Trolls

[Gunthar]

When looking and playing with trolls I noticed that they appear to become somewhat underpowered (falling behind) from about level 5 and up.

The issues are the big limitation in armor choices and in the many negative aptitudes in addition of some other (even hidden) penalties.(Ex claws can not get enchanted or the choice of claws vs. weapons)

To buff them I would recommend following changes:

Increase following aptitudes:
Fighting to 0 or to +1 (Natural fighters)
Maces & Flails to +1 (imagine the using of clubs and giant clubs)
Throwing to 0 or +1 (imagine throwing stuff/rocks around)
Unarmed Combat +1 or +2 (Claws users)

Give Regeneration 3 (They have currently Regeneration 2) around level 12
Give Tough Skin 3 around level 6

Rest remains as is now.

That is totally a smaller upgrade (+5 to +8 apt points better, an additional +1 AC at level 6 and +1 regeneration rank at level 12.) because it should make the life of a troll a bit easier at higher levels as now.

[some12fat2move]

Trolls are objectively (well, I'm not in a position to say objectively, but the blue-names are if any care to confirm or deny this) one of the strongest species in the game, they do not need a buff. If they seem underpowered to you, my guess is you are wasting experience on throwing and not training enough UC.

[dpeg]

I think it's a great feature that trolls have a simple early game and encounter a few problems later on. Much better than the other way around, which seems to be the norm in Crawl.

[Mankeli]

I think it's a great feature that trolls have a simple early game and encounter a few problems later on. Much better than the other way around, which seems to be the norm in Crawl.

Yeah, I think part of the Gargoyle's charm (great job BTW) too is the different difficulty curve (I think they are much more interesting species than trolls on other aspects).

@OP: Trolls have an easy, if not the easiest very early game and on my experience, they start to lose their early game powerhouseness in Lair the earliest and maybe after mines too. So I have to agree with some12fat2move. If you are playing a troll melee guy, you train UC.

[and into]

I think it's a great feature that trolls have a simple early game and encounter a few problems later on.

That's just a ridiculous myth that the wiki latched onto. Trolls do not "encounter a few problems later on". They are one of the strongest species for the entire duration of the game.

To be fair, Trolls potentially do encounter the problem that you (the player) has become lazy auto-tabbing and you get yourself killed because of it. I've lost way more trolls to that than I have to problems getting resistances.

I guess, compared to other species, they do theoretically have problems with resistances and getting special effects and affixes. In practice you can usually work something out, though, especially with the crazy regeneration and health. I do find taking Trolls through *extended* to be pretty meh, for a number of reasons.

[Klown]

My trolls train only UC. The Lair is when mine turn weak, with whatever God being the only thing that can save them; and even so their invo/evo apts are low.

[Mankeli]

I think it's a great feature that trolls have a simple early game and encounter a few problems later on.

That's just a ridiculous myth that the wiki latched onto. Trolls do not "encounter a few problems later on". They are one of the strongest species for the entire duration of the game.

Well, doesn't "a few" mean that they only run into a small number of problems even later on? I'm pretty sure that they are relatively harder to play later on compared to the utmost easiness of pre-lair game. That doesn't mean that they can't be easy until the end compared to other species, they just aren't that insanely easy. I'm not a big fan of trolling ([/pun]) so feel free to correct if I'm wrong.

Edit. Let's not always assume the worst!

[and into]

Anyway, to actually get back to the whole game design thing (since we are in GDD not Advice)

Gunthar: I think there is probably going to be a consensus that Trolls do not need a buff, and should stay as they are. Also most of the buffs you propose except (I suppose) one higher regen are very minor. +1 AC and marginally better apts aren't really going to have much of an impact. You could give +1 to all aptitudes on Felids, for instance, and although that's obviously an improvement, it wouldn't alleviate the very many problems that species *does* encounter!

[Implojin]

When looking and playing with trolls I noticed that they appear to become somewhat underpowered (falling behind) from about level 5 and up.

I think it's a great feature that trolls have a simple early game and encounter a few problems later on.

they just aren't that insanely easy. I'm not a big fan of trolling ([/pun]) so feel free to correct if I'm wrong.

oh, GDD.

