Shoals, Spider, casters

[Tiktacy]

The "halls rune" has nothing to do with the real argument which is all spellbook backgrounds are great because they start with guaranteed spellbooks and on top of that the books are crazy good.
I don't see what you mean that magic users are reliant on exp but other guys aren't.

Melee and ranged fighters can simply find powerful ranged or melee weapons and powerful armour on the ground to immediately boost them up. While experience boosts the effectiveness of said weapons and armour, casters do not have the additional bonus of being able to simply "find" useful items on the ground regularly. Sure, spell books and rings/amulets are useful, but those are hardly what you would call "easy finds", especially compared to how easy branded weapons and armour are to come by in orcish mines.

Yes, all spell books are generally quite powerful, but its undeniable that a squishy caster are going to have some serious problems staying on par with melee characters without being able to go for additional exp reserves to boost the power of their arsenal to reliable levels for lair branches(except maybe FE, as fireball is quite good in these early branches).

Putting the topic aside for a moment, I do think you should work on keeping your ideas a bit more organized and your points more open. Ive noticed that you have a weird habit of stating opinion as fact. While opinions can indeed be widely accepted(and can often be used in place of "facts"), you should try to state them with a bit more open mindedness. This way, people will be more inclined to give their honest opinions on a situation, and you can have a more constructive conversation.

[Sar]

Squishy caster. What game are we playing again?

[duvessa]

The "halls rune" has nothing to do with the real argument which is all spellbook backgrounds are great because they start with guaranteed spellbooks and on top of that the books are crazy good.
I don't see what you mean that magic users are reliant on exp but other guys aren't.

Melee and ranged fighters can simply find powerful ranged or melee weapons and powerful armour on the ground to immediately boost them up. While experience boosts the effectiveness of said weapons and armour, casters do not have the additional bonus of being able to simply "find" useful items on the ground regularly.

Background has no effect whatsoever on item generation. The "caster" backgrounds find exactly as many powerful melee weapons as the "fighter" backgrounds do.

[Hurkyl]

Squishy caster. What game are we playing again?

Crawl, of course. A game where each XP devoted to magical skills don't increase your physical defenses, and the most significant defensive options one can find lying around the dungeon very harshly impair one's ability to even cast spells.

[Sar]

I would hesitate to call high-HP casters I played (HO, LO, Na, Dr, Mf) "squishy". They all also used powerful weapons to great effect.

[dck]

Are you sure? Because in the crawl I'm playing a good leather armour or a good robe or just about anything that gives good AC/EV balance doesn't impair spellcasting terribly at all.
Also in my crawl ozoarmour and condensation and stoneskin and a lot more things exist.
Might wanna get that checked.

@Tiktacy: Maybe I don't think there's a need to say "in my opinion" before every sentence because I assume people I'm talking to aren't just -that- degree of stupid and I don't need to hamper conversation bloating up every phrase with useless shit, since that's disrespectful to everyone.

[One-Eyed Jack]

Squishy caster. What game are we playing again?

Crawl, of course. A game where each XP devoted to magical skills don't increase your physical defenses, and the most significant defensive options one can find lying around the dungeon very harshly impair one's ability to even cast spells.

The XP going towards polearms or slings doesn't increase your physical defenses, either.

Literally the only reason a "caster" would have lesser physical defenses than a "non-caster" would be because they don't wear heavy armour (=plate) early on, and lots of species don't want to wear heavy armour anyway and the ones that do usually have high hp regardless

Also "casters" don't typically need ac as much because they have the tools to either kill at a distance, kite efficiently, disable, or any of the other reasons you're playing a wizard in the first place and also have defensive spells like swiftness rmsl stonsekin blink etc

[Hurkyl]

Melee and ranged fighters can simply find powerful ranged or melee weapons and powerful armour on the ground to immediately boost them up. While experience boosts the effectiveness of said weapons and armour, casters do not have the additional bonus of being able to simply "find" useful items on the ground regularly.

