POLL: Is Gr broken?

[Sandman25]

Is Gr broken?

[crate]

if you think gr is too strong please explain how it is stronger than dd or ce (or, alternatively, acknowledge that those races are somehow also too strong)

[Sandman25]

if you think gr is too strong please explain how it is stronger than dd or ce (or, alternatively, acknowledge that those races are somehow also too strong)

DD is limited with gods/spells.
Ce is plain boring because of kiting/hunger/ammo retrieval.
But main difference is that they have been present for a long time while Gr is a new species and can be changed easier.

[rebthor]

if you think gr is too strong please explain how it is stronger than dd or ce (or, alternatively, acknowledge that those races are somehow also too strong)

The best part of .13 was how they took a broken race that was made annoying by constant nausea and made it more broken.

[and into]

The poll may be useful, but it isn't asking the right question.

As it currently stands I'd probably say "No Gr isn't broken," but there are still ways in which the species should be tweaked because, as it stands, it renders a lot of melee too mindless (and makes a lot of tactical considerations become a lot less important than they should be).

DD is good because even if it is extremely powerful, its drawback is also very unique. Every time a large chunk of HP goes out, you have to spend a (limited) number of consumables to fix it. That makes you think differently about how you approach things. That's good. It is fine that the species is powerful. You don't have to worry as much about dying in any single instance of combat (wand of heal wounds + damage shaving + recharge ability), but if you take too much damage over time you get completely screwed. Being DD eliminates some threats, but for the most part it changes threats from one thing to another.

Low HP is not unique, and the combination of low HP and ridiculously high innate AC is a lot less interesting than low HP and ridiculous EV bonuses (like halflings), due to differences in how AC and EV work.

And that's a problem. Gargoyles have a lot of potential and I actually really like the "strong but fragile at the same time" theme that the species has, but right now they need to be differently (screw it: BETTER) designed in order to actually fulfill that potential.

But I've been saying the same thing for a while now and I get the impression that many people only read, "Gargoyles are broken! I say we nerf the hell out of them because I, and_into, am full of spite!"

It may be true that I am full of spite—but that has nothing to do with anything I've proposed about gargoyles!

EDIT: In other words you are framing the question in a way that might not get useful information, in my opinion.

DBL EDIT: Admittedly, Centaurs don't have the same kind of interesting drawbacks as DD. They have (on paper) some drawbacks, but in practice they don't really matter—except maybe the limits of the player's patience, when it comes to kiting, etc. But my problem with Gargoyle has never simply been "it's too strong," but rather the particular *way* in which it is strong, which just (increasingly) makes melee mindless, as your innate AC gets up to ridiculous levels.

[drywall]

if you think gr is too strong please explain how it is stronger than dd or ce (or, alternatively, acknowledge that those races are somehow also too strong)

DD is limited with gods/spells.
Ce is plain boring because of kiting/hunger/ammo retrieval.
But main difference is that they have been present for a long time while Gr is a new species and can be changed easier.

You do know you can play Ce without ranged combat right? And it's still likely the most powerful race? If you think Ce is bad at "magic" or "melee" you haven't played one.

[Sandman25]

There were several threads about Gr and I didn't want to create another one to discuss the same things again and again since I believe everyone has its opinion set and almost nothing can change it

[Sandman25]

You do know you can play Ce without ranged combat right? And it's still likely the most powerful race? If you think Ce is bad at "magic" or "melee" you haven't played one.

Notice I listed "kiting/hunger/ammo", not "ammo/hunger/kiting". My CeHu died in late dungeon and I got tired of kiting with Polearms AND Longbow.

[drywall]

You do know you can play Ce without ranged combat right? And it's still likely the most powerful race? If you think Ce is bad at "magic" or "melee" you haven't played one.

Notice I listed "kiting/hunger/ammo", not "ammo/hunger/kiting". My CeHu died in late dungeon and I got tired of kiting with Polearms AND Longbow.

That's not really a drawback of Ce as much as a problem with melee in general (you can already do this very easily with one or more of swiftness, haste, and boots of running with a low aut weapon - it doesn't even have to be a polearm - in fact, it is usually "optimal" to do so unless turncount is a concern)

And being annoying doesn't make something any less good. The fast metabolism almost never actually matters.

[crate]

For the record the only thing I would change about Gr is I would reduce their AC on d:1 (well I would probably also change some apts to be a bit less extreme but that's not a big deal). They are strong, yes, but they do not seem stronger than at least Ce or Mi or DD to me.

I will not deny that Ce is boring! However that is largely because it is so powerful. Also boring: DD, Sp.

[Sandman25]

Sp is not boring because it dies in 2 hits. At least that's how my 2 out of 3 Sp died (in Volcano and in Lair 1).

