Using Conjure Ball Lightning

[Utis]

I have experimented with it in wizmode and, for the life of me, I can't figure out how and when to use it effectively and efficiently.

It looks absolutely great on paper: It looks like a spell requiring unsual tactics with a strong emphasis on positioning and it fits very well into the theme of the air school. But besides being unpredictable and dangerous, it's damage per MP ratio is unconvincing, especially (but not only because) it is both dangerous and unpredictable. I also tried combining it with Controlled Blink, but seeing the results, that's 14 MP that I'd rather spent on Lightning Bolts.

From what I can see, CBL is efficient and effective precisely in situations when I don't want to use it: When I'm in a room full of very strong monsters, i.e. when I should either read a ?teleport and get the hell out, or retreat & lure into a corridor & LB.

Maybe in situations like ths:

  Code:

         ▒·······▒············◼··
         ▒·▒▒▒▒··▒············◼··
         ▒·▒▒▒▒◼◼▒············▒▒▒
         ▒·▒▒··················▒
         ▒·▒▒··················▒
      ▒▒▒▒·▒▒······C·C·········▒
▒▒▒▒▒▒▒·····▒·····CC···········▒
············'·········C········▒▒
············'···@··············◼·
▒▒▒▒▒▒▒·····'··················◼·
      ▒▒▒▒▒·▒··················▒▒
          ▒·▒▒▒▒▒◼▒▒▒▒▒◼▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒
          ▒·▒   ▒·▒   ▒·▒       
          ▒·▒   ▒·▒   ▒·▒       
▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒·▒   ▒·▒   ▒·▒       
············▒   ▒·▒   ▒·▒       
············▒▒▒▒▒·▒▒▒▒▒·▒       


But even then, rather than spending 7MP on unreliable results, I'd get into a corridor without delay and start casting LB.

Am I missing something?

[Volteccer_Jack]

I think you're underestimating the offensive utility, but your assessment is basically correct: the spell is too dangerous to be useful the majority of the time. Inner Flame has very similar problems.

[Utis]

I think you're underestimating the offensive utility, but your assessment is basically correct: the spell is too dangerous to be useful the majority of the time. Inner Flame has very similar problems.

Thank you for confirming! Yes, I can easily imagine that I'm underestimating CBL's damage potential; the psychological effect is possibly that with that much hazzle and danger, I'd expect it's damage output more to be in the department of "What the ...? Holy ... HOLY CRAP!!! Dead, dead, they're all dead, dead".

[Siegurt]

Inner Flame has very similar problems.

Inner flame has no such problems, Inner flame isn't unpredictably dangerous. CBL is always unpredictably dangerous, Inner flame is always predictable, and dangerous only if used incorrectly (Which admittedly is easy to do if you're unfamiliar with it).

[and into]

Am I missing something?

Conjure Ball Lighting is fun. That's something.

It is usually not, all things considered, a very good use of 7 spell slots. But it is a very fun spell to fart around with. That's okay, I think. If someone wants to tweak the spell (along similar lines as the static discharge tweaks over the last few versions) fine, but I think it is fine that some spells are underpowered with respect to similar levels from another school. It isn't like the book that CBL appears in doesn't have other EXTREMELY powerful spells in it. (Book of Sky is an excellent book, conjure ball lightning notwithstanding.)

[Sandman25]

Maybe Xom should be amazed by the spell (if he is not)

[Lasty]

If you resist electricity, it does pretty good damage per MP, and it hits a lot of enemies at once (potentially). It can be an effective tool in some situations. It's pretty fun against the landing party on V:$, though probably non-optimal for a lot of characters.

[Utis]

Am I missing something?

Conjure Ball Lighting is fun. That's something.

It is usually not, all things considered, a very good use of 7 spell slots. But it is a very fun spell to fart around with.

Alright, nothing wrong with that. After all, people do enjoy Xom. It's not something for me, though. For me it would be fun only if it were also a good use of seven spell slots. I wish the spell were either safer to use or more predictable, for instance by changing the movement and behaviour of the ball lightnings. Because it is a great and unique spell design.

***

Right, rElec. Good point. It does happen.

