Skald still worth it?

[b4rR31_r0l1]

Now that the Skald was reworked, is this class still a good option? I read somewhere the song spells are bad, as well as infusion. So the only spells left are Regeneration , Shroud of Golubria and Spectral weapon.
How about these?
Are there bette alternatives for a hybrid?
Or is it better to go Fighter or Gladiator and then hope on Books/Sif Muna/Vehumet for a hybrid?

[and into]

Infusion is fine for the first few floors of the dungeon. It is basically the Skald's version of Beastly Appendage. BA is probably better, but w/e, they aren't meant to be used very far in the game, but they do help quite a bit in surviving until Temple / Lair — that's my point.

Shroud is still good and Regeneration is as good as ever. Spectral weapon is very strong, but note that it is spell power-dependent. Song of slaying is situational but not useless, kind of depends on area and monsters you are fighting. Usually worth picking up unless you are finding other awesome books right from the start. Song of Shielding I usually just ignore throughout game.

Overall, I'd say the book of battle isn't a bad draw. Song of shielding needs to be substantially changed or replaced, but I think there's a lot of agreement about that so maybe it will happen soon. But aside from shielding the book is good.

Transmuters, Enchanters and Necromancers are stronger hybrid backgrounds obviously but then those are extremely strong backgrounds in general. In my experience, current skalds are generally easier in early game, but weaker in mid-game than old skalds. (Both obviously are weaker than the really old 0.5 crusader background, but that was ridiculously overpowered.)

Whether that's good or bad will depend. If you were good enough at this particular style of build such that you could get old skalds to Lair consistently, then you might see the change as more of a nerf overall. If not, you may find the new background stronger, or at least less frustrating. It is worth trying out either way.

In any case, I definitely do not think the re-work was a clear-cut nerf, but rather a change with positives and negatives.

[duvessa]

Skald was never a good background. It's still stronger than fighter IMO, but gladiator is probably better. Sif/Vehumet are terrible god choices for any of those three backgrounds. Song of slaying is in fact useless by the way.

[and into]

Song of slaying is in fact useless by the way.

I've usually felt it is worth memorizing if nothing better has come along, and I've used it a few times to (what seemed to be) worthwhile effect. But maybe that was confirmation bias.

I agree that skald was never a very strong background. (Well if I'm going to be pedantic I could point out that there was one version of DCSS, I believe, where crusader had been renamed skald but still had berserker rage spell, that was definitely a strong background. )

[Laraso]

Infusion is useful at the beginning, it helps a bit with taking out adders and such. After about XL5, it's mostly useless IMO. The damage boost is very minimal, we're talking only 2-4 extra damage with every hit.

Song of Slaying isn't really bad, it's just underwhelming. Every time the counter goes up by one, you get an extra +1 +1 slaying bonus to all attacks. So if it's at (3), you're getting +3 +3. The effects of that aren't very noticable, but it lasts for a decent amount of time and at a cost of only 2 MP it's better than nothing. You just need to be careful in choosing when to use it, as it generates noise. Obviously it's not a game-changing spell or anything, but unless I'm terribly mistaken, having slaying bonuses is generally better than not having slaying bonuses.

The rest of the spells are all decent. Regeneration and Shroud of Golubria are pretty straightforward, but Spectral Weapon is a little tricky. If you use it right, it increases your damage output by a lot. However, if something hits it, it shares the damage with you and I believe you take twice the amount of damage you would have taken if it hit you, so you have to be careful with it (I'm not 100% sure on the exact numbers). It's generally not a good idea to have it out when dealing with AoE spells such as fireball. I've never really bothered trying out Song of Shielding. Turning your MP directly into HP is nice if you're playing a pure melee character, but a Skald still needs their MP for support spells.

IMO, Skald really isn't worth picking. Many of the spells quickly become obsolete, and you don't really have much to look forward too in the Charms spell school outside of Deflect Missiles and Haste, both of which can be acquired fairly easily without needing to start the game with Charms skill. Deaths Door is very situational, and the rest of the Charms spells are mostly just temporary weapon brands.

