Midgame Advice?

[neverstatic]

Long time lurker. So, I've been playing Crawl since 0.6.0 and still haven't beat it. Not a complaint; I enjoy a fiendishly challenging game. What I want to know is "What am I doing wrong?"

I've tried SpEn of Okawaru. Got a few to Lair/Hive, but not much further.

I've tried NaWz of Sif Muna. Lair/Hive/Orc, not much further. Though I did have one die in the 0.7 Slime Pits. <Shudder>

I've tried SESu. Died a couple stupid deaths, but I could definitely see getting one to Lair with luck.

My luck with noncasters/melee hybrids has been less stellar.

Tried a few MfCr of Okawaru, but found that I tend to run out of steam against packs. My buffs wears off; I die.

I'm hoping the community can help me step up my game. I've got my early game figured out. Pick some class with guaranteed access to a high powered early spell (Ensorcelled Hibernation, Mephitic Cloud, Spammals) and use/abuse that spell to the fullest. Use other spells to cover weakness (Confusion for SpEn, Slow for NaWz).

But then as I'm getting to the mid-game, training Fighting for HP, my foolproof trick stops working. My SpEn runs into a Frost Giant. My SESu is ambushed by an invisible Erolcha.

So, what's the midgame about? What are the tricks that make it more survivable? Should my casters be wearing heavier armor (I normally stick to robes or leather)? Should I start training fighting earlier (usually around XL 10)?

Any advice appreciated?

[lucy_ferre]

Try a SpEn of Nemelex. Only sacrifice corpses for decks of summoning. The sheer cheesiness of that combo should get you an easy win. Mid-game: Explore the dungeon, until it feels too difficult. Then, explore the easier branches, except the bottom levels.

[Tiber]

I'm not sure you're asking the right questions. Disclaimer: I am far from pro myself. Furthest I've gotten is vaults.

What skills do you tend to train the most?
What enemies give you the most trouble?
What would you blame most of your deaths on?
What is your plan of attack for difficult enemies?
When do you start using consumables, and you do you go for first?
How do you try to escape?
What order do you usually approach things in, and what area gives you trouble?

I think the thing is, you're concentrating on your setup, while I think it's more about playstyle. Heavier armor makes things worse for casters, so I wouldn't go for any armor with more than -2 EV, unless those spells are really reliable. A spriggan should be able to get away from a frost giant easily under normal circumstances.

[neverstatic]

What skills do you tend to train the most?
What enemies give you the most trouble?
What would you blame most of your deaths on?
What is your plan of attack for difficult enemies?
When do you start using consumables, and you do you go for first?
How do you try to escape?
What order do you usually approach things in, and what area gives you trouble?

  Code:

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.8.0-a0-5620-g273693b character file.

34173 Bilbo the Jinx (level 13, -3/63 (65) HPs)
             Began as a Spriggan Enchanter on Mar 10, 2011.
             Was a High Priest of Okawaru.
             Slain by Rupert
             ... wielding a +1,+1 great mace of crushing
              (16 damage)
             ... on Level 3 of the Lair of Beasts.
             The game lasted 04:37:37 (32852 turns).

Bilbo the Jinx (Spriggan Enchanter)                                                                                                                Turns: 32852, Time: 04:37:38

HP  -3/63 (65)   AC  6     Str  8      Exp: 13/47329 (1220), need: 15720
MP  28/35        EV 27     Int 21      God: Okawaru [*****.]
Gold 1043        SH  0     Dex 16      Spells: 10 memorised,  7 levels left

Res.Fire  : + . .   See Invis. : +    G - +0,+4 dagger (venom)
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : . .  P - +2 robe {MR}
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .    (shield restricted)
Res.Acid. : . . .   Res.Corr.  : .    C - +0 wizard hat {Int+3} {god gift}
Res.Poison: .       Clarity    : .    b - +1 cloak {MR}
Res.Elec. : .       Spirit.Shd : .    (gloves unavailable)
Sust.Abil.: + .     Stasis     : .    (boots unavailable)
Res.Mut.  : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .    I - amulet of the gourmand {unknown}
Res.Rott. : .       Levitation : .    A - ring of sustain abilities
Gourmand  : +       Ctrl.Flight: .    v - ring of protection from fire

@: very quick, extraordinarily resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely stealthy
A: unfitting armour, see invisible, herbivore 3, speed 3, slow metabolism 3
a: Heroism, Finesse, Renounce Religion

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 c - a +1,+0 dagger of flaming (quivered)
 G - a +0,+4 dagger of venom (weapon)
 R - a +1,+1 dagger of venom
 T - a +2,+2 elven dagger
Armour
 b - a +1 cloak of magic resistance (worn)
 C - a +0 wizard hat of intelligence (worn) {god gift}
 P - a +2 robe of magic resistance (worn)
Magical devices
 e - a wand of polymorph other (3) {unknown}
 q - a wand of disintegration (8)
 w - a wand of hasting (0)
 E - a wand of cold (13)
Comestibles
 j - 5 bread rations
Scrolls
 h - 2 scrolls of curse armour {unknown}
 i - 2 scrolls of immolation {unknown}
 o - 2 scrolls of blinking {unknown}
 K - 2 scrolls of fear {unknown}
Jewellery
 r - an uncursed amulet of rage
 v - a ring of protection from fire (left hand)
 y - an uncursed ring of teleportation
 A - a ring of sustain abilities (right hand)
 F - an uncursed ring of wizardry
 I - an amulet of the gourmand (around neck) {unknown}
Potions
 a - a potion of berserk rage
 m - 2 potions of speed
 W - 2 potions of healing
Books
 f - a book of Air   
 
 You had 1220 experience left.