[rebthor]

I've had two ideas to try to improve CBL.
1) Make it so you can "aim" them by weighting the direction the CBL should go. This isn't guaranteed to get them exactly where you want them but only in the vicinity. For example, in your picture you'd aim NE and get a better than random chance they'd go that way.
2) Leave the completely random movement alone, but give it smite targeting.

Compared to other level 7 spells, it's clearly weak. I'd rather have Borg's or controlled blink by far and in the Cj space, OoD gives a much better chance at actually killing what you want dead and is only single school and ring of flames acts as an enhancer, protects you from other clouds, damages anything next to you and makes it easier to kite things.

[and into]

(Perhaps this should be moved to GDD?)

Not that your ideas are bad, rebthor, but I think smaller changes could make CBL a lot more useful, basically just do what was done with static discharge, which isn't an awesome spell but fills its role quite well now with its buffs over the last few versions. If you make CBL a level 6 air/conjurations spell, and make it so that the self-damaging component (while remaining potentially risky just less so) is cut by X% while damage against enemies stays (roughly) the same, the spell might see a lot more use and still not be overpowered. What seems distinctive about CBL is precisely how random it is, so even though it is underpowered now I think it would be better to buff it in other ways while keeping the somewhat random and risky feel of it, rather than making it more accurate. Of course right now it is way too risky for most characters, especially for a level 7 spell with the kind of investment that requires.

[Azrael]

Why don't we just get rid of the automatic confusion effect for the conjured lightning? Seems like it would make it a hell of a lot more effective (easier to direct/less likely to kill you) without sacrificing flavor or adding a lot of work for devs.

[Baldu]

Ummm lightning balls at level 6 with lower self damage i would learn as often as possible. It's one of those spells i find really fun and effective (use it while kiting, or in corridors, or small rooms, or set off balls with thrown/ranged weapons/IMB/magic dart/LRD explosion/penetration bolts or javs) but the self damage is really high even through rElec and the high noise means it has to be carefully used. While each ball only does a small amount of self damage though rElec, 2-3 casts of many balls can cost an uncomfortably large portion of HP from lots of characters.

I would probably start using it again if with rElec equipped each ball did max 3 self damage, even if it stayed at level 7. I've caused myself too many problems with it's current damage to continue using it as it is.

Balls are also awesome for setting up the mood for special occasions. Cast haste, cast balls 4 times, quaff all the mutation potions, this improves the experience by a large degree. Try it out!

edit: the most fun thing ever would be to be able to set off lightning balls with shatter, sadly it doesn't currently work. Booohohohohohohooooooo :*(

[Amnesiac]

Seriously though, how the heck can you use this spell safely and why is it even in the game? A high damage AoE spell with random targeting - some compare it to inner flame because of it's dangerousness but it's not even nearly as safe. After learning this spell once and seeing what it does I've never learned it again...

[Baldu]

It does a really large amount of damage per MP, it's fun and pretty, it's unusual and challenging to use properly.

I've learned it dozens of times when I was more interested in experimenting with all the cool things in the game, but now that i really try to win almost every game i start and have reasonably good overall knowledge of the game, I choose to be more efficient with my spell slots.

[and into]

It does a really large amount of damage per MP, it's fun and pretty, it's unusual and challenging to use properly.

I've learned it dozens of times when I was more interested in experimenting with all the cool things in the game, but now that i really try to win almost every game i start and have reasonably good overall knowledge of the game, I choose to be more efficient with my spell slots.

That's basically my feeling as well. Which is why, if something is going to be changed about the spell, I'd like to see the randomness and riskiness kept (as this is distinctive) but have the numbers tweaked so that it is *somewhat* more competitive with other spells. Nothing huge, just tweaked so that one doesn't feel like he or she is actively gimping his character by taking it. Not all spells need to be powerhouses, but I think the mechanic of the spell, how it works, is quite fun to play with. However, I would like it to be... if not a GOOD idea, at least LESS of a BAD idea to roll with CBL from time to time. Hence my comparison to Static Discharge pre-buff. Admittedly, getting a spell in a starting book up to snuff is more important than things like ball lightning. Still, an improvement here would be nice, it is a lot of fun but very underused.

[Amnesiac]

It should be at least adequately useful for a lv7 spell...

