No weapons, no pickup, autotraining

[Sandman25]

I want to play a pure caster without any weapons/throwing, without picking up any items and with automatic training but I am not sure what the best combo is. I tried a DrWz but it died on level 4 to a pack of Orcs (Mephitic Cloud was at high failure rate so I didn't learn it). What would you choose and how would you play it?

[Galefury]

Maybe Cj? Or IE and then go with unarmed? Unarmed Wr? Or an Enchanter? Generally it sounds a bit unpleasant.

[Sandman25]

Maybe Cj? Or IE and then go with unarmed? Unarmed Wr? Or an Enchanter? Generally it sounds a bit unpleasant.

No, I don't want to use unarmed or stabs. The only way of killing things is spells.

[Amnesiac]

By not picking up items you mean learning spells from Veh?

[Sandman25]

By not picking up items you mean learning spells from Veh?

Yes, I was going to use Vehumet. If books from Sif Muna were put into inventory automatically, I might consider him also.

[Galefury]

May I recommend dpeg's bookless conduct then? There's a YAVP about it I think. It sounds significantly more fun.

[Amnesiac]

May I recommend dpeg's bookless conduct then? There's a YAVP about it I think. It sounds significantly more fun.

I think it's just a painful start and no other difference.

I think you won't find a better race for an itemless mage than Dr, because they're tough and have normal aptitudes.

[Sandman25]

I think it's just a painful start and no other difference

I don't hope to win with the combo but I think it can be fun because it encourages unusual tactics. For example, luring Eustachio into a corner and surrounding him with my Imps was fun despite that heart-breaking moment when Eustachio was almost dead and attacked by 3 Imps while I had about 12 hp and attacked by 2 rats while standing on the upstairs waiting for my Imps to kill Eustachio.

[Sandman25]

May I recommend dpeg's bookless conduct then? There's a YAVP about it I think. It sounds significantly more fun.

Thanks, I'll try to find it.

Edit. I found that YAVP. That's very different from what I want. I don't want to attack monsters with non-spells. Maybe SpVM or SpWz could be better than DrWz, it is hard to wait for MP to replenish in the middle of a fight.

[Galefury]

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9042

[Amnesiac]

I'd still go with DE, probably, I'm just a fan of them and I like how they don't forgive mistakes of being hit more than they should. Looking at draconians' HP it would probably much easier for me to win them with the way I play, but I just can't bring myself to like this idea.

[Sandman25]

I'd still go with DE, probably, I'm just a fan of them and I like how they don't forgive mistakes of being hit more than they should. Looking at draconians' HP it would probably much easier for me to win them with the way I play, but I just can't bring myself to like this idea.

Dr get free AC and more HP, it looks like Fighting is not trained at all unless I melee monsters which I am not going to do.
I am trying SpWz currently but DEWz is next in my list. I want Wz because it has Blink and Repel Missiles which are not granted by Vehumet

[dpeg]

May I recommend dpeg's bookless conduct then? There's a YAVP about it I think. It sounds significantly more fun.

I think it's just a painful start and no other difference.

You said something similar also in my thread but I have trouble seeing where you come from. Not being able to select your spells, and in particularly forfeiting any support spells should make a difference. Also, as I mentioned in the YAVP, the start is not painful if you choose a good species.

[siprus]

I think Felid might just as good as spriggan if you decide to go without items.

[Amnesiac]

You said something similar also in my thread but I have trouble seeing where you come from. Not being able to select your spells, and in particularly forfeiting any support spells should make a difference. Also, as I mentioned in the YAVP, the start is not painful if you choose a good species.

It seems so to me, why bother with diving and not having any spells in the beginning. And sandman wants a pure mage, so meleeing with 0 skill doesn't seem like such a good idea. Starting stats have some impact on casting, too. Even if I'm not allowed reading books, I would still just start a Wz and throw the starting book away. A big chunk of Int and spellcasting looks very attractive to me.

[hopelessDelvder]

DECj of Veh really doesn't need weapons, in my current, I'm lvl 14 and have only killed things with my dagger by accident.

[Sandman25]

After losing SpWz to volcano and FeWz to Orc Priest (I have little exp with Fe) I want to play something less fragile. I really like one play style characters since I play DCSS when I am really tired so I cannot afford thinking about skills to train After my DDBe dies I will try a DeWz.