Background has no effect whatsoever on item generation. The "caster" backgrounds find exactly as many powerful melee weapons as the "fighter" backgrounds do.

Such a find is still very different qualitatively. If you spend the first eight levels training up fighting/dodging/armour/long blades and you find a stash with a plate mail armour and a whip of electrocution, you get a pretty significant, and immediate, upgrade both to your offense and defenses, and don't have to change anything you've been doing, except for switching your training from LB to M&F.

If you spend the first eight levels training up spellcasting/conjurations/charms and you find a stash with a plate mail armour and a whip of electrocution... you don't. Wearing the plate mail armour pretty much negates all of the talents you have so far, and wielding the whip doesn't help you blast things any faster, is still probably inferior to blasting/running if something dangerous reaches melee range, and it would be suicide to try and use it as your primary weapon before investing in a significant amount of training for things very different from what you've been doing.

(incidentally, I currently neither agree nor disagree with Tiktacy's thesis)

[rchandra]

low-skill weapons such as whips of elec are still fantastic for conjurers, in fact I'd rather find that on a DECj than a MiBe (and would get 6 or so M&F immediately or very soon). Even high-skill weapons such as triple blades are still great for conjurers even if they won't use them as much as a long-blade MiBe would.

The plate armour is of course useless for DECj, but they are welcome to find robes of archmagi/resistance and mottled/steam armour and randarts and +2 accessory armours and +3 leathers.

[Sar]

yeah what kind of a caster needs a shitty whip of elec anyway
if I wanted to melee dudes I would roll a berserker

[dck]

Elementalist backgrounds get guaranteed increases on their damage outputs periodically in the form of new spells being learned and that's way more reliable than being in Lair killing things with a +2 falchion because not even a long sword has showed up. Also the type of armour they want to wear doesn't impair EV noticeably so dodging doesn't require huge investments to get pretty high and if an offensive magic user would find a whip of elec or some other similar weapon what would be suicidal would be not to use it.

[One-Eyed Jack]

A wz might get less out of an early strong weapon than a be or whatever (this is probably wrong in the case of the whip, but you could say that they get less out of a great sword of venom or something) but they get more out of books

Like wz can kill a lot of stuff with imb that they couldn't with magic dart, or whatever. whereas a 0 conj <8 int HoBe isn't going to give a shit that the book of power spawned. so it's the same thing, just that what benefits some characters doesn't benefit others as much

[Hurkyl]

if an offensive magic user would find a whip of elec or some other similar weapon what would be suicidal would be not to use it.

If that were true, then it would be impossible for a offensive magic user to survive if they didn't find a whip of elec or some other similar weapon.

[Sar]

It is possible to win Crawl as a FeMo of Chei, this doesn't make it a good build idea.
Same with skipping awesome melee weapons as a "caster".

[Tiktacy]

It is possible to win Crawl as a FeMo of Chei, this doesn't make it a good build idea.
Same with skipping awesome melee weapons as a "caster".

That is almost as absurd as rolling a troll assassin. And thats coming from a long time Chei lover.

As for the part about melee as a caster, I always train a weapon to 6-ish if it has the elec brand and isn't too out of the way like a battle-axe. But I do think his point still stands valid(even if it was kind of a bad example).

[Sar]

Uh, TrAs is extremely good. Like, super-good. Just turn on UC on turn 0 and enjoy your curare and free cloak.

[Tiktacy]

Uh, TrAs is extremely good. Like, super-good. Just turn on UC on turn 0 and enjoy your curare and free cloak.

Well, the idea was a troll using stealthy stabs as its main attack. But I can see what you are getting at with that.

[Sar]

My FeMo found a book of Power on D:3 or D:4, so I wasn't using melee exclusively. Being flexible is good.

[mikee]

So, uh... this thread is all about roleplaying, right?

