Abusing ashenzari

[siprus]

I'm wondering if it's possible to abuse ashenzari skill change by crosstraining. I noticed that if i start with short blades and later switch to long blades I think i get all the XP i spent in short blades back! This allowes me to multiply my xp gain if i first train short blades. Then i train longblades for half the cost, then i move skill from shortblades to longblades (or other skills)

Is this correct or is there some part of coding which prevents this?

[prozacelf]

You just flat out lose 10% of any xp transferred via Ash. I have never tried it for something like SBlades to LBlades but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that cross-training bonuses don't apply to Ash's skill transfer either.

At any rate the ability is structured so that you get a net xp loss on your skills. There might be edge cases where you essentially break even but I don't think you can effectively gain xp in that manner.

[Siegurt]

You do not get all the XP back, Ash takes a chunk off the top of any skill transfer.

[ajon]

How much do you gain via the +4 bonus for cross training? If you maxes Sblades, then maxed Lblades with the bonus then transferred the SBlades skill entirely into something different, even if you lost say 10% off the top, would you have made out through the +4 aptitutde?

[Amnesiac]

Logically speaking, you gain double exp at 0 or lower apts, but lose only 10% via transfer, so this might work, right?..

[ackack]

What transfers is exp, not skill, so going from a high aptitude to a low aptitude means you lose a lot of skill in the former and gain a little in the latter. The idea of trying to pump up a cross-trained skill on the cheap to then transfer the exp at the regular worse aptitude is interesting. But I think everybody is right that the friction makes that a losing proposition. I think it would only be breakeven even without the friction. What will happen is that the cross-training bonuses will bite you in reverse on the way down --- as you pump out of short blades, it will go into cross-training mode and drain xp super fast, meaning that you're getting half credit for the xp you originally put in anyway.

If that last bit is not true and Ash reskilling doesn't reset the cross-training somehow, then yes there's likely a problem here.

[Siegurt]

It looks to me like it's not really abusable, you do get the crosstraining bonus when transferring to, but you also *lose* additional crosstrained points when transferring *from* a skill that was increased by crosstraining.

If you go back and forth between short and long blades, you appropriately lose 10% on each cycle.

[Amnesiac]

but you also gain +100% base exp from crosstraining. So this is what happens: lets say you train sblades and longblades at the same time. You gain 66.6% to SB and 33.3% LB is doubled by crosstraining, so you theoretically gain 133.3% exp then after you train both to 20, you transfer 90% of SB to LB, loosing 10% of those 66%, so that means that you make ~25% more exp. This doesn't sound like an easy thing to abuse and it works only on crosstrainable skills, though.

[crate]

you don't gain xp by crosstraining and then transferring
this is specifically protected against in the code

[Siegurt]

but you also gain +100% base exp from crosstraining. So this is what happens: lets say you train sblades and longblades at the same time. You gain 66.6% to SB and 33.3% LB is doubled by crosstraining, so you theoretically gain 133.3% exp then after you train both to 20, you transfer 90% of SB to LB, loosing 10% of those 66%, so that means that you make ~25% more exp. This doesn't sound like an easy thing to abuse and it works only on crosstrainable skills, though.

It doesn't work that way. If you gain extra skill points from crosstraining, you lose the extra skill points before you transfer them to another skill. (Which may or may not then gain extra skill from crosstraining)

[Amnesiac]

you don't gain xp by crosstraining and then transferring
this is specifically protected against in the code

though so. but look, I don't transfer the skill I crosstrained but the skill that allows crosstraining, is it prevented too?

[siprus]

you don't gain xp by crosstraining and then transferring
this is specifically protected against in the code

Interesting. Once I first trained short blades to 6. Then i trained long blades to 14 (with Ashenzari the actual skill was higher ofc) I have done this plenty of times and i don't actually ever remember my long blades skill actually going down. Of course this might be due to my piety with Ashenzari rising or 6-0 XP change being minimal compared to xp i lose at longblades level 14 :/

[omegonthesane]

How about using a manual to train a skill up to <whatever> and only invoking Ash when the manual explodes and the aptitude drops? Surely, that'd give you a 180% return on the original XP investment (100xp *2 for temporary attribute boost *0.9 because Ashenzari Tax) - or is that protected against too?

