normally bring. Anything else is suicide, its unavoidable death and I was a melee machine.

[daggaz]

You can also use ?fear.

reread the OP, plz

[crate]

You should very nearly always just walk to the outer rim once you get to v:5; this was true before wardens and stair-sealing and is even more true now. Fighting from the rim is dramatically safer than fighting near the stairs, and offers the same benefit of being able to retreat to a known-safe location (enemies are basically never going to randomly wander to the rim unless they generate there). It's also pretty good terrain for fighting from, much better than the openness near the stairs.

(Haste + walking will always get you to the rim ahead of the vault guards unless you worship chei, or if you get unlucky and run toward something dangerous if you are a naga; from there you just make a circuit and the vault guards forget where you are over time since they're out of los)

You can certainly argue that stair-sealing is kind of silly but the stairs being dangerous isn't a new thing.

[sage]

You can also use ?fear.

reread the OP, plz

Earlier. As soon as you go down the stairs. What did you even use your ?fear on? Because it works on guards and convokers ~3/4 of the time, which means ~3/4 of the entry circle running away, which means an easy time walking into a corner of your choice (ideally with haste). That is one non-suicidal option out of many, and you had access to a lot with all of the consumables you burned.

[daggaz]

I always did fine stair dancing, but obviously only on characters that were tough and even then you take a risk. I think a better solution than locking the stairs down, is to allow vault 5 monsters to chase you back up to vault 1.

Get to the edge or die just seems way too 1dimensional.

[Sandman25]

I agree with crate. When you get sealed doors, there is even less sense to stay near stairs. See my game, I had the doors locked AND I got marked while my defenses were much worse, I hasted and just ran, ran, ran without even trying to fight back. Basically I ran into a corner and then to next section, then the situation got somewhat better because I had "only" Shadow Dragon, Tengue Reaver, Cyclops and several Yaktaurs/Ogres with no room to run. Only then I started fighting and after killing some monsters hasted again and moved to center for resting upstairs.

[dpeg]

I wonder if the Vault:$ layout should be changed a bit.

[Sandman25]

I wonder if the Vault:$ layout should be changed a bit.

Yes, put always visible ZoT traps near stairs to make it obvious players should not fight near stairs

[and into]

Obviously you need to be careful in how you use it, but stair-dancing is a perfectly good tactic pretty much throughout the game, except Vaults:5. Stair-dancing is the most obvious "solution" to the problem, but it is not a very good one. I think that's good. Stair dancing works well in nearly all places (used intelligently), but not in Vaults:5. Letting stair dancing work really well there would actually make the tactics *more* one-dimensional than they currently are.

Stair-dancing was risky in Vaults:5 before wardens, though I suppose it is even more the case now. "Getting to an area of low enemy density, then systematically working through the level" isn't a "gimmick" or a "one-dimensional" tactic or something, it is good strategy for 100% of the game. It is what you do in Slime:6 and Zot and everywhere else. Saying that this is "one dimensional" is like saying that "using god abilities" or "taking advantage of corridors" is "one-dimensional." In fact, each of those things is extremely varied and presents several different layers of strategic and tactical choices. Just because something can be described with a single, sufficiently abstract phrase doesn't mean that it is superficial in practice.

What makes last floor of Vaults a bit different from how one approaches Slime:6, wide-open levels in D, and much else besides, is that Vaults:5 dumps you right in the middle of an area with lots of enemies, which is actually a bit different and cool. I don't think any change is necessary.

Now, OP would have a point if "magic mapping + controlled teleport to outer rim" were the *only* reasonable move for a large number of builds. But that simply isn't true.

Other things you can do to tackle the welcome party include ?blinking (cTele is allowed in Vault:5) or semi-controlled blinking into one of the four hallways going from the middle to the outer rim. If you are fast you can probably lose some of the vault guards, hasting yourself or using scrolls of fog and fear can help here to break up the large group of guards into a few smaller groups that you can melee with appropriate buffs, allies, or help from god abilities. Though swiftness is sufficient, to be honest.

Shadow creatures is a low-investment spell that is extraordinarily powerful on Vault 5, one time on a Makhleb melee-focused dude I brilliance-memorized it, got (only) a few levels in summoning that was needed, and then brought a couple more !brilliance and one or two !magic. Used a scroll of blinking, then clogged up the hallway with powerful summons from shadow creatures and a couple of greater demons from Makhleb. A bit overly elaborate, and not something I'd recommend as a general strategy, but it made sense in the context of that particular game. And it worked extremely well. I mention that as something of a "thinking outside the box" solution.