Minmay's post is spot on.

Claws 3, innate regen, and +3 HP aptitude are amazing for the entire game. Trolls casually destroy all threats in DCSS, from earlygame all the way through a 15 rune. There is no power falloff with the race as it currently exists.

It is a bit ridiculous to suggest that they need buffing, and in fact they could probably stand to be nerfed to "only" Claws 2.

[savageorange]

^ To move to a more productive subject, how do you not die? I mean, Trolls definitely have great -offensive- capabilities, but I usually die because I don't manage to shore up their defenses well enough. (also, because I'm nearly always hungry, I feel compelled to fight more enemies than I would prefer, so I can eat them)

[bcadren]

Having played a lot of trolls, I'll agree; they do tend to be suddenly harder around mid lair when their low apts (except UC) start to be enough of a disadvantage to slow their growth and keep their skill below enemies. I don't know how many trolls I lost to spiny frogs and hydras, due to low AC and in general frogs swarming me. Unlike most races I will say Orc is far easier than Lair for them (only summoned sixfirhy's are faster so you can run faster, most orcs are low enoughed AC to die quickly in UC) I also think being at this disadvantage for awhile is acceptable, as they are the easiest race to get to the lair. That said I did create a viable troll spellcaster/transmuter despite the -5 apt. http://pastebin.com/BmuXnZcF [Yes I did kill the Lernaean Hydra in melee in statue form.]
That said; I would support the last two parts of the proposal and also suggest the claws levels, but do it even later like:

Start with Claws 1; Regen 1; Tough Skin 1 in the beginning (not so extremely tab throw everything until Lair)
Increase to Tough Skin 2 at level 4.
Increase to Claws 2 at level 8.
Increase to Regen 2 at level 12.
Increase to Tough Skin 3 at level 16.
Increase to Claws 3 at level 20.
Increase to Regen 3 at level 24.

That would level them out a bit so it's not so TAB THROUGH EVERYTHING easy Pre-Lair; and so they get later advantage to make up for the plain bad apts.

[and into]

^ To move to a more productive subject, how do you not die? I mean, Trolls definitely have great -offensive- capabilities, but I usually die because I don't manage to shore up their defenses well enough. (also, because I'm nearly always hungry, I feel compelled to fight more enemies than I would prefer, so I can eat them)

First, I'm legitimately curious to watch a player who has hunger problems with any species in Crawl, Trolls included, except perhaps for certain specific combinations (Spriggan Healer or something? Never ran a Spriggan Healer, just the first thing that came to mind. Then again Spriggan Berserkers are actually quite good so idk). As Troll, you'll eat perma-food in Crypt and maybe on those undead-heavy floors that sometimes spawn early on. Certain places in extended too, obviously. But where and why else? Obviously a ration here or there just due to quirky luck or whatever, and fruit tactically if you accidentally let yourself slip into non-berserk range under Trog or amulet... But I always end up with huge food stockpiles on more than 9 out of 10 characters, Trolls included, and even the other less than 10 percent of the time I have large (not huge, but large) excess food hoard. And that's not counting food in stores that I don't bother buying, just the crap I've (auto) picked up. Eventually I turn off autopickup of rations, if I remember to do that. (I forgot those sorts of things a lot.)

As for defenses, Trolls certainly have a different feel than other characters in the mid-game. Your high HP and regeneration play a much larger part of your defense, proportionally, than it is for other characters. Once you adapt to that, Trolls "click" somewhat. You also want to leverage their easy early game into the middle game as best you can. Take advantage of what spawns, be very generous (always, but especially for Trolls) in your consumables use, be more willing to swap things out for tough foes—true for everyone, just sometimes more needed for Trolls. Stay very focused and disciplined in terms of what skills you train. Once you start getting enough large rocks to spam throwing them at things.... Oh man it is beautiful. Large rocks kind of crushes (literally) the argument that Trolls get weak in mid-game. "Oh hey awesome ranged attack option that requires no skill, how you doing?"