[Hurkyl]

It is possible to win Crawl as a FeMo of Chei, this doesn't make it a good build idea.
Same with skipping awesome melee weapons as a "caster".

Train for what you have. It's silly to divert exp away from your main means of killing things and staying alive for an awesome melee weapon you may or may not find at some unspecified point in time in the future.

If you find one, then you can consider diverting exp away from your main means of killing things and staying alive and into what is necessary to hit things with a weapon.

[Sar]

What the hell, where did I state the opposite ever?

[and into]

Every magic background starts with a book that provides enough firepower (and, in various measure, some versatility, defense, and/or utility) to get you well beyond Lair. Certain types of enemies might hassle you a bit, but that's pretty much the case for all backgrounds, and it is why you have as options consumables or—failing that—running away.

Melee characters are more reliant on drops, but this is *usually* okay because there are many more weapons and a wider selection of heavy and light armors available, than there are books. When the RNG doesn't give you an upgrade to your weapon, though, it really really sucks. Much more so than if you have to go through Lair without a new book.

Casters aren't "more reliant" on experience. I do think that casters require a bit more self-consciousness and care in terms of how you allocate the experience you get. They tend to be less straightforward than melee dudes when it comes to what you train and when. (Some types of spells are fine at around 7 or 8 percent—or even higher—failure, others you want lower if you are going to use them, and your rates change based on intelligence and encumbrance of your armor, and so on. How you should train is more complicated than melee, certainly. For some books it is better to prioritize higher level spells and come back to the lower ones later, etc. etc.)

But I don't think it follows that caster backgrounds are *more* reliant on experience than melee backgrounds. Most casters (a few exceptions) get their spells down to an acceptable rate of failure then train dodging (and usually pick up some stealth, if you are smart). If other attractive spells haven't shown up, you might consider pushing more into "hybridizing" early on. Similarly, if an awesome weapon drops, you should likewise consider pushing into melee earlier—there might be better options available, there might not. But, eventually, in nearly all games, you reach a point where the best strategy is to get some type of halfway decent melee option online. *Eventually* a decent low investment weapon spawns, or you get an appropriate enhancer staff, and getting those up to snuff skill-wise takes very little relative to getting your next level of spells reliable, so you take a detour from magic momentarily. Exactly when and where this happens will vary a lot, but it nearly always does happen, and something like an early whip of electrocution will nearly always make it a better idea to get some melee earlier as opposed to later.

Anyway: In 100% of cases, neglecting to at least consider if and how you can make use of really good drops, at any point in the game, is bad play. Even if using it now wouldn't be wise, very good drops (like whip of electrocution) should make you think about where you are taking your character, and whether / how you can take advantage of your good luck.

[Tiktacy]

Every magic background starts with a book that provides enough firepower (and, in various measure, some versatility, defense, and/or utility) to get you well beyond Lair. Certain types of enemies might hassle you a bit, but that's pretty much the case for all backgrounds, and it is why you have as options consumables or—failing that—running away.

Melee characters are more reliant on drops, but this is *usually* okay because there are many more weapons and a wider selection of heavy and light armors available, than there are books. When the RNG doesn't give you an upgrade to your weapon, though, it really really sucks. Much more so than if you have to go through Lair without a new book.

Casters aren't "more reliant" on experience. I do think that casters require a bit more self-consciousness and care in terms of how you allocate the experience you get. They tend to be less straightforward than melee dudes when it comes to what you train and when. (Some types of spells are fine at around 7 or 8 percent—or even higher—failure, others you want lower if you are going to use them, and your rates change based on intelligence and encumbrance of your armor, and so on. How you should train is more complicated than melee, certainly. For some books it is better to prioritize higher level spells and come back to the lower ones later, etc. etc.)

