Boots of running/swiftness

[Sandman25]

Boots of running are overrated at least while Swiftness exists. Especially in 0.13

[Volteccer_Jack]

First of all it's basically impossible to overstate the importance of movement speed in crawl, since walking away is the most powerful tool in the game. It's more likely that boots of running are underrated than overrated (for example, by you).

Also Swiftness works just fine with boots of running, and I have no idea why you seem to think they conflict.

[Sandman25]

First of all it's basically impossible to overstate the importance of movement speed in crawl, since walking away is the most powerful tool in the game. It's more likely that boots of running are underrated than overrated (for example, by you).

Also Swiftness works just fine with boots of running, and I have no idea why you seem to think they conflict.

Swiftness is roughly twice better than boots of running yet I have never seen advice to acquire a book hoping for the spell and have never read happy post "I have just found Swiftness in Elven Halls".

Boots do conflict with Swiftness for Te, Ce, Na, Tr etc

[rebthor]

Because swiftness is a very common spell and most people will have found it several times over in a game. Swiftness also needs to be recast, can't be used by Troglodytes and requires at least some investment in spellcasting,charms or air. Swiftness now also halves your stealth and reduces your chance to find traps.

Contrast that to boots of running which are extremely rare, always work and have no malus.

But it's OK, we can keep making up reasons why boots of running aren't that good.

[and into]

Boots of running are overrated at least while Swiftness exists. Especially in 0.13

Running and swiftness are both extremely powerful. And they stack (as long as you aren't exceeding movement speed cap) with each other as well as quick movement mutation and haste. The power of one does not impinge upon the power of the other(s).

I think you are operating on the assumption that you only need to be faster than average. It is true that being faster than average speed is a big jump in survivability, but the faster you can get, the better. This is because the biggest dangers in the game are
1.) enemies with a ranged attack of some kind (be it spells, torment, smite, longbow, etc.)
2.) enemies that are faster than average
Escaping (or lowering the number of attacks while retreating) for the latter and getting out of LOS more quickly for the former means that the more speed, the better. Period.

[Sandman25]

Because swiftness is a very common spell and most people will have found it several times over in a game. Swiftness also needs to be recast, can't be used by Troglodytes and requires at least some investment in spellcasting,charms or air. Swiftness now also halves your stealth and reduces your chance to find traps.

Contrast that to boots of running which are extremely rare, always work and have no malus.

But it's OK, we can keep making up reasons why boots of running aren't that good.

Listing "extremely rare" as first advantage is quite eloquent. Speed is not that useful when you are not fighting (even Chei's worshipers get only 1 stealth check per action), give me a book with Switftness and I will use
either almost 3 levels in stealth skill (boots of stealth), +2 pair of boots of the Seven Spirits {+Blink MR Dam+5}, +1 pair of boots "Phorrumu" (worn) {rF++ Str+1 Dex+4 Dam+1} or +1 pair of boots "Dabesch" (worn) {rPois MR++}..

[Sandman25]

Boots of running are overrated at least while Swiftness exists. Especially in 0.13

Running and swiftness are both extremely powerful. And they stack (as long as you aren't exceeding movement speed cap) with each other as well as quick movement mutation and haste. The power of one does not impinge upon the power of the other(s).

I think you are operating on the assumption that you only need to be faster than average. It is true that being faster than average speed is a big jump in survivability, but the faster you can get, the better. This is because the biggest dangers in the game are
1.) enemies with a ranged attack of some kind (be it spells, torment, smite, longbow, etc.)
2.) enemies that are faster than average
Escaping (or lowering the number of attacks while retreating) for the latter and getting out of LOS more quickly for the former means that the more speed, the better. Period.

How useful is it to have 0.9 aut per move instead of 1.0? (Let's pretend that Swiftness doesn't exist. I know it is very nice to have 0.5 aut per move but it is not boots' merit, it's one of Swiftness and Haste). It's only 10% increase so it is not that good vs Black Mamba or Wolf Spider, it only gives a "safe" method to kite normal speed melee monsters (take Ce with polearms instead, it's much safer) or to hope to run from them.

Most dangerous monsters are ranged attackers, true.
You will need to travel 5 steps on average to get one less torment or one less bolt of fire (4 instead of 5), I would take stealthy boots, boots with rF+ or +5 damage. Too bad they removed boots of assassin, that was my favorite unrandart.

[and into]

Listing "extremely rare" as first advantage is quite eloquent. Speed is not that useful when you are not fighting ...

rebthor mentioned rarity because you brought up that people don't acquire books for swiftness. So saying that swiftness is not uncommon while boots of running are very rare, is a fair point with respect to that.