[Amnesiac]

I wonder how you will deal with OoFs without rF. Vortices from Fire Storm seem to be the only way to protect you somehow, but one mistake and you are dead. It's probably not a good idea to use auto-explore in zot with this conduct as it's possible that an OoF is waiting behind any corner. I'm talking about zot, because other parts of the game seem to be manageable without equipment if you have some good conjurations.

[Sandman25]

I wonder how you will deal with OoFs without rF. Vortices from Fire Storm seem to be the only way to protect you somehow, but one mistake and you are dead. It's probably not a good idea to use auto-explore in zot with this conduct as it's possible that an OoF is waiting behind any corner. I'm talking about zot, because other parts of the game seem to be manageable without equipment if you have some good conjurations.

That SpWz almost died 3 times to poison so ZoT does not worry me much yet At least Sp has SInv, DE can be killed in Spider Nest easily when all MP are depleted by an invisible monster.

[Sandman25]

Now I see that this type of game is very good for training tactical skills. What does my DEWz usually do when I see an Orc Priest in the open terrain? Just cast Magic Dart and hope for the best. If something goes wrong, I can use healing/speed/cBlink/teleport etc. But that does not work when you have no consumables. You should always retreat. If there is another Orc Priest just behind the first one, my xl 10 DEWz dies (if you forget about Mephitic Cloud which I did)

Automatic training is tricky:
1) I usually always have Repel Missiles active (the game stops when the spell is about to expire so I can cast it again). It does not work with auto training because Charms and Air get about 25% exp each. That's very bad because Repel Missles is the only charms spell in the game for no pickup character.
2) Dodging is not trained if you are not attacked. So you should take some "safe" risk. I didn't bother to do it so my Dodging stopped training at about 5 when I was able to avoid staying in melee range. Centaurs still train your dodging but it is basically a dangerous training plus you train useless charms because of RMsl.
3) Translocations is trained with every Blink despite the spell is already at 1% failure rate. Just wasted XP.

  Code:

 + Level 5.3 Dodging
 + Level 4.0 Stealth
 + Level 13.8 Spellcasting
 + Level 9.4 Conjurations
 + Level 2.7 Charms
 + Level 1.7 Summonings
 + Level 3.3 Translocations
 + Level 3.0 Fire Magic
 + Level 2.2 Air Magic
 + Level 0.9 Poison Magic

  Code:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Magic Dart            Conj           ####         1%          1    None
b - Call Imp              Summ           ####......   1%          2    None
c - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ####......   1%          2    None
d - Conjure Flame         Conj/Fire      ######..     1%          3    None
e - Mephitic Cloud        Conj/Pois/Air  #####...     1%          3    None
B - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    None

[Siegurt]

I usually always have Repel Missiles active (the game stops when the spell is about to expire so I can cast it again). It does not work with auto training because Charms and Air get about 25% exp each

So this is a bit silly. Keeping RM active all the time is just burning time, Mana, food, and is anything but required.

If you are auto exploring or manually exploring with shift, the game will stop whenever a ranged creature comes into view, if you are hitting one key at a time, you still have the opportunity to act whenever a creature comes into view.

When a creature comes into view, if it's something that does ranged damage cast RM, if it's not, don't; Pelt it, or run away or whatever is appropriate, there's virtually no tactical advantage to keeping RM up 24x7

[Sandman25]

So this is a bit silly. Keeping RM active all the time is just burning time, Mana, food, and is anything but required.

If you are auto exploring or manually exploring with shift, the game will stop whenever a ranged creature comes into view, if you are hitting one key at a time, you still have the opportunity to act whenever a creature comes into view.

When a creature comes into view, if it's something that does ranged damage cast RM, if it's not, don't; Pelt it, or run away or whatever is appropriate, there's virtually no tactical advantage to keeping RM up 24x7

Monsters can have opportunity to act before character. Hunger is not a problem because I start doing it when spell in question is hungerless. Mana is not usually a problem either. It can be a problem when I keep Deflect Missle, Swiftness and Flight active. Time is a problem indeed and it was one of the reasons (minor one though) why I switched to ToME4 where sustained spells exist.

[dck]

It's ridiculous to keep situational buffs up just because without caring about your current situation.