But I don't think it follows that caster backgrounds are *more* reliant on experience than melee backgrounds. Most casters (a few exceptions) get their spells down to an acceptable rate of failure then train dodging (and usually pick up some stealth, if you are smart). If other attractive spells haven't shown up, you might consider pushing more into "hybridizing" early on. Similarly, if an awesome weapon drops, you should likewise consider pushing into melee earlier—there might be better options available, there might not. But, eventually, in nearly all games, you reach a point where the best strategy is to get some type of halfway decent melee option online. *Eventually* a decent low investment weapon spawns, or you get an appropriate enhancer staff, and getting those up to snuff skill-wise takes very little relative to getting your next level of spells reliable, so you take a detour from magic momentarily. Exactly when and where this happens will vary a lot, but it nearly always does happen, and something like an early whip of electrocution will nearly always make it a better idea to get some melee earlier as opposed to later.

Anyway: In 100% of cases, neglecting to at least consider if and how you can make use of really good drops, at any point in the game, is bad play. Even if using it now wouldn't be wise, very good drops (like whip of electrocution) should make you think about where you are taking your character, and whether / how you can take advantage of your good luck.

Hmm, I think you have some good points, and I agree with you for the most part. But, you can't deny that this for makes playing a caster more difficult than playing a melee(even if only by a little). Being snuck up on by a hydra in swamps at only 80~ hp is much more devastating than 130~ hp and while wearing heavy armour. The latter will be nearly unharmed, while the former could potentially be dead that turn.

The alternative to this being the ability to get a big boost in hp and being put in the same scenario with 100+ hp and more access to escape spells due to having more access to exp and loot. The melee characters will also have a big advantage, but the difference is much less steep(as most melee characters with 130~ hp and heavy amour will probably consider hydras popcorn BEFORE diving deeper in the dungeon).

Maybe this is all just a straw man point, though.

[Sandman25]

Hydra is a very bad example. Any caster will kill it much easier than unarmed Tr, Mi with Axe or HE with Long Blade.

[and into]

Tiktacy: True, but the way I'd phrase that is, "On a long enough time-line, training to cast (at least some) spells tends to become optimal strategy for everyone" (except those worshiping Trog, obviously).

In other words, even most dudes in plate can and should pick up some basic, staple power-spells (like swiftness, repel missiles, blink, etc.) eventually. Once you've had access to sufficiently large amounts of experience and a great deal of loot, it becomes rather easy to do this, and nearly always optimal to do so. Also, most casters will want to train up a good weapon before going too deep into the game, and (again, on a long enough time line) may even want to transition to a heavier armor. So the division between "spell caster" and "melee dude" breaks down progressively over the course of the game, because you have progressively better opportunities to get the benefits of both styles while negating the penalties of mixing them.

[One-Eyed Jack]

Hmm, I think you have some good points, and I agree with you for the most part. But, you can't deny that this for makes playing a caster more difficult than playing a melee(even if only by a little). Being snuck up on by a hydra in swamps at only 80~ hp is much more devastating than 130~ hp and while wearing heavy armour. The latter will be nearly unharmed, while the former could potentially be dead that turn.

Why would a "caster" have 50 less hp than a "non-caster"? They get like 5ish less from the background probably. Where does the other hp come from?

It would be more appropriate to say something like a "caster" would have 100 hp and 10/19/0 defenses while a "non-caster" would have 105 hp and 25/6/0 or something. Which one is "squishier"?

[Tiktacy]

Hydra is a very bad example. Any caster will kill it much easier than unarmed Tr, Mi with Axe or HE with Long Blade.

Ok, how about merfolk javelineers or impalers? Or maybe tentacled monstrosities? Does that work better?

[Tiktacy]

Hmm, I think you have some good points, and I agree with you for the most part. But, you can't deny that this for makes playing a caster more difficult than playing a melee(even if only by a little). Being snuck up on by a hydra in swamps at only 80~ hp is much more devastating than 130~ hp and while wearing heavy armour. The latter will be nearly unharmed, while the former could potentially be dead that turn.

