Extended endgame

[dck]

Trog is much stronger than chei, tso and veh so you're wrong unfortunately. TSO in extended kinda comes close when you're fighting trash but Trog gives you the better brand for big fights.

[Sandman25]

Trog is much stronger than chei, tso and veh so you're wrong unfortunately. TSO in extended kinda comes close when you're fighting trash but Trog gives you the better brand for big fights.

What do you mean as big fights?
The best brand vs big groups of dangerous monsters is Haste + Foo Storm (and/or Tornado).
The best brand vs big groups of mutating monsters is Summon Butterflies and cBlink.
The best brand vs a single dangerous monster is Apportation (vs Demons) and Silence/Slimify (in Tomb).
Even if you insist on killing Pan/Hell lords, paralyzing needles are much better than AM.
My last AM user died to LCS after missing 2 times in a row, AM is not as reliable as it looks.

[dck]

If you're even considering fighting packs of dangerous things you need to take a step back and rethink your "strategy", because that's not a good idea.
Trog gives you the best brand in the whole game against dangerous 1v1 fights, which if you play with any common sense at all are the only "big fights" you take place in.

[Sandman25]

If you're even considering fighting packs of dangerous things you need to take a step back and rethink your "strategy", because that's not a good idea.
Trog gives you the best brand in the whole game against dangerous 1v1 fights, which if you play with any common sense at all are the only "big fights" you take place in.

1) I would be really interested to see what you do with Trog when you are dropped in the middle of some dangerous pack in Pan/Hell. Do you always have almost limitless teleportation sources and cTele ring? I have not seen the ring in my last 10+ games.

2) I would be really interested to see how you play open levels in Hell where you can't use digging to create corridors.

It sounds like you have never found AM weapons with other gods. Perhaps I should change my signature, it should tell "Antimagic is overestimated, Necromutation is underestimated".

[dck]

As long as you keep posting stuff that openly discredits anything you say I'm perfectly fine with your signature containing nothing but lies.

[rebthor]

And you actually have no choice but to clear them if you want the demonic rune.

Actually you get a warning now whenever you enter a level with a rune (including demonic) so you don't have to clear any non-rune levels if you don't want to.

this is pretty cool

That is better than pretty cool because there is literally nothing more annoying that killing or luring pan lord after pan lord and finding loot when all you wanted was a stupid rune and you're on your 20th pan level already.

[Siegurt]

And you actually have no choice but to clear them if you want the demonic rune.

Actually you get a warning now whenever you enter a level with a rune (including demonic) so you don't have to clear any non-rune levels if you don't want to.

I was slightly mistaken (just a case of misremembering), you get a warning if you try to *leave* a level that still has a rune on it, so you can still just skip levels and take the first portal you see, as long as you say "no" when it asks if you want to leave the demonic rune behind; Slightly different mechanics, same result.

[Sandman25]

As long as you keep posting stuff that openly discredits anything you say I'm perfectly fine with your signature containing nothing but lies.

I guess you have no answers to my questions except "Trog is the best god in extended, you lie all the time".

Why do you think Trog is the best?

1) Summons? TSO has better summons
2) Healing? TSO/Makhleb have better healing
3) MR? You don't need it that much in extended, you are XL 27 with stasis/clarify/fog/cBlink/fire storm/whatever. MR from gods is much more valuable early/middle game.
4) AM? It's not that uncommon to find AM weapon in/before extended. I find AM weapon more often than ring of cTele for example.
5) Needles? Take Oka and enjoy spells.

My last question. Do you think all those people who abandon Trog and join TSO are as stupid as I am?

[Kate]

And you actually have no choice but to clear them if you want the demonic rune.

Actually you get a warning now whenever you enter a level with a rune (including demonic) so you don't have to clear any non-rune levels if you don't want to.

I was slightly mistaken (just a case of misremembering), you get a warning if you try to *leave* a level that still has a rune on it, so you can still just skip levels and take the first portal you see, as long as you say "no" when it asks if you want to leave the demonic rune behind; Slightly different mechanics, same result.

The prompt is for unique runes, which demonic runes aren't.

[Siegurt]

I was slightly mistaken (just a case of misremembering), you get a warning if you try to *leave* a level that still has a rune on it, so you can still just skip levels and take the first portal you see, as long as you say "no" when it asks if you want to leave the demonic rune behind; Slightly different mechanics, same result.

The prompt is for unique runes, which demonic runes aren't.

Sure enough, looked it up in the code:

  Code:


bool item_is_unique_rune(const item_def &item)
{
    return (item.base_type == OBJ_MISCELLANY
            && item.sub_type == MISC_RUNE_OF_ZOT
            && item.plus != RUNE_DEMONIC
            && item.plus != RUNE_ABYSSAL);
}


  Code:

 if (rune && item_is_unique_rune(*rune))
    {
        return yesno("An item of great power still resides in this realm, "
                "and once you leave you can never return. "
                "Are you sure you want to leave?");
    }


My memory must be playing tricks on me, oh well.

[and into]

Trog is much stronger than chei, tso and veh so you're wrong unfortunately. TSO in extended kinda comes close when you're fighting trash but Trog gives you the better brand for big fights.

I either agree very much or disagree entirely with this post, depending on exactly what you mean.

If you are comparing "Trog throughout whole game" and "TSO throughout whole game," then yes, I agree, it is only in extended where the usefulness of TSO even *begins* to catch up to the usefulness of Trog. And of course "extended" is so named because you have to go through everything else to get there, and for nearly all of that "everything else," Trog is awesome and TSO rather lackluster. (Well, you will be lustrous from that huge stealth-destroying halo, but lackluster all the same.)

If, on the other hand, you are saying, "Specifically for extended, without any consideration of earlier in the game, Trog is better than TSO for extended," this strikes me as a rather bizarre and inaccurate thing to say—even though I agree that anti-magic is usually the better brand, even in extended.

Trog and TSO are both completely viable in extended, and Trog is not "underpowered" for extended by any means—he's as good as ever—*but* TSO is probably stronger if we are strictly (and thus somewhat artificially) talking *only* about extended. Does this mean it is worthwhile to switch from Trog to TSO? No, in my opinion generally not, but I find god-switching incredibly tedious and unfun in most situations so YMMV.

(I just ascended a 10-runer GrBe who never left Trog, I got a great mace of AM from Trog and a great mace of holy wrath from Rupert, and I used the former more often than the latter even in Pan, where I eventually killed all the unique pan lords with AM and a few bros in arms. It was deeply satisfying that Cerebov got off a single firestorm and one summon spell that didn't help his cause very much before getting magic-locked from AM. Poor Gloorx barely managed a lone torment before the same. Also, super-regen and +MR from Trog's Hand was useful throughout entire game, full stop.

For Zot I liked having both, AM was better for nearly everything, but HW was excellent at destroying certain obnoxios HP-bags, like bone dragons and tentacled monstrosities, really fast—more of a convenience than a necessity, sure, but nice to have all the same.)