[and into]

Having played a lot of trolls, I'll agree; they do tend to be suddenly harder around mid lair when their low apts (except UC) start to be enough of a disadvantage to slow their growth and keep their skill below enemies. I don't know how many trolls I lost to spiny frogs and hydras, due to low AC and in general frogs swarming me. Unlike most races I will say Orc is far easier than Lair for them (only summoned sixfirhy's are faster so you can run faster, most orcs are low enoughed AC to die quickly in UC) I also think being at this disadvantage for awhile is acceptable, as they are the easiest race to get to the lair. That said I did create a viable troll spellcaster/transmuter despite the -5 apt. http://pastebin.com/BmuXnZcF [Yes I did kill the Lernaean Hydra in melee in statue form.]
That said; I would support the last two parts of the proposal and also suggest the claws levels, but do it even later like:

Start with Claws 1; Regen 1; Tough Skin 1 in the beginning (not so extremely tab throw everything until Lair)
Increase to Tough Skin 2 at level 4.
Increase to Claws 2 at level 8.
Increase to Regen 2 at level 12.
Increase to Tough Skin 3 at level 16.
Increase to Claws 3 at level 20.
Increase to Regen 3 at level 24.

That would level them out a bit so it's not so TAB THROUGH EVERYTHING easy Pre-Lair; and so they get later advantage to make up for the plain bad apts.

Everything you say demonstrates Trolls do not need to change, but then you say you support the proposal to buff them.... Why? And a lot of other species have this tiered system of break points where they get bonuses. You are suggesting nerfing Trolls early and buffing them later, in other words, making them more like all the other species that get stuff down the line. And everything you said in the first part of your post demonstrates that the late-game buff is not necessary anyway...

(At least Ds has this somewhat randomized, that helps a lot, I would actually like to see Draconians have some variation in terms of when they molt, etc., I don't like the hard-and-fast break points for a number of reasons, but /derail.)

Don't fix what isn't broken, and especially do not fix what isn't broken by adding unnecessary bells and whistles.

[Kalma]

For me mid and late game troll got easier after I saw someone good use a shield. I had just assumed that a shield would ruin UC.

[Gunthar]

I'm wondering why trolls have even bad aptitudes in skills they should be good from their natural living styles. This why I request the increase of the aptitudes as listed in the original post. The AC buff is very small and the reg buff is coming much later. Regeneration does not help a lot inside fights. Except if you can kite the monsters around.

[DracheReborn]

One thing I don't like about Trolls, is that you're basically railroaded into UC with them, Claws 3 is that strong. But then, that's the same sort of problem that Mf Polearm apt or Ogre M&F apt has. I'm sure there are people who play non-UC Trolls, but that would be like a self-imposed challenge condition.

If there's one change I would like to see in Trolls, it would be to tone down their offense a bit and buff their defenses to compensate. A lot of players already opt to do just that by equipping shields on their UC trolls. If the base troll were a little bit better rounded, then maybe the decision to go shields won't be so popular.

[sanka]

I'm not a very good player, so please somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

I think that the feeling that Trolls are easier early game than in late game comes from bad strategy. For example the fact that they have excellent unarmed and bad defenses does not mean you need to train unarmed to 20 before training any defensive stats. I would train dodging early (before Lair, after a little bit of UC) on every Troll unless I've found a nice dragon armour. Your strategy has a really large impact on how easy is the middle game.

[stickyfingers]

I'm wondering why trolls have even bad aptitudes in skills they should be good from their natural living styles. This why I request the increase of the aptitudes as listed in the original post. The AC buff is very small and the reg buff is coming much later. Regeneration does not help a lot inside fights. Except if you can kite the monsters around.

Because aptitudes aren't relative to general experience gain, but absolute. We can assume that trolls learn slowly in general, and that could translate to -3 in all aptitudes for example. And you can, and definitely should, kite the most monsters around as a troll.

[Turukano]

I'm not a very good player, so please somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Ok, I'll do.

I think that the feeling that Trolls are easier early game than in late game comes from bad strategy.

Trolls are one of the easiest species until you reach lair, in my opinion the easiest one.

For example the fact that they have excellent unarmed and bad defenses does not mean you need to train unarmed to 20 before training any defensive stats.

UC is different from other weapon skills. It starts weak (in the beginning trolls are strong with 0 UC because of their claws) but gets very powerful at max skill. Although I'm not sure if a general one-skill-strategy is advisable it's interesting for a troll up to a certain point.