[BlackSheep]

It looks like if you transfer from Short Blades to Long Blades, the transferred skill points are multiplied by the standard cross training bonus (less 10% Ash tax) as long as SB is higher than LB.

If you took advantage of a cross training bonus to raise a skill, when you transfer out of that skill, the cross training bonus is lost. (Which is I what I think crate was saying.)

[daggaz]

Seems still mildly useful to me, if you do the following:

Play a kobold fighter, start with short blades with no intention to go stabbing.

Train shortblades up to 16 (easy to do with kobold aptitudes). Make use of the many, many shortblades in early dungeon that are often branded.

Find a good longblade, usually some time just after lair.

Crosstrain longblades, snag that nice bonus. Continue boosting shortblades if you need a higher mindelay for say, a triple sword.

Pick a magic school or something and transfer shortblades xp into it.

You still lose the 10%, but you got to step thru shortblades in the early game to great benefit, which makes training longblades significantly cheaper by the time you need them, and then you get to not have crappy shortblades on your non-stabber.

[ebarrett]

all this effort being put into trying to break the game would certainly be better used learning the game

[ajon]

It seems like everyone is focusing on putting a skill into its cross training counterpart. My question is if you train long blades, then use cross training bonus to train shortblades naturally, what happens if you transfer the longblades skill into say dodging, does you short blades skill now drop since you really only have X amount of exp into it and its not longer being multiplied, or does it stay at the skill it was at. IF this is the case, you made out since you spent less training short blades and only really lost 10% by transferring the longblades into a totally different skill. it seems if you go back and forth between transferring L and S blades to each other, it would most likely be a losing proposition.

[Siegurt]

It seems like everyone is focusing on putting a skill into its cross training counterpart. My question is if you train long blades, then use cross training bonus to train shortblades naturally, what happens if you transfer the longblades skill into say dodging, does you short blades skill now drop since you really only have X amount of exp into it and its not longer being multiplied, or does it stay at the skill it was at. IF this is the case, you made out since you spent less training short blades and only really lost 10% by transferring the longblades into a totally different skill. it seems if you go back and forth between transferring L and S blades to each other, it would most likely be a losing proposition.

This is a way to use Ash's transfer skill to your advantage, your short blade skill doesn't drop once you transfer the points from long blades to dodging, and you only lose the 10% transfer tax moving long blades to dodging, and your short blades does get trained at the reduced rate.

Of course if you subsequently decide to move your skill points from short blades elsewhere, the shortblade skill point loss comes at the higher "crosstrained" rate, so moving from say short blades to mace at that point would only get you the number of points in mace you would have gotten if you'd trained mace normally instead of short blades with no crosstraining bonus, less the 10% ash tax.

[Siegurt]

Seems still mildly useful to me, if you do the following:

Play a kobold fighter, start with short blades with no intention to go stabbing.

Train shortblades up to 16 (easy to do with kobold aptitudes). Make use of the many, many shortblades in early dungeon that are often branded.

Find a good longblade, usually some time just after lair.

Crosstrain longblades, snag that nice bonus. Continue boosting shortblades if you need a higher mindelay for say, a triple sword.

Pick a magic school or something and transfer shortblades xp into it.

You still lose the 10%, but you got to step thru shortblades in the early game to great benefit, which makes training longblades significantly cheaper by the time you need them, and then you get to not have crappy shortblades on your non-stabber.

This is actually the point and main advantage to the 'transfer knowledge' skill, to transfer skill points from a skill you are no longer using to a useful one.

[daggaz]

Yeah yeah, but generally people only do that if they make a mistake skilling or they find some amazing randart weapon that demands a total skill shift.

I know its not an exploit or anything and still within the "proper use" realm, but actually planning ahead to take advantage of not only the cross training bonus, but also the inherently increased drop rate in the early dungeon, just seems like kudos. In fact, Ash should grant extra piety if you plan ahead with him like this.