[dpeg]

Just took this to ##crawl-dev and discussed it with elliptic.

1. The spell is symmetric: the player gets the same damage as monsters do. This kind of consistency is useful (think of Inner Flame and Fireball), so we don't want to touch it. This means: no cap or reduction on self-damage.

2. More balls means more damage, but also more self-damage. Unclear if this is a buff (elliptic thinks so).

3. We opted for level reduction to 6. If this change doesn't make it in right away, it's because of the 0.13 feature freeze. If it isn't in a bit later, then because we've forgotten. Please ring a bell should that happen

Thanks for discussion.

[and into]

Totally going to suicide a High Elf once the change makes it in and I give lvl 6 CBL a whirl, so thanks in advance for that!

[SchwaWarrior]

CBL will be a Level 6 spell instead of Level 7?? You know what, I like this a lot. Orb of Destruction is Level 7 and IMO it's superior to CBL in terms of power and safety, so when offered both I always pick OoD over CBL. This minor change makes much more sense. (It's kinda like when they changed Fireball to be Level 5 instead of 6, with Bolt of Fire remaining at Lv6.) Thank you, and I endorse this change!

I also want to say that I love CBL as long as I have rElec. Without it, I die to it a lot. Otherwise, it's awesome laying waste to the Orc Mines, the Spider Nest, Vaults:5, pretty much everything. Not quite as much holyshitawesome as Tornado, but still awesome.

[Baldu]

Thanks for the good posts guys! Guess we'll see if it's enough to get the spell some play, but I honestly don't think so since it doesnt address it's 2 real problems: self damage and loud noise. I have cleared all areas post lair/orc (yeah, i've cleared elf/slime/vault/hells/pan/zot/tomb/ziggurats with it) with it multiple times and the spell level never was an issue, it is easier to cast then ice/poison cloud after all even with 1 more spell level.

Safe and optimal play with it is to lure monsters into corridors and get them to suicide on the balls. But it's safer and more effective to use bolt of fire/cold or cloud or poison/ice spell to do this same thing. The fun thing to do with it is to cast it twice when a pack of enemies happens and then move back a little while they walk through that but unless i'm very lucky i'll eat many of the detonations and the spell will have cost me 14MP and 25%HP through rElec.

A better example would be to compare it to chain lightning vs hell spawns. Hell drops a group on my face (and i have rElec), if i cast chain lightning 3 times the enemy group will be (almost) dead and i'll be missing 10-30%HP from the enemy hits and 24MP, but cast ball lightning 3 times and the enemy group will be (almost) dead and i'll be missing 50-75%HP and 21MP.

The noise is a big drawback already, I expect that the proposed change will change nothing in it's use since it doesn't address the issues it has. I guess we can wait and see before making more comments, but as a player that has used the spell hundreds of times what would make me use it again is if it did less damage to myself, even if the cost was having fewer balls created on cast (so lots less total damage output).

In any case, thanks for taking the time to consider our feedback and look at this small issue!

edit: other serious request, please make shatter trigger the balls! as far as i know it's the only non elemental spell that doesn't make them blow up (even fire/ice storms non elemental damage do it), and it only happens once every million games to have both spells, it would just be a stupid but fun gimmick to use once

[rebthor]

It could be level 4 and I don't know if I'd take it based on the reasons that Baldu said. The risk/reward is way too high, especially with the chance of a chain reaction right at the start of the spell when the balls are closest to you the highest.

[Utis]

I'd love to wait and see. A drop from lvl 7 to lvl 6 means that the spell becomes available much earlier. And thus the damage is relatively even more devastating. If it is possible -- with extreme precaution and strategic planning -- to use the spell safely at all ... that might actually be interesting: You'd be running around with a weapon you're yourself afraid to use, except in specific circumstances.

[rebthor]

WOULD YOU LIKE TO PLAY A GAME? (Y/N)

[mattlistener]

other serious request, please make shatter trigger the balls! as far as i know it's the only non elemental spell that doesn't make them blow up (even fire/ice storms non elemental damage do it), and it only happens once every million games to have both spells, it would just be a stupid but fun gimmick to use once

Be aware, "Ball Lightning" monsters are insubstantial. Shatter does no damage to insubstantial entities.