I would train dodging early (before Lair, after a little bit of UC) on every Troll unless I've found a nice dragon armour.

I wouldn't. Evasion is not only affected by dodging but also by Dex (low on trolls unless you go with Chei) and somewhat by size (large on trolls).

[Turukano]

For me mid and late game troll got easier after I saw someone good use a shield. I had just assumed that a shield would ruin UC.

UC is much better without shield, you're right. With a nice dragon armour (mottled, fire e.g.) you might consider dropping your shield. But as long as AC is low and a shield is your only defense, I'd sacrifice some offense - just for surviving.

[Turukano]

Regeneration does not help a lot inside fights.

It does. When you're low on HP in a fight (with a foe of normal speed) you can just walk away and will be on full health soon.

Another thing: being poisoned is less threatening when you're a troll.

[Gunthar]

I'm wondering why trolls have even bad aptitudes in skills they should be good from their natural living styles. This why I request the increase of the aptitudes as listed in the original post. The AC buff is very small and the reg buff is coming much later. Regeneration does not help a lot inside fights. Except if you can kite the monsters around.

Because aptitudes aren't relative to general experience gain, but absolute. We can assume that trolls learn slowly in general, and that could translate to -3 in all aptitudes for example. And you can, and definitely should, kite the most monsters around as a troll.

Kiting = less offensive potential. Bad aptitudes equals in lesser potential at higher levels. I guess that a -2 aptitude (+50% xp usage) will probably result in about a skill value of about 14 or 15 while a +0 aptitude skill is with the same amount of xp being at rank 20. The 5 or 6 skill points less can probably offset the nice damage bonus trolls are receiving.

The best thing would be to test the proposed changes in a trunk. For a troll it is still difficult to get defensive equipment due its limitations. One slot (gloves) can not be filled at all and three more are severly limited (body, head and boots). And if using weapons and shields they give up their unarmed attacks. Do not forget that they can not enchant their claws.

[Gunthar]

Regeneration does not help a lot inside fights.

It does. When you're low on HP in a fight (with a foe of normal speed) you can just walk away and will be on full health soon.

Another thing: being poisoned is less threatening when you're a troll.

I agree with regen helping while being poisoned.
The walk away will work only if the enemy have the same speed and is just being able to fight in melee range. An enemy with additional ranged abilities and weapons will still get you if you can not get out of LOS.

[Turukano]

For a troll it is still difficult to get defensive equipment due its limitations.

That's a point - until you find a shield or a mottled/fire DH. Shields are not uncommon and with some luck you'll get a mottled DH on something like D:13.

Do not forget that they can not enchant their claws.

They don't need to do so! Claws 3 and UC 27 is one of the best available "brands".

[stickyfingers]

I'm wondering why trolls have even bad aptitudes in skills they should be good from their natural living styles. This why I request the increase of the aptitudes as listed in the original post. The AC buff is very small and the reg buff is coming much later. Regeneration does not help a lot inside fights. Except if you can kite the monsters around.

Because aptitudes aren't relative to general experience gain, but absolute. We can assume that trolls learn slowly in general, and that could translate to -3 in all aptitudes for example. And you can, and definitely should, kite the most monsters around as a troll.

Kiting = less offensive potential. Bad aptitudes equals in lesser potential at higher levels. I guess that a -2 aptitude (+50% xp usage) will probably result in about a skill value of about 14 or 15 while a +0 aptitude skill is with the same amount of xp being at rank 20. The 5 or 6 skill points less can probably offset the nice damage bonus trolls are receiving.

The best thing would be to test the proposed changes in a trunk. For a troll it is still difficult to get defensive equipment due its limitations. One slot (gloves) can not be filled at all and three more are severly limited (body, head and boots). And if using weapons and shields they give up their unarmed attacks. Do not forget that they can not enchant their claws.

-2 vs 0 aptitude rarely means more than 1 level of difference below 20, 5-6 never happens. And boots are disallowed, not restricted. They can't enchant their claws, but with high UC and Blade Hands they can deal more damage over time than any weapon.