   Skills:
 + Level 5 Fighting
 - Level 5 Short Blades
 - Level 1 Throwing
 + Level 12 Dodging
 + Level 10 Stealth
 - Level 12 Stabbing
 + Level 2 Traps & Doors
 + Level 13 Spellcasting
 - Level 14 Hexes
 + Level 5 Charms
 - Level 2 Summonings
 - Level 3 Translocations
 - Level 4 Ice Magic
 - Level 1 Air Magic
 + Level 1 Evocations


You had 7 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Success   Level  Hunger
a - Ensorcelled Hibernat  Ice/Hex        #######      Excellent   2    None
b - Confuse               Hex            #######..    Excellent   3    None
c - Repel Missiles        Air/Chrm       #####.....   Excellent   2    None
d - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          Excellent   2    None
e - Summon Butterflies    Summ           ####.....    Excellent   1    None
f - Apportation           Tloc           #####.....   Excellent   1    None
g - Enslavement           Hex            #######..    Excellent   4    None
h - Invisibility          Hex/Chrm       #######..    Very Good   6    Honeycomb
i - Haste                 Chrm           #####....    Cruddy      6    Honeycomb
j - Flight                Air/Chrm       #####.....   Very Good   4    None

Or how about this guy:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.8.0-a0-5620-g273693b character file.

5192 Bilbo the Blackguard (level 10, -5/44 HPs)
             Began as a Spriggan Enchanter on Mar 9, 2011.
             Was a Priest of Okawaru.
             Hit by a javelin thrown by Urug (17 damage)
             ... on Level 10 of the Dungeon.
             The game lasted 01:21:24 (14168 turns).

Bilbo the Blackguard (Spriggan Enchanter)                                                                                                          Turns: 14168, Time: 01:21:24

HP  -5/44        AC  6     Str  5      Exp: 10/6654 (1025), need: 3433
MP  21/28        EV 24     Int 18      God: Okawaru [***...]
Gold 535         SH  0     Dex 18      Spells:  5 memorised, 11 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : +    a - +1 dagger (curse)
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : . .  b - +1 robe (curse)
Life Prot.: + . .   Conserve   : .    (shield restricted)
Res.Acid. : . . .   Res.Corr.  : .    (helmet restricted)
Res.Poison: .       Clarity    : .    J - +2 cloak of Brilliance {+Inv rN+ MR}
Res.Elec. : .       Spirit.Shd : .    (gloves unavailable)
Sust.Abil.: . .     Stasis     : .    (boots unavailable)
Res.Mut.  : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .    z - cursed amulet of rage
Res.Rott. : .       Levitation : .    (no ring)
Saprovore : . . .   Ctrl.Flight: .    (no ring)

@: very quick, very resistant to hostile enchantments, very stealthy
A: unfitting armour, see invisible, herbivore 3, speed 3, slow metabolism 3
a: Heroism, Renounce Religion, Evoke Berserk Rage, Evoke Invisibility

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - a cursed +1,+1 dagger (weapon)
Armour
 b - a cursed +1 robe (worn)
 J - the +2 cloak of Brilliance (worn) {+Inv rN+ MR}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Dungeon)   
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It increases your resistance to enchantments.
   It lets you turn invisible.
Magical devices
 l - a wand of confusion (9) {unknown}
 q - a wand of healing (2)
 D - a wand of digging (10) {unknown}
Comestibles
 o - 2 bread rations
Scrolls
 c - 2 scrolls of magic mapping {unknown}
 d - 3 scrolls of identify
 k - 2 scrolls of teleportation
 r - a scroll of blinking
 v - a scroll of recharging {unknown}
 A - a scroll of detect curse
 B - a scroll of remove curse
Jewellery
 f - an uncursed amulet of warding {unknown}
 z - a cursed amulet of rage (around neck)
 C - an uncursed ring of sustain abilities {unknown}
Potions
 e - a potion of porridge
 g - a potion of agility {unknown}
 h - 3 potions of heal wounds
 n - 2 potions of brilliance {unknown}
 p - a potion of speed
 w - a potion of mutation {unknown}

 You had 1025 experience left.