[and into]

Skald is not a great "power pick," but if you want to try out charms-based melee hybrid, it is a good background.

duvessa is completely right that you shouldn't pick veh or sif for a melee dude who wants to hybridize. You should pick Okawaru and rely on book drops—but that does obviously leave an element to chance. Skald is probably the harder path, but it is still a far cry from a challenge run, provided you pick a good species for it (Merfolk, for instance, or Halfling) and, well, *also* go with Okawaru.

Veh *is* a great pick if you are a blaster who wants to hybridize, but that's different.

Anyway: If you like the idea of buffing up with spells and fighting in melee from the get go, Skald is the background for that. However, even after rework, it could really use some more tweaks, and is underpowered with respect to other options that can achieve a similar play style by mid-game.

[b4rR31_r0l1]

Okay, thanks for the feedback.
The reason I ask this is because I never got to try out a MfSk in ym 0.12 version, and now that I have spellcasters, pure melee and stealth builds all tested, I wanted to try a hybrid.
The wiki sayy MfIE is a pretty good hybrid. I tried some, but never got something good. Does someone have advice for me?

[duvessa]

Obviously it's not a game-changing spell or anything, but unless I'm terribly mistaken, having slaying bonuses is generally better than not having slaying bonuses.

It also turns out that not making tons of noise is better than making tons of noise.

[Klown]

Gargoyle Conjurer(Maces/Conjurations) isn't too hard to put together and it's AC boost helps.

@Duvessa: I disagree Skald beats Fighter personally. Fighter is so <3

[Siegurt]

Obviously it's not a game-changing spell or anything, but unless I'm terribly mistaken, having slaying bonuses is generally better than not having slaying bonuses.

It also turns out that not making tons of noise is better than making tons of noise.

I use SoS in the vaults when I've been marked and am fighting a ton of junk that's going to come find me whether I'm making noise or not, I also use it when clearing out like the orc entrance and vault entrance (Where I've cleared the area around it and am diving in and beating the snot out of a group who all see me in LOS anyway)

It's certainly not great, but I would call it one small step above useless.

The best spell in the book is Spectral Weapon. It's the gift that just keeps giving. Of course you don't have to start as a Skald to get it...

[Mankeli]

I use SoS in the vaults when I've been marked and am fighting a ton of junk that's going to come find me whether I'm making noise or not

It's certainly not great, but I would call it one small step above useless.

Well, if using SoS in a situation where you shouldn't be in the first place counts as "positive" then a pretty small step .

The best spell in the book is Spectral Weapon. It's the gift that just keeps giving. Of course you don't have to start as a Skald to get it...

Yeah, Polearms + Spectral weapon is somewhat effective (read: murder!). But you have to live long enough to get that spell (and to be able to use it effectively).

Overall, I must say I don't care much for the new skald book: Not that fun and not very effective (not that every starting book should be mega powerful).

[DracheReborn]

I agree with everyone else that Spectral Weapon is great, Infusion is ok, and the Song spells aren't that useful.

Comparing to the old book of War Chants, it seems that Song of Slaying replaces the brand spells and Song of Shielding replaces Repel Missiles. I think I'd prefer any of the brand spells as a damage multiplier over Song of Slaying and IMO Repel Missiles is a more useful defensive spell than Song of Shielding probably. I mean, sure I get that Shielding is supposed to be an emergency measure that could save your life, but in practice I really have a hard time imagining such situations occurring while I still have a full MP bar, and as a result I don't bother to spend the 4 spell slots on it. Shielding will probably be more worthwhile if it could be decoupled from the state of the MP bar, i.e. defensive bonus is scaled to spell power, not to current MP, but maybe that makes it too similar to Shroud.

[mattlistener]

if something hits [your spectral weapon], it shares the damage with you and I believe you take twice the amount of damage you would have taken if it hit you, so you have to be careful with it

It's half, not twice. [edited per correction below.]

The big question unanswered here is whether the spectral weapon has any AC, GDR, or resistances. If the damage amounts flying around are very large, and the player is highly resistant to them all, then having an unresistant appendage available to hit that gives you a full third of the incoming hurt would be very bad.

[Siegurt]

I agree with everyone else that Spectral Weapon is great, Infusion is ok, and the Song spells aren't that useful.