[Lasty]

Let me chime in with all the people saying trolls are fine (or over-powered) as-is.

* Trolls have pretty much the best weapon in the game: UC w/ Claws 3. The damage they do is completely nuts, and most monsters die in a very small number of turns next to a troll. If the Troll gets UC to 27, very few monsters will last two full turns.
* Troll defenses are bad, but you can offset that by putting some points into Dex and training Dodging, and eventually getting a suit of MDA or FDA. A shield can be useful as well.
* Troll aptitudes are bad, except in the three things that matter most for them: HP and UC. Since they don't need much more than that, it doesn't matter that their other skills take a little more XP to progress.
* Trolls don't just have a huge HP pool, they also regenerate that pool quickly. If things start going bad, you can walk away from almost all monsters in the game and get back up to full health.
* Like most species, trolls have full access to consumable resources and gods, which can be leveraged to offset any of their weaknesses when necessary.

The main danger to trolls is that players who feel too invincible will get themselves into trouble by tabbing.

Put another way, trolls are so good that I managed to ascend my first try at a TrCK. Arguably, being with Xom may have made things easier by forcing me not to play too carelessly.

[Kate]

Moved to advice.

[earLOBe]

The problem with trolls as they stand is that they have too big of a hump around Lair when enemies like hydrae start to hit hard, but they don't yet have a dragon armour. Perhaps after an item destruction nerf we can move mottled dragons higher in the Dungeon/Lair. Or give troll leather from the Mines a boost for Trolls to make up for them not needing the regen.

EDIT: Not to say that trolls are 'hard' at that early-to-mid point, but that they have an annoying time there that creates challenges unlike those they face in the rest of the game. Unfortunately, these aren't fun challenges. If there was a way to make 'glass cannon with no magic' more interesting without breaking flavour (like increased evo probably would), I'd be all for that. As it is, though, trolls have a very bizarre progression where they're easy at the start, fragile in the early-mid game, then strong again by the end and quite limited in the extended endgame.

[Sar]

Having problems with hydras is not something unique to Trolls. Solutions are usual: wands and walking away, though you can add large rocks to that if you mugged a cyclops on your way to the Lair.

[Klown]

Having problems with hydras is not something unique to Trolls. Solutions are usual: wands and walking away, though you can add large rocks to that if you mugged a cyclops on your way to the Lair.

Some players like to play with a Knight's Honor. No running away or using dark arts(wands).
So gonna add 'God abilities' to this list on getting rid of hydras.

[and into]

Lasty pretty much hit the nail on the head.

I'd only add that some of the aptitudes can be misleading. Their size bonus for shields basically translates into like a +3 for regular or +6 or something insane like that for large shield aptitude, despite what it says on the tin. As for "Throwing -1," that doesn't matter, unless you want to go heavily paralysis blowguns, which you can do I suppose but isn't necessary and doesn't jive with Trolls' other capabilities. This is because large rocks don't need high throwing skill. Fighting has a bit of a malus that maybe seems unthematic, but you get insanely good returns on fighting due to your really high natural HP, and the more you stack on through Fighting, the more your HP regen goes up (since it operates in part based on percentage of total HP). When you factor all that in, the poor aptitudes even in those core areas basically prevent Trolls from being even more insanely overpowered. The bad aptitudes *look* bad but in practice they are needed to offset Trolls' crazy species advantages.

Because of this thread I'm running a Troll Monk of Chei (a great deal of fun) right now who got shafted on D13 right before I was about to enter Lair. Got dropped on D16—that's a very scary shaft drop! Ended up just clearing D15 and D14, without having done Lair. Trolls are sick.

As for advice: Cyclops start becoming pretty common just a bit after the average spawn depth of Lair. If I didn't start with large rocks (Troll Hunter) or get lucky finding some before lair spawns, I would consider doing the first few floors of Lair, then dip a bit further into dungeon to see if I can cobble together large rocks. Obviously if the dungeon seems particularly dangerous (I'd probably go back to Lair if I hit a wide-open floor plan for instance), don't do this, but getting large rocks is amazing.

Hydras die, or at least flee, reliably when you hit them with three large rocks. Those fast dangerous bastards, mambas and spiny frogs, are harder to hit, but you are capable of one-shotting them or, more commonly, weakening them up enough with a single shot that even a glancing blow from your claws, after they have closed in, will send them packing.