[Amnesiac]

I still don't understand how it works with a skill that hasn't been crosstrained, but allowed crosstraining, is it made worth less for transfer?

[BlackSheep]

The game tracks crosstrained skill points alongside regular skill points. If you transfer XP out of a skill with crosstrained skill points, there's an extra step that factors in the crosstraining.

[ackack]

It doesn't even seem like it has to do that, as once the skill drops below the other skill it should be in cross-training mode again. This is why ajon's proposal in his last post shouldn't work. Once long blades drops below short blades, it will go into cross-training mode and you will lose points in long blades much faster, even though you didn't use cross-training to get those points originally. Something seems wrong if this has to be hard-coded instead of just using the ordinary logic of these things.

[siprus]

I did some wizard mode testing. First i gave myself skill points with s to short blades. Then to long blades. Picked up ashenzari and started training Crosstraning away from short blades didn't decreases skill points in longblades. Though I'm not sure if it transferred same amount of xp as it would have done without long blades skill :/ I guess This could easily be achieved through some additonal wizard mode testing. Another thing i'm not sure if wizard mode xp is counted differently from regular xp.

Nevertheless I'd be interested to see how this is coded.

[Amnesiac]

all this effort being put into trying to break the game would certainly be better used learning the game

it's not like we actually want to break the game... I don't think that someone, who is persevering enough to play this game fairly would want to use bugs. It's just curiousity to know how it works and it will be reported as a bug, which will only help development.

[ajon]

Its not game breaking to understand how something works. In fact, its as you say, learning the game.

[Siegurt]

I did some wizard mode testing. First i gave myself skill points with s to short blades. Then to long blades. Picked up ashenzari and started training Crosstraning away from short blades didn't decreases skill points in longblades. Though I'm not sure if it transferred same amount of xp as it would have done without long blades skill :/ I guess This could easily be achieved through some additonal wizard mode testing. Another thing i'm not sure if wizard mode xp is counted differently from regular xp.

Nevertheless I'd be interested to see how this is coded.

  Code:

// Transfer skill points from one skill to another (Ashenzari transfer
// knowledge ability). If simu, it just simulates the transfer and don't
// change anything. It returns the new level of tsk.
int transfer_skill_points(skill_type fsk, skill_type tsk, int skp_max,
                          bool simu, bool boost)
{
    ASSERT(!is_invalid_skill(fsk) && !is_invalid_skill(tsk));

    const int penalty = 90; // 10% XP penalty
    int total_skp_lost   = 0; // skill points lost in fsk.
    int total_skp_gained = 0; // skill points gained in tsk.
    int fsk_level = you.skills[fsk];
    int tsk_level = you.skills[tsk];
    int fsk_points = you.skill_points[fsk];
    int tsk_points = you.skill_points[tsk];
    int fsk_ct_points = you.ct_skill_points[fsk];
    int tsk_ct_points = you.ct_skill_points[tsk];

    if (!simu && you.ct_skill_points[fsk] > 0)
        dprf("ct_skill_points[%s]: %d", skill_name(fsk), you.ct_skill_points[fsk]);

    // We need to transfer by small steps and updating skill levels each time
    // so that cross/anti-training are handled properly.
    while (total_skp_lost < skp_max
           && (simu || total_skp_lost < (int)you.transfer_skill_points))
    {
        int skp_lost = min(20, skp_max - total_skp_lost);
        int skp_gained = skp_lost * penalty / 100;

        float ct_bonus = crosstrain_bonus(tsk);
        if (ct_bonus > 1 && fsk != tsk)
        {
            skp_gained *= ct_bonus;
            you.ct_skill_points[tsk] += (1 - 1 / ct_bonus) * skp_gained;
        }
        else if (is_antitrained(tsk))
            skp_gained /= ANTITRAIN_PENALTY;