That was before the new elemental evocables. You could get a similar effect more directly and easily with a few of the elemental evocables + a scroll or two of summoning (or rod of summoning or god abilities or whatever). This prevents you from getting surrounded and takes a lot of the heat off of you in general, making it pretty easy to take down the whole (or nearly the whole) vault:5 entourage plus the three or four enemies who inevitably spawn near the middle or just inside the hallway.

Obviously, getting into the corridor to fight is what you'll want to do for nearly every character, but there are lots of different ways to do that, then lots of different ways to break up the large mass of guards into more manageable chunks, or else prevent yourself from getting surrounded as you fight through them. Really so long as you have two scrolls of blinking and a potion of speed, you've got the essentials. Vaults:5 is still very dangerous, of course, but it isn't like the welcome party is insurmountable outside of the "map + tele" approach.

Personally, I hardly ever use ?magic mapping on Vaults:5. It works well, of course, but I seldom feel it is necessary.

[rchandra]

Stair-dancing is useful in many places because you are bringing 1-2 enemies away from a group. This is the same general technique as throwing a stone or magic dart at a gnoll and leading it away from his friends. Stair-dancing is silly in V:$ because you are generally bringing 8 guards (with possibly branded weapons) at once, while other enemies can also attack you on those turns (including more guards with reach). Taking 16+ attacks and then still being surrounded is not usually a good idea.

I wonder if the Vault:$ layout should be changed a bit.

I think it mostly works fine as is. If you wanted you could rearrange the guards to require that hastewalking alone cannot get past the initial circle, you need to at least do one other thing.

[Hurkyl]

How odd: my various SpEn have never felt in danger when pulling 8 vault guards up. Occasionally, I haven't even felt like I needed to blink out after arriving on Vaults:4. Same with melee brutes with good armour.

[1010011010]

Gods can help too:
Fedhas' Rain and Oklobs make V5 trivial. Nemlex with a legendary water card thins the herd. Zin's sanctuary, Kik's torment (risky) or ?torment if your undead, with simulacrum, death channel and animate dead turns the tide nicely. Lugonu's corruption. I'm not sure how step from time would work.

[daggaz]

Having a 175+ hp tank with monster AC and massive damage output thins the herd, too. I killed dozens (and no, i didnt just stand there and take it in the center). Stair dancing was a perfectly viable option for any character that could tank. Sure, you are going to take some hits, and yes, you are going to drag probably six or more enemies up each time, but are you an Orc or are you just a half-orc??

I even did it regularly with KoAs builds (uber evasion), tho the risk was a bit higher.

Glad to hear that the layout at least will be looked at.

[dck]

The layout is fine and lends itself very well to interesting approaches and stairdancing is an absolutely godawful idea as much better players than myself have already stated no matter how much of a "tank with monster AC" you are.

[mikee]

I have not been to vaults since stair sealing was implemented, although I imagine it is not that huge of a difference considering it can be dealt with a number of ways.

When I did play, I was probably the biggest proponent of stairdancing V:$. I have done it about 500 times with one rather avoidable death. It is potentially the safest way to approach the level, but this requires having a very good eye for the damage you are going to take, good preparation, and good expectations of what to do. Otherwise, it is probably really dangerous and eventually you will die doing it.

[Anarack]

While i havent gone thro Vaults 5 in 0.13 the only stragits that i know that work other than teleport are "Shatter Storming" ,going down the stairs and casting Shatter till evrything on the floor is dead, and Lugonu Corrupt.

[Sandman25]

Another strategy is Receive Corpse + Animate Dead (or Simulacrum before going down) + Death Channel. It didn't work initially for me (I didn't ask to receive corpse so I got surrounded in 2 turns) but after going up I returned with some Spectral allies (they can use stairs) and everything went fine despite I got marked.

[daggaz]

whatever, dck. if its such a god awful strategy, i must be one hell of an amazing player for consistently pulling it off with a kobold, huh? that or i guess i was just really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, reaaaaaaally lucky, every time. man, im such a n00b, talk about beginners luck.

[dck]

I stairdanced V: $ all day until I realized there is absolutely no reason to fight right next to the openings of four vaults full of really dangerous monsters and that just walking to any of the sides and killing the guards however you prefer is much safer. Or just ?fear and deal with the level as if the ambush never existed at all.
Kobolds have huge defenses so I have no idea why you talk about "pulling it off" with a ko.

[Sandman25]

Well, there is at least one reason to fight near stairs - Mark. Going upstairs to cleared level is much safer than having all those monsters from 4 vaults come for you even in a corner.
But Mark can be useful sometimes, my DD enjoyed being marked in a position where only one monster could see/attack it, killing most Vaults 5 monsters in that position was very easy.