The really dangerous, common critters in Lair, and this is true for *every character in the game* and not just Trolls, are spiny frogs, mambas, and blink frogs. If a lot of death yaks spawn on a level it does become quite dangerous, but otherwise I tend to lump Hydras, Elephants, and Death Yaks together under one tier of "potentially dangerous but highly escapable." I've lost an order of magnitude more characters to the bad frogs and snakes than I have to Hydras. Those are the guys you should be worried about most in Lair.

I'd say around 5 or 6 in throwing is worth it, I'm sure some go for a bit more, others perhaps less. Throwing 6 gives very good results with large rocks and poisoning/curare through blowgun when that's more appropriate. But I don't run *tons* of Trolls and minmay and others probably have that down to more of a science than I do.

If you have large rocks and needles, you can save wands for where you really need them: AoE attacks for when big packs of enemies (especially fast enemies) threaten to swarm you.

[Turukano]

they're easy at the start,

Agreed.

fragile in the early-mid game,

Partially agreed. Main problem is in my opinion mid game when yaktaurs appear.

then strong again by the end

Agreed.

and quite limited in the extended endgame.

Get a troll to the extended with UC 27, statue form and stone claws - and then let's talk about quite limited, alright?

[MoogleDan]

For what it's worth, I beat my first troll a few games back, and after reading this thread went through the Wiki article for a thorough gutting. Too little, too late perhaps, but oh well. If any of you would be so kind as to give it a once over and point out any blatant fallacies or things left out, I'd appreciate it:

http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Troll

[earLOBe]

they're easy at the start,

Agreed.

fragile in the early-mid game,

Partially agreed. Main problem is in my opinion mid game when yaktaurs appear.

then strong again by the end

Agreed.

and quite limited in the extended endgame.

Get a troll to the extended with UC 27, statue form and stone claws - and then let's talk about quite limited, alright?

Don't get me wrong, I love how great high-level trolls are at killing stuff. It's like getting perfect demonspawn mutations for UC (robust, claws, etc). I'm thinking more of how almost all the extended endgame is corpseless, pushing trolls towards feeding-gods and hoarding permafood (and, incidentally, away from Fedhas, whom I'd say would be quite a good troll god otherwise). I don't see it as a problem with trolls so much as with corpseless branches exacerbating the larger issues with chunk eating.

[Turukano]

I'm thinking more of how almost all the extended endgame is corpseless, pushing trolls towards feeding-gods and hoarding permafood

That's right. Trolls need permafood in the extended, especially in tomb. That's why it's strongly recommended not to eat permafood in early and mid game.

[Turukano]

If any of you would be so kind as to give it a once over and point out any blatant fallacies or things left out, I'd appreciate it:

http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Troll

Wiki mentions lots of gods for trolls. Any reason why TSO and Ash are missing?

I hope minmay will forgive me that I enjoyed trolls with TSO in the extended. And Ash is still my favourite god for trolls and will boost their magic skills significantly.

[MoogleDan]

If any of you would be so kind as to give it a once over and point out any blatant fallacies or things left out, I'd appreciate it:

http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Troll

Wiki mentions lots of gods for trolls. Any reason why TSO and Ash are missing?

The only reason was that I wrote a crazy long article and they slipped my mind Added entries for both.

[and into]

I'm thinking more of how almost all the extended endgame is corpseless, pushing trolls towards feeding-gods and hoarding permafood

That's right. Trolls need permafood in the extended, especially in tomb. That's why it's strongly recommended not to eat permafood in early and mid game.

Exactly right, and your insane carrying capacity makes that no problem at all. Plus when you are in extended you've gotten so much experience that even Troll aptitudes allow for some pretty insane combinations of brute force and spell casting.

Again, if there is anyone worried about Trolls having a "hunger problem"... On this Troll I'm running, I just now *almost* had to eat my first ration. When I came back to D16 (which I hadn't fully cleared after landing there from the shaft trap), after having cleared Orc and Lair. I had a long run of corpse-less enemies on a semi-explored level that I fast-traveled to. I got to near starving but then a weak orc pack brought be back up to engorged, just before I was about to chow down. So I still haven't eaten a single piece of perma-food and my Troll is very well established and entering the mid-game.