[Siegurt]

It can be a problem when I keep Deflect Missle, Swiftness and Flight active. Time is a problem indeed and it was one of the reasons (minor one though) why I switched to ToME4 where sustained spells exist.

So let me get this straight, you are taking a bunch of useless actions, which take you a bunch of extra time, and you don't like that, so rather than not do them, you switched to playing another game?

[Amnesiac]

Well, why not, don't you want to have your buffs up all the time without recasting? I didn't like tome4 though..

[Siegurt]

Swiftness I could see keeping active all the time, although personally I use it primary as an escape mechanism. Keeping Flying active all the time is not useful, you know when you need to fly; A lake or pool of lava never sneaks up on you (I suppose you might be keeping it active for that once-in-a-blue-moon chance that you'll encounter jorgun, however you're more likely to encounter a titan (or Gastronook) and take extra damage because of it. Deflect Missiles is arguably useful as you *might* take a shot that you'd otherwise not take, however I maintain that DM/RM/Stoneskin/Phase Shift/OA are good to cast when you're about to get into a tangle, keeping them up all the time when they're no critters around is paranoid and akin to taking every weapon you ever find all the way back to the lair, because some creature might pick it up and attack you with it.

[Amnesiac]

You want permanent flight in shoals at least... Having RMsl up all the time is useful at least and by the time I was doing Hells I naturally(meaning that the gaming experience itself made me want to do this) kept DMsl up on my DEWz all the time. Sandman can't learn flight and DMsl with this conduct, though.

[Sandman25]

It can be a problem when I keep Deflect Missle, Swiftness and Flight active. Time is a problem indeed and it was one of the reasons (minor one though) why I switched to ToME4 where sustained spells exist.

So let me get this straight, you are taking a bunch of useless actions, which take you a bunch of extra time, and you don't like that, so rather than not do them, you switched to playing another game?

Nope. I hate black boxes so I switched to a game where developer does not decide for me what I need and what not and thus displays almost everything I may ever need. Sustained spells were just one of the cherries on the cake.

[Sandman25]

Swiftness I could see keeping active all the time, although personally I use it primary as an escape mechanism. Keeping Flying active all the time is not useful, you know when you need to fly; A lake or pool of lava never sneaks up on you (I suppose you might be keeping it active for that once-in-a-blue-moon chance that you'll encounter jorgun, however you're more likely to encounter a titan (or Gastronook) and take extra damage because of it. Deflect Missiles is arguably useful as you *might* take a shot that you'd otherwise not take, however I maintain that DM/RM/Stoneskin/Phase Shift/OA are good to cast when you're about to get into a tangle, keeping them up all the time when they're no critters around is paranoid and akin to taking every weapon you ever find all the way back to the lair, because some creature might pick it up and attack you with it.

Flying improves Stealth score. Of course you cannot see it in the game usually.

[Sandman25]

Ask yourself a simple question: would you avoid having Swiftness/Repel Missiles/Flight always on if it required a single mouse click/key press for the whole game?

[dck]

Well having access to all of the game's numbers is making you worry about things like keeping flight up at all times instead the terrain or enemies demand it or when you're trying to stack stealth to stab something dangerous so I guess that the overall impact of the black box is positive, since most players don't waste their time like that. The bonus doesn't show in-game because of how minimal it is.
Some spells would be good to have permanently on (and for these there already is a way to keep them permanently on), some others like swiftness are definitely not something you want on at all times.

[Sandman25]

Well having access to all of the game's numbers is making you worry about things like keeping flight up at all times instead the terrain or enemies demand it or when you're trying to stack stealth to stab something dangerous so I guess that the overall impact of the black box is positive, since most players don't waste their time like that. The bonus doesn't show in-game because of how minimal it is.
Some spells would be good to have permanently on (and for these there already is a way to keep them permanently on), some others like swiftness are definitely not something you want on at all times.

If it was true, fsim would never be created.
What's better - Executioner's Axe of Freezing or Battle Axe of Electrocution and by how much? Is it true at every Axes/Fighting skill level? Is it true for monsters with every HP/AC/EV?

[BlackSheep]

Ask yourself a simple question: would you avoid having Swiftness/Repel Missiles/Flight always on if it required a single mouse click/key press for the whole game?