Why would a "caster" have 50 less hp than a "non-caster"? They get like 5ish less from the background probably. Where does the other hp come from?

It would be more appropriate to say something like a "caster" would have 100 hp and 10/19/0 defenses while a "non-caster" would have 105 hp and 25/6/0 or something. Which one is "squishier"?

Mi with fighting 19 vs DE with fighting 5~? Just using the 2 classic races should reflect what you can expect hp-wise.

[One-Eyed Jack]

Mi with fighting 19 vs DE with fighting 5~? Just using the 2 classic races should reflect what you can expect hp-wise.

Well yeah a DE is easier to kill then Mi but that doesn't have jack shit to do with either backgrounds or "casting"

Also why would a Mi have fighting 19 in lair?

[Sandman25]

Hydra is a very bad example. Any caster will kill it much easier than unarmed Tr, Mi with Axe or HE with Long Blade.

Ok, how about merfolk javelineers or impalers? Or maybe tentacled monstrosities? Does that work better?

Shoals is a very dangerous place, don't go there before clearing all Lair, all Orcish Mines, D1-20, having at least EV 20 and evocable/castable Flight. Repel missiles is highly recommended. Even with rune lock it's easier to do Snake/Spiders and ignore Shoals until very late in the game (for most characters, Enchanters is a sure exception)

[Hurkyl]

Hmm, I think you have some good points, and I agree with you for the most part. But, you can't deny that this for makes playing a caster more difficult than playing a melee(even if only by a little). Being snuck up on by a hydra in swamps at only 80~ hp is much more devastating than 130~ hp and while wearing heavy armour. The latter will be nearly unharmed, while the former could potentially be dead that turn.

Why would a "caster" have 50 less hp than a "non-caster"? They get like 5ish less from the background probably. Where does the other hp come from?

People don't often play melee-centric deep elves, or Troll blasters.

And even if we're comparing HuWz to HuFi, which would be much more similar... note that as a data point, without training any fighting at all, a lvl 15 HuFi has 100 HP and a level 15 HuWz has 88 HP. And as you mentioned earlier, a "caster" doesn't need as much physical defenses, and consequently they won't have trained as much of them.

Going from 0 to 7 fighting brings the Wz up to 101 HP. That might even be a lot of fighting for a blaster. What would a melee-oriented fighter have by this time? maybe 10.8 fighting, which is 115 HP.

It's not a 50 HP difference, but it's far more than you make it out to be.

[Sar]

7 Fighting is absolutely not a lot of Fighting for any level 15 character, be it "basher", "blaster", "stabber", "poker" or whatever.

High-HP races with great magic apts exist, too: HO, Na, DD, Mf...

[Hurkyl]

High-HP races with great magic apts exist, too: HO, Na, DD, Mf...

Excellent. That doesn't help you when you're playing a lower HP race.

Your choice of examples is somewhat strange, though: Hill Orcs only have +1 HP aptitude, and are average to terrible in all magical schools (including -3 in spellcasting), and the only thing they have above average is +1 in fire. Merfolks don't even have a positive HP aptitude.

[Sandman25]

I think it's obvious that casters are guaranteed to have lower defense (HP, AC, EV) because non-casters train just one weapon skill (melee, unarmed or ranged) while casters train at least one magic school and spellcasting. And some players suggest training Stealth also (for casters only again, stealth is almost useless in plate armour). Also some players train some weapon skill for casters early (again no character in plate armour train any magic early).

PS. Enchanters are casters.

[Sar]

Hill Orcs make for damn great FE. I know because I actually played one. Look, he has Fire Storm! And a demon whip! And 270 HP! And the game didn't crash and burn!

His EV sucks horribly though, what was I thinking.

[Sandman25]

Hill Orcs make for damn great FE. I know because I actually played one.

Had that HOFE as good defenses as HOBe?