Trolls do not have hunger problems. Period.

Wiki mentions lots of gods for trolls. Any reason why TSO and Ash are missing?

The boost to stats and enemy detection is nice on any and every character, plus scrying is very powerful and clarity + see invisible is a nice bonus too. Trolls like all that as much as anyone else, perhaps even a bit more so than others, as spell casting can come on line much faster for an Ashy Troll.

The only problem with going Ash is that Trolls generally want to go unarmed, and one of the easiest ways to start getting piety with Ash early on is cursing your weapon. So you can go unarmed with Ash and get lots of benefits eventually, but getting the piety so that the benefits start happening may be a problem. Cursing a robe won't get you "partially bound," so you won't get piety from that alone. On the other hand, Trolls have the easiest opening of any species, so choosing a god that's more of a late-bloomer is not as bad of a move as it would be for most characters. Just hope you find a cloak and/or cap, or shield, or enough jewelry that you can start getting Ash's benefits.

[some12fat2move]

For what it's worth, I beat my first troll a few games back, and after reading this thread went through the Wiki article for a thorough gutting. Too little, too late perhaps, but oh well. If any of you would be so kind as to give it a once over and point out any blatant fallacies or things left out, I'd appreciate it:

http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Troll

For gods, I think you should just list Oka/Trog/Makhleb/Nemelex. Those are straightforward and strong. The others can be very strong, but make things more complicated (the people who have the know-how to make the most of Kiku or Ash while being a troll probably do not need a guide).

[MoogleDan]

For what it's worth, I beat my first troll a few games back, and after reading this thread went through the Wiki article for a thorough gutting. Too little, too late perhaps, but oh well. If any of you would be so kind as to give it a once over and point out any blatant fallacies or things left out, I'd appreciate it:

http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Troll

For gods, I think you should just list Oka/Trog/Makhleb/Nemelex. Those are straightforward and strong. The others can be very strong, but make things more complicated (the people who have the know-how to make the most of Kiku or Ash while being a troll probably do not need a guide).

I'd really want to include Elyvilon in there, as trolls can completely railroad over the hunger costs of her abilities.

[Turukano]

The only problem with going Ash is that Trolls generally want to go unarmed, and one of the easiest ways to start getting piety with Ash early on is cursing your weapon. So you can go unarmed with Ash and get lots of benefits eventually, but getting the piety so that the benefits start happening may be a problem.

Sure? Curse a shield instead. This is from a TrMo who was especially lucky to start with ** piety:

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 8921 | D:8      | Acquired Ashenzari's fourth power

[XuaXua]

Then again Spriggan Berserkers are actually quite good so idk).

I was led to believe you're not supposed to berserk as a SpBe, unless you really need to get out of whatever situation you're in (run away). I think you're only supposed to use BiA and the blessing/enhancement.

Hence, not so much on the food consumption side, and much more on the stabbing side.

[and into]

The only problem with going Ash is that Trolls generally want to go unarmed, and one of the easiest ways to start getting piety with Ash early on is cursing your weapon. So you can go unarmed with Ash and get lots of benefits eventually, but getting the piety so that the benefits start happening may be a problem.

Sure? Curse a shield instead. This is from a TrMo who was especially lucky to start with ** piety:

  Code:

 8921 | D:8      | Acquired Ashenzari's fourth power

Right, exactly, that's why I said that if you start with a shield or luck into one, you won't have a problem getting Ash's piety. Same for a cloak or cap. Ash is still a great choice for Troll (Monk or otherwise), the only specific consideration I think is the lack of weapon curse. That might matter, or might not, depending on your starting background and what you find before you come across Ash's altar.

Also in general (not just for Ash-worship) Fighter is great background choice for Troll specifically because you get guaranteed shield at start. Monk is a great choice also, naturally, but if people are experiencing problems with defense I'd recommend trying Troll Fighter. Starting with slightly less UC really doesn't matter on Troll, at all, so basically you are trading immediate ** piety for your choice of god for starting with a shield.