[Sandman25]

I see, most players don't think Gr is broken. Then I will play another Gr some day

[NOPE]

NOPE

[zogre]

Just because Gr has a good power curve doesn't mean the entire race is broken.

Since crawl is a single player game, why would your enjoyment of the MuFE experience (for example) be lessened by the existence of GrBe? After all, it's not like crawl has a PvP component the devs have to balance around, unless you count ghosts? I think counting ghosts is a bit of a stretch, but even if you do count player ghosts as "PVP", a pure melee GrBe ghost can be overcome by the tactic available to just about everyone - running away until you're big enough to come back later and smash them.

As an aside, I also don't think this is an appropriate post for the advice forum. There is a game design forum on these boards that exists for people to discuss questions like this.

[Sandman25]

Part of enjoying crawl for me is to win with new playstyle or weak character or at least not OP character, I want to feel proud of my win, that's why I no longer play DDFi, DEFE or CeHu (except on tournaments when I seek points/streaks and play about twice slower than usually because of online lag)
Regarding another question see below.

There were several threads about Gr and I didn't want to create another one to discuss the same things again and again since I believe everyone has its opinion set and almost nothing can change it

[zogre]

It is my opinion that Crawl play is not trivial, and so winning is something one should be proud of, even with an "easy" race/starting class. Plus, I think it's a good thing for Crawl that races and classes with an easier power curve exist, so new players can get a handle on the game with a bit of room for loose play.

Of course, I'm an awfulplayer, by the learndb definition; perhaps my opinion on such things is weighted by that

Cheers!

[Mankeli]

For the record the only thing I would change about Gr is I would reduce their AC on d:1

This is pretty much the change I would dislike the most in current Gr.

[Sandman25]

It is my opinion that Crawl play is not trivial, and so winning is something one should be proud of, even with an "easy" race/starting class. Plus, I think it's a good thing for Crawl that races and classes with an easier power curve exist, so new players can get a handle on the game with a bit of room for loose play.

Of course, I'm an awfulplayer, by the learndb definition; perhaps my opinion on such things is weighted by that

Cheers!

Yes, everyone is proud of his/her first win even if it is MiBe without any magic/ranged (that was my first win).

[and into]

For the record the only thing I would change about Gr is I would reduce their AC on d:1

This is pretty much the change I would dislike the most in current Gr.

I agree. I think gargoyles' starting AC is fine.

Specifically, I just don't like how much AC they get, and what that can mean in terms of your survivability during and after Lair, when you do things that should punish you more (like getting surrounded). Gargoyles aren't terribly broken, it isn't like you can throw tactics completely out the window or anything, I just feel that they allow for a degree of recklessness that I don't think is good. Which is why I floated the idea of a nerf that would be almost inconsequential if you used good tactics, but punishing if you used bad tactics. Didn't go over too well though.

Also, the "Pftt, if they aren't as good as centaurs your argument is invalid" line of reasoning is misguided. Yes, the existence of DD and centaurs and (to a somewhat lesser extent but still) Trolls does mean that gargoyles aren't completely beyond the pale, the way some species proposals on GDD are ("+50% HP and can dual-wield GSC, but... they have fast metabolism, for balance!" — this is an exaggeration, but not a very big one). But the fact that a few existing species are very strong doesn't mean it is a good idea to have more—that is a complete nonsequitor. I can just as easily turn that around and say, "Don't we already have *enough* power species? Geez, you can be a Troll, or a DD, or a centaur." Or: "Welp, better nerf centaurs and DD then, but we'll get to those later."

None of that matters, really. The real question is, are gargoyles well designed, and do they offer a unique and interesting choice and play style? That's the only question that matters.

For gargoyles, I'd say yes, for the *most* part, but I think they could be improved. Namely, in practice, "strong AC and other intrinsics, low HP" is a good idea, but in practice is not as meaningful as it seems on paper. I like gargoyles and want them to stay. I'd just like it more if they were pushed slightly farther down the line of "resilient, yet also fragile." I had an idea (perhaps not a good one) for how that could be done. But whether my idea is taken up or not, I think gargoyles could use some (relatively minor) tweaks. I've never called for a major nerf to them, my proposal was much more along the lines of moving naga constriction to a higher level (they used to start with constriction) or, a while ago, when merfolk had higher HP on level up than they do now. Both of those were changed from one stable version to another (not just from Trunk to stable or whatever).

But anyway, that's a somewhat more nuanced position than "broken? yes / no"

And—for the record—in absolutely no way would I suggest that a win with a gargoyle is non-meaningful or somehow doesn't "count"!

[crate]

oh nevermind I thought gr still had as much AC on d:1 as it used to have, they're fine now

[Klown]

Can Gargoyles not get confused? I keep running into spores and don't get confused. :s

[BlackSheep]

Exploding spores only confuse things that breathe.