Swiftness kills stealth and trap detection. Flight is largely useless, and does make you vulnerable to rare Airstrikes. If a species offers permaflight, I'll make use of it, but if I had to pay some sort of cost to sustain it, I wouldn't. Repel Missiles I'd like to see updated to be reciprocal.

[Sandman25]

Swiftness kills stealth and trap detection. Flight is largely useless, and does make you vulnerable to rare Airstrikes.

Yes, I know it. I usually use RMsl/DMsl only. Back in 0.12 I had permanent Swiftness when Traps skill was trained to 20+.

[Hurkyl]

however I maintain that DM/RM/Stoneskin/Phase Shift/OA are good to cast when you're about to get into a tangle, keeping them up all the time when they're no critters around is paranoid

It's not paranoia because you know they're out to get you. It's optimal to cast these spells when you're alone because:

• It doesn't consume 10 auts (each) to cast them them during an encounter when you really want them
• You have more mana to use during an encounter, because some of it has recovered since you last refreshed your buffs

the only exceptions that spring to mind would be

• You don't have them hungerless yet. (but arguably, there's enough food so that doesn't matter)
• There is some odd happenstance where you can't afford to spend a few dozen extra Auts in (apparent) safety (e.g. being in a race to find food before you starve to death )
• You make a habit of letting critical buffs get near timing out and don't re-refreshing at the beginning of an encounter if necessary

(although I haven't used Phase Shift; I was under the impression that was too short lived to be kept up continuously?)

Well having access to all of the game's numbers is making you worry about things like keeping flight up at all times instead the terrain or enemies demand it or when you're trying to stack stealth to stab something dangerous so I guess that the overall impact of the black box is positive, since most players don't waste their time like that. The bonus doesn't show in-game because of how minimal it is.

In other words, the interface makes it annoying to play optimally, so you advocate obscuring optimal play so that people aren't even aware of it to be able to consider if it's worth the annoyance. (instead of, e.g., suggesting making the interface less annoying)

Some spells would be good to have permanently on (and for these there already is a way to keep them permanently on), some others like swiftness are definitely not something you want on at all times.

What spells are you referring to? I can't think of any spell I've ever cast that I would like to refresh every time I hit full MP that the game has given me an option (that I'm aware of) to keep it permanent. (I play 0.12 if it matters)

[Sandman25]

RMsl/DMsl are more useful to fragile characters with high EV who often happen to be spellcasters with high MP regeneration rate. If you use CBoE any way, it is plain stupid not to have permanent RMsl/DMsl/Ozo's Armour/Stone Skin/Condensation Shield etc (unless you are lazy/tired of key presses).

Some time ago I modified settings to pause the game when MPs are full in order to renew Necromutation (it's not a good idea to be in living form in some branches). That would not be needed if there was an indicator of approximate number of turns remaining before spell expiration.

[Siegurt]

Flying improves Stealth score. Of course you cannot see it in the game usually.

That was removed in trunk.

[Baldu]

Flight makes you immune to shafts.

edit: for content related to thread: you might want to try troll air elementalist. You should be able to consistently make it out of the early game with some good tools, and if behumet gifts you great spells might maybeee even have a shot at winning.

edit 2: or play heal cat. It used to be one of the easy combos while being one of the least fun combos. Maybe with the chunk changes you won't hopelessly hope to die and never sufficiently succeed.

[BlackSheep]

Flying improves Stealth score. Of course you cannot see it in the game usually.

That was removed in trunk.

No it wasn't. Improved carrying capacity was.

[dck]

If it was true, fsim would never be created.
What's better - Executioner's Axe of Freezing or Battle Axe of Electrocution and by how much? Is it true at every Axes/Fighting skill level? Is it true for monsters with every HP/AC/EV?

Both are good weapons and will kill people just dandy as long as you've invested in axes and by the time you're invested in axes enough that you can swing the bigger axe well you should use that.
Some people strive to find optimal numbers for everything and concentrate all their energy in this while giving very little thought to other much more important parts of crawling. And crawl really isn't about stacking every single piddling advantage you have and then chucking it against the wall to see what happens.
Showing new players every number is bad because it makes them give much too importance to these numbers while disregarding other more important problems.