But really, it would be foolish to acquire armor specifically in order to get boots of running. You might *hope* to get boots of running. But the reason you actually acquire armor is because there are a number of useful things you might get from it, boots of running being one of the better possibilities but not the sole reason to do it. It isn't like staff or wand acquirement where, usually, you really are hoping for one of a few possibilities. (And the mechanics behind acquirement in those cases mean that it isn't necessarily foolish to be acquiring for a fairly specific item.)

Pointing out that awesome artefacts can spawn that are potentially competitive with boots of running is also rather beside the point. (Although I will say that running is one of the few egos that aren't replicable by artefacts, and is also good enough to potentially compete with almost any randart that can spawn. Artefact boots have to be *reallllly* good before they start making me seriously consider hanging up my boots of running.)


Speed is not that useful when you are not fighting, sure. I think we agree that speed is very useful when you are fighting, however. What you seem to disagree with is, "how much speed is worthwhile." I say that, so long as you are not hitting movement speed cap already, the more speed the better. And, for this reason, boots of running are the bee's knees.

[and into]

How useful is it to have 0.9 aut per move instead of 1.0? (Let's pretend that Swiftness doesn't exist. I know it is very nice to have 0.5 aut per move but it is not boots' merit, it's one of Swiftness and Haste). It's only 10% increase so it is not that good vs Black Mamba or Wolf Spider, it only gives a "safe" method to kite normal speed melee monsters (take Ce with polearms instead, it's much safer) or to hope to run from them.

Most dangerous monsters are ranged attackers, true.
You will need to travel 5 steps on average to get one less torment or one less bolt of fire (4 instead of 5), I would take stealthy boots, boots with rF+ or +5 damage. Too bad they removed boots of assassin, that was my favorite unrandart.

Hmmm..... I have gotten running since the nerf, and I really liked it, they still felt very powerful, but that was only with one or maybe two characters. I feel like wizmoding it on a few other characters right now to see how I feel about it. Maybe the nerf is enough to change my mind for some types of characters, who knows.

Being faster than average is really helpful, if you don't have swiftness then running gives you that. And if you do have swiftness, running stacks without adding any extra turns to cast, or anything, giving you greater overall speed. So I suspect boots of running are still extremely powerful, but as I said I'll specifically test out the post-nerf boots of running and reconsider after that.

[Sandman25]

I apologize for my remark about rarity.
My main point is that boots are overrated, not that they are not useful when you have Swiftness. Personally I would prefer to use boots from my previous post, maybe because I almost never die while running away.

[dck]

Your main point is wrong then, the boots of fast are significantly stronger than the randarts you listed because movespeed is more OP than EV.

[ackack]

The "nerf" to boots of running barely even qualifies. Most monsters in the game move at speed 10, and most of the advantage conveyed by being faster than something is there as soon as you're even a tiny bit faster. Now you just have to keypress longer to create space.

Further, if one thinks that adjusting move delay from -2 to -1 is a meaningful reduction in power, it makes very little sense to me why you'd pick boots of running (quite rare, many characters cannot use) rather than Swiftness (common, available in starting books, usable by anybody non-Trog). I'm sure the argument is "Swiftness requires skill choices" but
with the exception of heavy armour users the skill investment is basically trivial.

[Baldu2]

The reason boots of running and swiftness are so amazingly powerful is not just because they are useful during combat, but because they are useful before combat is engaged to create situations that are massively advantageous. The ability to kite/run/get to priority target quickly are also incredible, but shaping the field of conflict to stack advantages in my favor and against my opponents cannot be replicated by almost any other means in this game.

Boots of running is one of the best items in the game and swiftness is one of the best spells in the game.

[Sandman25]

Your main point is wrong then, the boots of fast are significantly stronger than the randarts you listed because movespeed is more OP than EV.

Do you want me to create another thread? I don't think EV is OP. AC 50 is way better than EV 50.

[1010011010]

having obtained boots of running with a few characters, I notice my survivability does increase. The majority of enemies are normal speed and those who are fast are usually weaker. When faster than a melee enermy you can simply walk away, this is a lot of beefy monsters.

Now onto boots v swiftness,The key difference between boots and swiftness is passive v activated.

Swiftness requires MP:
Not much but that MP could be the difference between one more spell, there's also silence, MP draining monsters and maybe anti magic weapons. It also might upset Trog.

Swiftness also takes up a turn:
It could be used before a fight but not all fights are anticipated.

Swiftness requires skills:
Your most likely training charms for haste but this should be mentioned, especially for heavy armour builds

Boots of running require Feet:
The correct size and shaped feet to be accurate.

Boots of running require no moth of suppression:
The one monster capable of mundaneafying your boots, although a Cacodemon might give you hooves.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Speed is not that useful when you are not fighting

Nothing is useful when you are not fighting. Except food. When you ARE fighting, speed is by FAR the most important factor. Guess what, spending a turn casting a spell makes you slower.