[Sandman25]

Hill Orcs make for damn great FE. I know because I actually played one. Look, he has Fire Storm! And a demon whip! And 270 HP! And the game didn't crash and burn!

His EV sucks horribly though, what was I thinking.

Excellent example.

15326 | Lair:3 | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting
17512 | Lair:4 | Reached skill level 10 in Conjurations
17710 | Lair:3 | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
19846 | Lair:5 | Reached skill level 11 in Spellcasting
21063 | Lair:6 | Reached skill level 12 in Spellcasting
25213 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
25215 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 1 in Maces & Flails
25984 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 13 in Spellcasting
26521 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 10 in Fire Magic
26731 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 1 in Shields
27858 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 5 in Shields
42263 | D:15 | Reached skill level 1 in Armour
110031 | D:27 | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging

Are you sure FE have the same AC/EV/HP/SH as Be?

[One-Eyed Jack]

With 0 Fighting a HuFi at level 1 has 18 hp, a HuWz has 11
With 7 Fighting a HuFi at level 15 has 108 hp, a HuWz has 101
With 27 Fighting a HuFi at level 27 has 252, a HuWz has 245
With ϱ Fighting a HuFi at level φ has χ, a HuWz has χ-7

Note also that this is the maximum possible difference by background (for humans; for trolls and ogres the difference is about 9); fighters have the most HP in the game and Wizards have the least.

If you think that characters that train fighting are easier because they aren't as "squishy" and that fighters "will have" more fighting than casters then you should probably consider training fighting instead of making an argument about game design

[sage]

I think it's obvious that casters are guaranteed to have lower defense (HP, AC, EV) because non-casters train just one weapon skill (melee, unarmed or ranged) while casters train at least one magic school and spellcasting. And some players suggest training Stealth also (for casters only again, stealth is almost useless in plate armour). Also some players train some weapon skill for casters early (again no character in plate armour train any magic early).

PS. Enchanters are casters.

Have you never played a "melee character" in leather? They'd be benefitted a fair bit by stealth (although I never train it because I forget). Similarly, they can cast fun spells they find pretty early, like rmsl or swiftness.

[Sar]

Endgame HOBe of mine had somewhat better defences, I'm not sure how early game looked (HO have somewhat bad Dex and poor Dodging apt). At no point in the game did I feel squishy though, due to excellent Fighting apt. Today I would probably skip on the Fire Storm and get more AC/EV. That would be more practical, even if boring.

Also, for you Chei lovers, another squishy caster.

[One-Eyed Jack]

I think it's obvious that casters are guaranteed to have lower defense (HP, AC, EV) because non-casters train just one weapon skill (melee, unarmed or ranged) while casters train at least one magic school and spellcasting. And some players suggest training Stealth also (for casters only again, stealth is almost useless in plate armour). Also some players train some weapon skill for casters early (again no character in plate armour train any magic early).

PS. Enchanters are casters.

Pop quiz: which takes more xp, getting sticky flame to 3% failure or mindelay on a glaive?

[Hurkyl]

Hill Orcs make for damn great FE. I know because I actually played one. Look, he has Fire Storm! And a demon whip! And 270 HP! And the game didn't crash and burn!

His EV sucks horribly though, what was I thinking.

I didn't say otherwise. But it wasn't because of "great magic aptitudes".

Even in your example, you "lost" 9006 skill points to your spellcasting aptitude, and "gained" only 4750 skill points from your fire aptitude.

Well, to be fair, if we're counting humans as average, we should note they would have lost 2469 skill points to the default -1 aptitude. But that still adds up to your aptitudes being an overall penalty than benefit.

[Sar]

If I played this dude today I would do things differently I suppose. Like, I would definitely not postpone training Dodging till D:27. That was dumb of me.
Would probably get melee earlier too. I was only starting getting the whole "caster dudes do not explode if they try hitting enemies in melee". Was my first "hybrid".