   Skills:
 + Level 1 Fighting
 - Level 3 Short Blades
 - Level 1 Throwing
 + Level 8 Dodging
 + Level 6 Stealth
 - Level 10 Stabbing
 - Level 1 Traps & Doors
 + Level 8 Spellcasting
 - Level 8 Hexes
 + Level 8 Charms
 - Level 3 Ice Magic

You had 11 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Success   Level  Hunger
a - Ensorcelled Hibernat  Ice/Hex        #####..      Excellent   2    None
b - Confuse               Hex            ######...    Excellent   3    Strawberry
c - Sure Blade            Hex/Chrm       ######....   Excellent   2    None
d - Corona                Hex            ######..     Excellent   1    None
e - Invisibility          Hex/Chrm       ######...    Poor        6    Ration

I think the thing is, you're concentrating on your setup, while I think it's more about playstyle. Heavier armor makes things worse for casters, so I wouldn't go for any armor with more than -2 EV, unless those spells are really reliable. A spriggan should be able to get away from a frost giant easily under normal circumstances.

I think I get what you're saying. I need to take things more carefully on particularly difficult fights. Use potions/scrolls more liberally. Have a better escape plan. Flee rather than pick fights.

Ok, so I guess I change questions. What are the recommended escape hatches?

Let's use SpEn as an example.

* Blink (book or scroll always seems to turn up)
* Spriggan speed

In one of those morgue files I was killed by a Berserk Rupert. I couldn't outrun him. Blink, Teleport scroll and run till it takes effect?

I guess probably the thing that is killing me is not taking the enemies seriously till it's too late. I guess I should work on that.

[mageykun]

Please put char dumps in the [code][/code] tags so your posts are readible. I fixed that for you.

Back on topic: unctontrolled blink is always a useful spell to have. In can get you out of an otherwise unsurvivable situation, even if you can't control the destination. Combine with a ring of teleport control and you get semi controlled blink instead- it lets you pick a direction! (but not the endpoint). Scrolls of blink give you full control.

Tele is a good escape mechanism, but it does take a few turns to kick in. The key is to learn to recognize a desperate situation early, not when you're one turn from death.

The best solution for uniques like rupert is stealth. Discover them, don't wake them up, drop a travel exclusion, and leave. Avoid things that can kill you until later.

Escape hatches down should only be used in absolute emergencies. In addition to stairs being slow (enemies can hit you while you're using stairs), you get dumped on a completely new floor, in a potentially worse situation, with no stairs to retreat though. Hatches up are slightly safer, but you can get killed by them. Interesting fact: every floor has a "hatch spot" that all hatches leading to the floor will dump you in.

The character you posted looked pretty good to me. A few pointers: you almost never ever want the traps and doors skill off. Let it train itself, it's worth it. I'd turn short blades on again, right now your attack speed was probably slow or average, you should train weapon skills till you get to quite fast, or very fast (hit @ to see your attack speed).

[Lantier]

I agree 100% with Mageykun's point re leaving certain uniques alone. Some uniques are usually OK to attack when you meet them. Many are not, so you should back off and use x and e to set an exclusion around them. Be careful fighting anywhere near that exclusion zone. You could still wake them up...

With experience, you learn which uniques (and which "common" enemies) to avoid. Use the Knowledge Bot and Wiki too. Look up your opposition. Just be careful. The info is not always completely up to date. Some evil minded dev may have recently added like, say +10 speed, to that baddie you are about to pick on...

Use Wands freely. There are plenty lying around + recharge scrolls and shops. Same with scrolls and potions. Seriously. When you get lower in the dungeon, scrolls and potions become less reliable because enemies start destroying them with their attacks... So even if you don't use them, you're gonna lose them.

I'd say you should consider the following escape tools:

Blink
Teleport
Speed Potion/Haste Wand
Inviso Potion/Wand
Fog Scroll
Fear Scroll
Summon Butterflies/Spammals
Slow/Confusion attacks
Wand of Digging/Disintegration
Repel/Deflect Missile
Regeneration/Healing while running/waiting for Teleport to kick in
Levitation/Flight (only if the terrain is appropriate)
Equipping a +AC/+EV weapon while running/healing/waiting to Teleport

Oh, and as for berserk enemies, yeah, they are faster than a Spriggan. An unhasted Spriggan moves about 60% faster (per the KnowledgeBot). A berserked enemy moves 100% faster, so running will not work unless you are very close to escape and they are far away.

[Tiber]

Rupert is nasty. TBH, I hate berserking uniques, since for them it has almost no downsides. It's hard to outrun them, and there's not much strategy besides "kill them as fast as possible" or have some other way to escape.

Ideally, in a situation like that, you want to escape. Rupert is one of those guys you leave alone and come back for. Berserk hastes him, and the only way to outrun a hasted enemy is to be hasted yourself. In a pinch, you can also berserk yourself to run away for short distances.
Blink + Tele is a good strategy. And if you're low on scrolls, don't forget about the ring of teleportation.

Aside from what mageykun suggested (which I agree with), I'd focus a little less on hexes. The problem is, anything powerful enough to be threatening usually has high enough MR to resist most hexes (which I think could stand to be balanced better).

[mikee]

All of your scrolls were unidentified, including 2 blinking scrolls that you need for situations like this. You could have also drunk one of your speed potions and walked away from berserking rupert.

So yes, it seems like you're building your characters in a decent way - you just need to: a) be better about (pseudo)identifying consumables and b) make sure to use them when you need to.

Good luck.