[Mankeli]

Can Gargoyles not get confused? I keep running into spores and don't get confused. :s

They can get confused via attacks that doesn't care about poison immunity/unbreathing mutatons like tarantella's attack, confuse spell and the like.

Giant spore confusion immunity is due to gargyoles's not needing air to breathe.

[Klown]

okay thanks.
<3 Gargoyles

[rebthor]

Exploding spores only confuse things that breathe.

And yet I was surprised to see that unlike grey draconians, they take penalties to melee in water and can't go into deep water.

[BlackSheep]

And yet I was surprised to see that unlike grey draconians, they take penalties to melee in water and can't go into deep water.

I'd say they should be able to for the sake of consistency, but people are already complaining about them being overpowered.

[rebthor]

And yet I was surprised to see that unlike grey draconians, they take penalties to melee in water and can't go into deep water.

I'd say they should be able to for the sake of consistency, but people are already complaining about them being overpowered.

Remove Relec or something other than rPois? You could easily remove slow digestion too and maybe prevent them from casting sub blood although I think that mummies can which is really odd.

[Mankeli]

Remove Relec

It happened already, wasn't a big fan of this change.

[Siegurt]

It went in, then out then in again, with a "we should talk about it before deciding" in the revert of the revert of the revert comments. I suspect rElec's ultimate status for Gr is TBD.

[Mankeli]

It went in, then out then in again, with a "we should talk about it before deciding" in the revert of the revert of the revert comments. I suspect rElec's ultimate status for Gr is TBD.

Oh yeah? That's nice. And who says players shouldn't complain .

[Siegurt]

I'm pretty sure that the waffling had little or nothing to do with the forums.

[Mankeli]

I'm pretty sure I was joking, hence the

[evilmike]

My impression is that gargoyles are one of the stronger races, but not brokenly so. I do hear sometimes about people tabbing their way through vault:5 thanks to the huge AC, but I've done the same thing playing races that get an EV bonus.

What bugs me about gargoyles is the whole theme is really confusing with regards to seemingly arbitrary resists, nonliving status (but not fully, since torment still does some damage??), and tons of innate mutations. I think some of this has been sorted out recently though. I got no issues with a rock-themed species, I just think the flavour right now is a bit odd.

So the gameplay isn't broken, but I think some of the finer details of the design could be fixed a bit.

[Tedronai]

I recently ascended a GrBe (basically first try, the other one got pretty much one-shot very early on) and have to agree that it felt like one of the stronger races, but not too overpowered.

However it felt like the additional torment resistance was a bit too much help in the extended end-game. The tomb rune was the 4th rune I got in this run and it posed no serious threat for my character. I think torment resistance is not really necessary for gargoyles to work (especially not in a traditional 3-rune game). In my opinion the end-game would be more challenging without torment resistance and one would feel a lot less overpowered at this stage of the game (the only demons who still did some significant damage were hell sentinels).

[duvessa]

My opposition to Gr is that the species is redundant with tengu, or at least, redundant with what tengu is trying to be. Both have good defenses but poor HP (yes, one is focused more on AC and one on EV, but that really doesn't change the principle very much) and their aptitude sets are nearly indistinguishable. Gr happens to be significantly easier but they're both aimed at pretty much the same design space, and it's a space that's already encroached upon by HE and Ha. Obviously I would never have added Gr in the first place, but I really think that either gargoyles or tengu should be removed at this point.

And don't say something about air or earth magic, if elemental school biases were interesting then MD would have stayed.

[Hurkyl]

I recently ascended a GrBe (basically first try, the other one got pretty much one-shot very early on) and have to agree that it felt like one of the stronger races, but not too overpowered.

However it felt like the additional torment resistance was a bit too much help in the extended end-game. The tomb rune was the 4th rune I got in this run and it posed no serious threat for my character. I think torment resistance is not really necessary for gargoyles to work (especially not in a traditional 3-rune game). In my opinion the end-game would be more challenging without torment resistance and one would feel a lot less overpowered at this stage of the game (the only demons who still did some significant damage were hell sentinels).

The endgame would be more challenging if you take away the gargoyles AC too!

Honestly, most of the few Gr that I've played have been precisely because of the torment resistance. Everything else is pretty nice too, but ultimately, I simply dislike the Torment mechanic, particularly in a game that's actually out to kill you. (as opposed, e.g., to a game like FFX-2 where you can spend the whole game trying to avoid leveling and still slaughter most bosses with decent tactics)

[njvack]

Gr is a new species and can be changed easier.

You must be new here

[dck]

did crawl just get compared to final fucking fantasy

[Sandman25]

Gr is a new species and can be changed easier.

You must be new here

Could you elaborate please? I know there were several changes to Gr and I don't know pre-0.12 species which were changed in 0.12/13/14. Don't you confuse change with removal?

[njvack]

Ah, I just meant that the dev team has not historically been shy about changing long-standing features and races. Sorry; that was unclear.