Edit: what the flying fuck are skillpoints. I show you a dude who had huge HP and could beat up everything in melee and also cast FStorm and all that on 3 runes of XP and you talk to me about some points.

[Tiktacy]

A few things I want everyone to start doing a bit more of:

-Give as much detail as you can to explain your argument
-Try to see things from a more open minded perspective
-Assume that if a player says something, it likely has some kind of meaning to it and you should try harder to understand it before posting
-Avoid situational, narrow arguments. Make them broad and easily applicable arguments that effect players as a whole, not just "good" players.

Maybe not in this thread specifically, but the forums as a whole should try to follow some of these rules more respectably. I feel like we get really caught up in silly things that are out of the way and often end up getting really off topic.

[Sandman25]

Though Sar is right, there is little difference for some players. Guess who is HOBe and who is HOFE.

1)
25213 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
25346 | Lair:8 | Reached XP level 14. HP: 112/112

2)
30839 | Lair:6 | Reached XP level 14. HP: 76/105
33690 | Lair:6 | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting

Spoiler: show

The first is HOFE, I guess Be had really great AC and didn't need HP
22820 | Lair:2 | Found a labyrinth entrance.
24582 | Lab | Identified the +7 plate armour "Wioxargh" (You found it in a labyrinth)

[Sar]

Or maybe I was rushing mindelay like a stupid person because I recall that's what I used to do.

[BlackSheep]

If I had to guess, the HOBe had a really big weapon and was rushing to min. delay.

What was the point of this discussion again? The impact of the rune lock, wasn't it?

[Sandman25]

Have you never played a "melee character" in leather? They'd be benefitted a fair bit by stealth (although I never train it because I forget). Similarly, they can cast fun spells they find pretty early, like rmsl or swiftness.

I find starting books very useful so I start EV-based melee characters as MfIE or OpTm. Though I played a HaBe once but it was an assassin really so it relied on stealth for stabbing.

[Sandman25]

I think it's obvious that casters are guaranteed to have lower defense (HP, AC, EV) because non-casters train just one weapon skill (melee, unarmed or ranged) while casters train at least one magic school and spellcasting. And some players suggest training Stealth also (for casters only again, stealth is almost useless in plate armour). Also some players train some weapon skill for casters early (again no character in plate armour train any magic early).

PS. Enchanters are casters.

Pop quiz: which takes more xp, getting sticky flame to 3% failure or mindelay on a glaive?

Why do you compare mindelay on glaive with sticky flame? Pop quiz: which takes more exp, getting mindelay on Bardiche or Fire Storm to 1%?

[Hurkyl]

With 0 Fighting a HuFi at level 1 has 18 hp, a HuWz has 11
With 7 Fighting a HuFi at level 15 has 108 hp, a HuWz has 101
With 27 Fighting a HuFi at level 27 has 252, a HuWz has 245
With ϱ Fighting a HuFi at level φ has χ, a HuWz has χ-7

Note also that this is the maximum possible difference by background (for humans; for trolls and ogres the difference is about 9); fighters have the most HP in the game and Wizards have the least.

If you think that characters that train fighting are easier because they aren't as "squishy" and that fighters "will have" more fighting than casters then you should probably consider training fighting instead of making an argument about game design

Excellent. This doesn't account for the actual differences in training regimes a player might have.

I never said that casters are harder because they're squishy. My casters usually have tools to kill at a distance, kite efficiently, disable, and have defensive spells like swiftness rmsl stoneskin blink etc. When these tools work well, things can be fairly easy; soaking up damage is usually the very last line of defense, and consequently receives (and needs) much less attention.

This isn't about game design: this is about the mind-boggling fact that people in this thread can't seem to imagine that in a game where you get to control both your initial race/background combo and the way your character develops, that characters who charges headfirst into harm's way might be a wee bit better at soaking up that harm than characters who do not. (or alternatively, I suppose, habitually train every character like a tank and can't imagine anyone would do otherwise)