[ZionRavescene]

I know this isn't relevant to the OP, but Chei worshipers with high piety can demolish the welcoming party with a potion of slow and a handful of slouches (it will probably take all of them you can throw). It's one of the few times in the game where a character can really nuke everything from orbit...just a few turns and the entire entrance area is nothing but a pile of scattered loot and corpses .

Note: I haven't played Chei in a few versions, and am unsure if anything has changed mechanically to make this tactic less effective.

[Sandman25]

Slow is ignored when Slouch damage is calculated in 0.12 (maybe earlier).

[Funkymoses]

Three slouches will obliterate most of the welcoming party even without the slow boost, and any max piety Chei follower probably won't even notice the hit because so much stuff is dying after #3.

[crate]

also being slowed is bad so you probably dont want to be slowed

[Galefury]

Great advice, as always!

[rebthor]

I've stairdanced the entrance a few times. It's easy enough with Yred and Beogh since you've got a ton of dudes to deal with the tons of dudes. I've also shatter hasted the vaults and that's also easy enough since not much can deal with 5 shatters to the face (even if it does wake up everything), but I'm not really sure I'd consider casting shatter x 5, going upstairs, regenerating mana, going back down and shattering again "stairdancing." By far, I've found the easiest thing to do is what was proposed above, haste walking down the corridor, maybe with a blink thrown in and pulling guys from the stairs to the side corridors. Perhaps it used to be a little more risky in some ways since you can't run up the stairs, but with stair-locking in effect I don't see any increased risk.

[ZionRavescene]

Thanks for the tips. I had no idea potions of slow no longer worked. I always thought it was a nice non-obvious decision point (bonus damage vs. not being stuck with slow status). I guess it made slouch too strong? Any other reason it would have been changed?

Also, I remember it sometimes taking 5 or 6 or 7 slouches to clear the entrance, but like I said, it's been a while since I've played with Chei. Maybe I was trying to kill the stone giants who wandered in from the vaults after my initial greeting. Or maybe my memory is wrong .

[Siegurt]

Thanks for the tips. I had no idea potions of slow no longer worked. I always thought it was a nice non-obvious decision point (bonus damage vs. not being stuck with slow status). I guess it made slouch too strong? Any other reason it would have been changed?

Also, I remember it sometimes taking 5 or 6 or 7 slouches to clear the entrance, but like I said, it's been a while since I've played with Chei. Maybe I was trying to kill the stone giants who wandered in from the vaults after my initial greeting. Or maybe my memory is wrong .

Actually haste/slow do effect slouch damage, as do leda's liquifaction, being burdenend, tengu flight, really everything that effects movement speed.

I think the point is just because you can get a couple more points of damage from slouching while being slow *doesn't mean it's a good idea* because being *slow* is a bad idea, period.

[Sandman25]

Actually haste/slow do effect slouch damage, as do leda's liquifaction, being burdenend, tengu flight, really everything that effects movement speed.

Yes, you are right. My memory lied to me

[Baldu2]

Haste+Blink worked for me last melee dude to get to a side corridor, though i miss stairdancing, as this was the most fun place to do it. I was very surprised the first time i saw locked stairs, still don't like it much, but i guess i'm getting used to it (means i don't go to vaults until i have a more complete kit then i did before, i used to do vaults before d20+ but now i'll usually do late dungeon before vaults if i'm tryharding for a win).

What i miss is that vault 5 entrance used to be the epic place that proved that my dude had become a badass, now i run like a sissy on everyone except tornado or vampire axe dudes. I consider this one specific change to have increased challenge at the expense of fun.

[MDvedh]

The only time I've encountered heavy troubles at V:5 entrance was my KoBe who had very painful stairdancing.
List of viable tactics which don't include stairdancing:
Shattering the hell out of everything dumb enough to come out.
Being Yred guy, casting ab then spamming ad.
Being a tough guy with vamp axe.
Using a ?immolation (rF required)
Bringing an army of Orcs/Demons/Brothers in arms.

Each of these was executed and felt quite reliable at ~xl20.

[Sar]

Innerflaming the guard ambush is probably fun, the problem is that guard ambush is not as dangerous as things that spawn in quadrants, which you woke up with a huge explosion.

[MDvedh]

Innerflaming the guard ambush is probably fun, the problem is that guard ambush is not as dangerous as things that spawn in quadrants, which you woke up with a huge explosion.

Yeah, I forgot about tt-ing a lot before !immolation.