Comparing to the old book of War Chants, it seems that Song of Slaying replaces the brand spells and Song of Shielding replaces Repel Missiles. I think I'd prefer any of the brand spells as a damage multiplier over Song of Slaying and IMO Repel Missiles is a more useful defensive spell than Song of Shielding probably. I mean, sure I get that Shielding is supposed to be an emergency measure that could save your life, but in practice I really have a hard time imagining such situations occurring while I still have a full MP bar, and as a result I don't bother to spend the 4 spell slots on it. Shielding will probably be more worthwhile if it could be decoupled from the state of the MP bar, i.e. defensive bonus is scaled to spell power, not to current MP, but maybe that makes it too similar to Shroud.

SoG is a defensive bonus, but it's not proportional to spell power at all, in fact it's a set chance of negating the attack based on how strong the attack is (That is to say it's defensive power is inversely proportional to the strength of the attack it's defending against)

Math:

Spoiler: show

SoG has a set 1 in 3 chance of doing nothing at all.

2 out of three times there's a (damage done) in (10+damage done) chance that the shroud will break, offering no protection at all. The rest of the time it will prevent the damage altogether

See this graph for odds of SoG protecting you from a given attack:

Graph

Y is percentage chance of protection, X is damage taken after AC, Spell power doesn't effect protection given at all.

[Siegurt]

if something hits [your spectral weapon], it shares the damage with you and I believe you take twice the amount of damage you would have taken if it hit you, so you have to be careful with it

According to the wiki page, when the spectral weapon receives X damage, the player takes X/3 damage, not 2X as represented above.

If an AOE were to hit both the player and the spectral weapon for X damage, the player would take X + X/3.

The big question unanswered here is whether the spectral weapon has any AC, GDR, or resistances. If the damage amounts flying around are very large, and the player is highly resistant to them all, then having an unresistant appendage available to hit that gives you a full third of the incoming hurt would be very bad.

Spec weapons are resistant (that is to say have one pip of resistance) to fire, cold, electricity and poison, have AC, EV and max HP proportional to spell power (damage done is proportional to both spell power and weapon skill, as well as the weapon base type)

Damage chart from source:

Spoiler: show

  Code:

    // At 0 power, weapon skill is 1/3 as effective as on the player
    // At max power, weapon skill is as effective as on the player.
    // Power has a linear effect between those endpoints.
    // It's possible this ends up too strong,
    // but 100 power on Hexes/Charms will take significant investment
    // most players wouldn't otherwise get.
    //
    // Damage multiplier table:
    //     |            weapon skill
    // pow |   3       9       15      21      27
    // --- |   -----   ----    ----    ----    ----
    // 0   |   1.04    1.12    1.20    1.28    1.36
    // 10  |   1.05    1.14    1.24    1.34    1.43
    // 20  |   1.06    1.17    1.28    1.39    1.50
    // 30  |   1.06    1.19    1.32    1.45    1.58
    // 40  |   1.07    1.22    1.36    1.50    1.65
    // 50  |   1.08    1.24    1.40    1.56    1.72
    // 60  |   1.09    1.26    1.44    1.62    1.79
    // 70  |   1.10    1.29    1.48    1.67    1.87
    // 80  |   1.10    1.31    1.52    1.73    1.94
    // 90  |   1.11    1.34    1.56    1.79    2.01
    // 100 |   1.12    1.36    1.60    1.84    2.08


[moocowmoocow]

I think new skald is stronger than the old one. There's always been far better alternatives for hybrid though, such as IE or Ne.

[Siegurt]

Also anecdotally, Usually if I get hit by some AOE, I take some damage, but it's not horrible, and the spec weapon is often destroyed. Typically I try not to summon one when there's dangerous AOE casters around. The damage it can pass on to you is limited by the number of hit points it has (10+d(pow/3)), however the damage passed along *is* Damage done/2

  Code:

  if (owner && owner != oppressor)
        {
            int shared_damage = damage / 2;
            if (shared_damage > 0)
            {


Note shared damage can also never be directly fatal.

[mattlistener]

Ah, I'd misinterpreted the "2:1" ratio statement on the wiki. I'll edit my post.

Also, I've updated the wiki page with the info in this thread.

[mattlistener]

Does Spectral Weapon care about the enchantments or brands on your wielded weapon, or only the base type?

[One-Eyed Jack]

It respects brands and also at least some special on-hit abilities (like the artifact scythe that causes necromancy miscasts)

[siprus]

I'd say it certainly better than the old skald. If you found a branded weapon (not too rare to find some kind of branded weapon) the old book only gave you SoG, Repel missiles and Regen.