Your entire argument seems to be predicated on the idea of not using Swiftness and running at the same time, which is patently absurd. Moving at 0.7 is better than moving at 0.9, for the same reason attacking at 0.7 is better than attacking at 0.9.

[yogaFLAME]

What is the point of this thread again? Both things are good. Use both. Arguing which is "better" is wankery.

[zugundertherug]

Nothing is useful when you are not fighting.

Regen?

[zugundertherug]

What is the point of this thread again?

It's that the forum seems to think that boots of running are one of the best items in the game and should always be used no matter what. While I agree they are good they aren't an autowear, even among the ordinary magical boots. Depending on the situation sometimes I prefer boots of flying over running though boots of stealth do suck imo.

[njvack]

Nothing is useful when you are not fighting. Except food.

Also, stealth. And information (mapping, detection, scrying). And movement (ctele, passwall). And level-altering things (LRD, corruption, decks). And probably other things I can't think of offhand.

Maybe: "Nothing is useful when you are not either fighting or not fighting."?

[Sar]

AC 50 is way better than EV 50.

This is a non-choice that never happens in the game. What happens is that most characters can quickly get a bunch of EV in early-mid game by just training Dodging (and having not completely horrible Dex) while getting similar amount of AC (especially if you also want to cast spells) is more tricky and item-reliant.

[Amnesiac]

since the nerf I've almost forgoten about them, imo getting 30% less of some elemental damage by wearing artifact boots is better than increasing your movement speed by 1 aut to just escape situations you shouldn't even get into...

[Lasty]

sometimes I prefer boots of flying over running

This is deeply confusing to me. Boots of flight do very close to nothing; there are a small number of situations where they are a convenience, and a vanishingly small number of situations where they are a genuine assist; there are also a small number of situations where flying makes you more vulnerable. For the situations where flight is actually useful, the Flight spell and a swappable Flight ring both exist, along with potions of flight.

For everyone else, I don't really see the point of this thread: moving faster than speed 10 is indisputably good. Boots of running allow all characters with humanoid feet to do that permanently if you are lucky enough to find them. Swiftness also allows you to move faster than speed 10 if you are lucky enough to find it, and also do enough skill training to cast it modestly reliably. The downside of boots of running is typically that it blocks access to dramatically inferior boot brands, though sometimes it blocks access to fantastic artifacts that are more rare than the boots of running. The downside of Swiftness is that it cost you skill point and spell slots, it cuts your stealth massively, it doesn't work in shallow water, it penalizes your trap detection, and it must be recast either continuously or every time you wants its effect.

Both are very strong to the point where they dramatically outrank similar things you might compare them with. With both it is possible to think of situations where they are unhelpful relative to some alternative. All characters are better off if they have access to both (though some characters are restricted from using one, the other, or both).

@OP, people get excited about finding boots of running not because they are invariably better than Swiftness or the best possible artifact boots, but rather because for the majority of characters that find them they offer a huge step up from previously-available options and dramatically increase survivability and because they are not always available. Even for characters who already have Swiftness boots of running add options: use both for a compound bonus; use the boots so you don't need to accept the drawbacks that come with Swiftness; etc.

[zugundertherug]

sometimes I prefer boots of flying over running

This is deeply confusing to me. Boots of flight do very close to nothing; there are a small number of situations where they are a convenience, and a vanishingly small number of situations where they are a genuine assist; there are also a small number of situations where flying makes you more vulnerable. For the situations where flight is actually useful, the Flight spell and a swappable Flight ring both exist, along with potions of flight.

I sometimes prefer flight for heavy armour users I play, where flight takes a considerable xp investment to cast. That being said, I prefer flight in Shoals, Cocytus, and sometimes Tomb (traps can make noise/cause damage, which really sucks in Tomb). Also if I'm using elemental evocables boots of flying are wonderful since I can phial at close range and force monsters to fight in the water. A flight ring could be used, but you really don't want to use a jewellry slot just for flight, plus you can't refresh mid flight. Potions are good but limited.

Even for non heavy armour users flying boots can be useful, though aside from the phial use admittedly less so as the flight spell is much easier to cast.

[dck]

Flight over running in Tomb because of mechanical traps, wow.
Also flight is charms/air which are two really good magic schools so it's not like investment in those skills is wasted in any way, furthermore getting the 5 levels it can take you to cast it in each is not exactly a "considerable" investment.

[and into]

Yeah, by the time you are doing Tomb (unless some crazy speed run game) you have gotten so much experience thrown at you that it is easy to accidentally get spells castable without even meaning too. That late in game just like, leave the skill on and kill like half a dozen guys, and there ya go.

Flight doesn't stop noise or zot or teleportation traps which are the most dangerous, in general, but particularly in Tomb because they are *all* over the place and Tomb is overflowing with Guardian Mummies and Mummy Priests.