[Hurkyl]

Some people strive to find optimal numbers for everything and concentrate all their energy in this while giving very little thought to other much more important parts of crawling.

There are so many things wrong with this.

If people did have a finite amount of thought available to spend, then it would be far better to actually give these people the numbers so they can find their answers with very little thought, allowing them to spend it on other things.

But really, a person who gives little thought to much more important things but is sparked to wonder which of their weapons is better is still going to give little thought to much more important things if they didn't have that spark.

The reason people spend effort on questions like these is that they are often relatively straightforward problems that have objective answers, and some people enjoy the act of simulation and modeling. If I had the numbers I could simulate the weapons against a variety of typical opponents and get a conclusive answer about which weapon is better -- even better if Crawl will do that for me!

For comparison, I can't do that with most questions; e.g. whether it's better to go with a two-hander or stick with sword-and-board style. (except in the special case that you have a great one-hander that outdamges (or at least does comparable damage to) all of the two-handers that are are a reasonable option)

Or for another tack... Crawl is supposed to be fun, right? Some people have fun knowing that some weapons are better than others in some situations (or always), and get frustrated when that knowledge is withheld from them -- doubly so if they find out people are actively opposing their efforts to gain knowledge.

[Amnesiac]

I think knowing the exact numbers for everything would make another Diablo I of this game.

[dck]

you have the right kind of fun or go home.

[Sandman25]

Flight makes you immune to shafts.

edit: for content related to thread: you might want to try troll air elementalist. You should be able to consistently make it out of the early game with some good tools, and if behumet gifts you great spells might maybeee even have a shot at winning.

edit 2: or play heal cat. It used to be one of the easy combos while being one of the least fun combos. Maybe with the chunk changes you won't hopelessly hope to die and never sufficiently succeed.

1) I don't use anything except spells so I think being a Tr does not help much.
2) I am really bad at He, my best He died in Lair.

[Sandman25]

Showing new players every number is bad because it makes them give much too importance to these numbers while disregarding other more important problems.

New player ignores more important problems because he does not see them.
If game displayed "Training Axes currently increases damage by 10% per skill level", "Training Armour is useless with your current armour items unless you train it to skill level 5", "Training Dodging is useless with your current body armour unless you train it to at least skill level 12", new player could play much better.

[Baldu]

Flight makes you immune to shafts.

edit: for content related to thread: you might want to try troll air elementalist. You should be able to consistently make it out of the early game with some good tools, and if behumet gifts you great spells might maybeee even have a shot at winning.

edit 2: or play heal cat. It used to be one of the easy combos while being one of the least fun combos. Maybe with the chunk changes you won't hopelessly hope to die and never sufficiently succeed.

1) I don't use anything except spells so I think being a Tr does not help much.
2) I am really bad at He, my best He died in Lair.

I cant agree with 1) . Troll helps an early caster because of their special food thing, their auto healing, their high hp, and they can cast the low level spells quick enough. I can imagine a swift vehumet troll gifted (fireball/ice cloud/bolt of xyz) being able to go places!

As for 2) , was just a suggestion. I don't enjoy healer at all, but the power is undeniable. For crazy shenanigans you could do troll air elementalist to get a relatively easy lair+orc, and only start training invoc once you have reliable lightning bolt, and then have your big healing gun and your small lightning gun for the rest of the game.

In all cases, keep up appraised, this is pretty interesting, i think im gonna this challenge!

[Amnesiac]

How about a HEAE. Good stats and almost all utility spells you need. Flight and swiftness will really help.

[Sandman25]

I will try TrAE and HEAE. So far SpWz felt the strongest (due to SInv and high EV) but it can have problems casting level 9 spells because of hunger.

[Sandman25]

TrAE does not look good. There are too many miscasts and too few MP so I am basically running in circles waiting for MP to replenish. Sometimes I am lazy and I am just standing adjacent to a monster who beats me. About 30% exp going into Dodging is really unusual.

[Siegurt]

Tr don't need no stinking attack spells, Tr beat things up with claws, even if they do start with an AE book. Even if you don't train any unarmed combat at all, a Troll unarmed will do more damage than shock.

Seriously try it, things will just die for the first three levels, use the AE book to get swiftness and repel missiles later, at the beginning just claw the whole dungeon to pieces.