I'd trade repel missiles to spectral weapon any day of the week. + infusion makes first few level less of an pain. New book also gives some reason to put points in your charms skill, which is improvement. (With the old book you really didn't want to train charms too much unless you wanted to wear bigger armor, or found haste)

Anyway As it seams most people don't think song of slaying is worth the hassle, I'd suggest giving it slaying bonus as soon as you cast it (maybe scaling from 0-5 with spell power)

[DracheReborn]

I'd say it certainly better than the old skald. If you found a branded weapon (not too rare to find some kind of branded weapon) the old book only gave you SoG, Repel missiles and Regen.

It's not unusual for me to not find a good branded weapon even after Lair and Orc. Good branded weapon meaning good base type with a good brand of the type I've trained for. Often, I'd have invested in a vanilla weapon of good base type instead. So the brand spells are one thing I often find myself missing on new skald.

Anyway As it seams most people don't think song of slaying is worth the hassle, I'd suggest giving it slaying bonus as soon as you cast it (maybe scaling from 0-5 with spell power)

The main problem with Song of Slaying is the noise though (noise 10, down from 12 initially, I believe). If the noise is reduced further, that would be reason enough to get the free slaying. What if you just hum it instead of singing it, eh?

Interestingly, Song of Shielding doesn't produce noise, despite the name. Not that it needs any more disincentive to use.

[siprus]

I'd say it certainly better than the old skald. If you found a branded weapon (not too rare to find some kind of branded weapon) the old book only gave you SoG, Repel missiles and Regen.

It's not unusual for me to not find a good branded weapon even after Lair and Orc. Good branded weapon meaning good base type with a good brand of the type I've trained for. Often, I'd have invested in a vanilla weapon of good base type instead. So the brand spells are one thing I often find myself missing on new skald.

Anyway As it seams most people don't think song of slaying is worth the hassle, I'd suggest giving it slaying bonus as soon as you cast it (maybe scaling from 0-5 with spell power)

The main problem with Song of Slaying is the noise though (noise 10, down from 12 initially, I believe). If the noise is reduced further, that would be reason enough to get the free slaying. What if you just hum it instead of singing it, eh?

Interestingly, Song of Shielding doesn't produce noise, despite the name. Not that it needs any more disincentive to use.

Now its only useful if you have many enemies you are going to slay, you can line them so weak ones come first, and you are in position where you aren't risk of getting in more dangerous situation with the noise it makes.

With this change it would useful in situation when you just didn't need to worry about sound it makes.

[DracheReborn]

Well, MarvinPA has made some changes in trunk. Song of Shielding is gone, RIP. No replacement for it (yet) in the Book of Battle.

Song of Slaying seems to be a bit stronger now, but with lower spell cap. IMO, it's noise level could still stand to be reduced. It's still the loudest non-AOE spell (in a tie with Malign Gateway) and nowhere near as powerful as other spells in that noise range.

[and into]

I kind of like the idea that song of slaying is a double-edged sword, so if it is tweaked, personally I'd like it to be kept loud, but given a significantly more powerful effect. If Song of Shielding is not being replaced by something else, in particular, I think song of slaying could be made a good deal stronger without making book of battle *too* good.

So maybe a noticeable "starting" slaying bonus based on spell power (power capped at 80 or something, with up to +4/+4 or +5 at spell power cap), and the slaying bonus also increases up to +9/+9 as you kill enemies, but makes a lot of noise continuously throughout its use? This would also mean that you get "max power" from it after killing only 5 or 4 enemies while under its effect, which is pretty reasonable. Another good change might be to make it so that slaying increases by +1/+1 every time an enemy is dispatched in combat, but enemies with high HD relative to your character level have a chance to increase slaying by more than 1, just so that "take out popcorn first then take out the tougher guys, so long as it isn't dangerous to delay attacking them" is not always best strategy, as that can be a bit annoying.

If it worked something like that it would be very powerful, but you'd have to be careful of its use, as it makes lots of noise, so it wouldn't just be a mindless buff. Could also decrease effective stealth to 0 for duration of the song or something, so once a wakened enemy comes into LOS he's guaranteed to see you and attack.