        ASSERT(you.skill_points[fsk] > you.ct_skill_points[fsk]);

        int ct_penalty = skp_lost * you.ct_skill_points[fsk]
                          / (you.skill_points[fsk] - you.ct_skill_points[fsk]);
        ct_penalty = min<int>(ct_penalty, you.ct_skill_points[fsk]);
        you.ct_skill_points[fsk] -= ct_penalty;
        skp_lost += ct_penalty;

        if (!simu)
        {
            skp_lost = min<int>(skp_lost, you.transfer_skill_points
                                          - total_skp_lost);
        }

        total_skp_lost += skp_lost;
        change_skill_points(fsk, -skp_lost, false);

        // If reducing fighting would reduce your maxHP to 0 or below,
        // we cancel the last step and end the transfer.
        if (fsk == SK_FIGHTING && get_real_hp(false, true) <= 0)
        {
            change_skill_points(fsk, skp_lost, false);
            total_skp_lost -= skp_lost;
            if (!simu)
                you.transfer_skill_points = total_skp_lost;
            break;
        }

        total_skp_gained += skp_gained;

        if (fsk != tsk)
        {
            change_skill_points(tsk, skp_gained, false);
            if (you.skills[tsk] == 27)
                break;
        }
    }

    int new_level = you.skill(tsk, 10, !boost);
    // Restore the level
    you.skills[fsk] = fsk_level;
    you.skills[tsk] = tsk_level;

    if (simu)
    {
        you.skill_points[fsk] = fsk_points;
        you.skill_points[tsk] = tsk_points;
        you.ct_skill_points[fsk] = fsk_ct_points;
        you.ct_skill_points[tsk] = tsk_ct_points;
    }
    else
    {
        // Perform the real level up
        check_skill_level_change(fsk);
        check_skill_level_change(tsk);
        if ((int)you.transfer_skill_points < total_skp_lost)
            you.transfer_skill_points = 0;
        else
            you.transfer_skill_points -= total_skp_lost;

        dprf("skill %s lost %d points", skill_name(fsk), total_skp_lost);
        dprf("skill %s gained %d points", skill_name(tsk), total_skp_gained);
        if (you.ct_skill_points[fsk] > 0)
            dprf("ct_skill_points[%s]: %d", skill_name(fsk), you.ct_skill_points[fsk]);

        if (you.transfer_skill_points == 0 || you.skills[tsk] == 27)
            ashenzari_end_transfer(true);
        else
            dprf("%d skill points left to transfer", you.transfer_skill_points);
    }
    return new_level;
}


like that.

[siprus]

So if I understood it correctly when you start untraining skill which gets crosstraining bonus you basically get 50% less skill points to your new skill, no matter the order you put skillpoints into that skill.

Actually way originally thought it would work was a bit silly XD

[Volteccer_Jack]

Its not game breaking to understand how something works. In fact, its as you say, learning the game.

i think he meant that your time would be better spent learning parts of the game that increase your ability to win

[Amnesiac]

So if I understood it correctly when you start untraining skill which gets crosstraining bonus you basically get 50% less skill points to your new skill, no matter the order you put skillpoints into that skill.

Actually way originally thought it would work was a bit silly XD

did you understand about transfering from the skill that allowed crosstraining(not the crosstrained one) in the first place? because my eyes hurt from that code.

[siprus]

How i understood it, it basically if there is crosstraining happening with your skills, and if you have it lowers the XP new skill get to your new skill.

[savageorange]

That code is somewhat complex, but as far as I understand the main point here is that instead of transferring the whole amount of exp at once, it transfers it bit-by-bit (and recalculates the crosstraining etc bonuses after each sub-transfer). Thus, if you get any effective skill gain (ha) from the transfer, it will be very small as it will only be in effect for the one sub-transfer where the transition from good to bad bonuses occurs.

[and into]

Maybe this has been changed, but as I understand it, you get X amount of experience for killing a dude, which goes into whatever abilities you are training, and is NOT affected by aptitudes or cross-training. The skill level you have in some particular field (dodging, stealth, whatever), is based on the experience you have put into it, but the higher your aptitudes, the higher the skill level for a given amount of experience. If I am not mistaken, Ash's skill transfer is designed (in effect, though how this looks in code I don't know) to transfer the experience. If that's the case, there's no way to "game" the system. Even if Ash didn't charge a 10% "tax," you could only break even, because even if the skill levels are different, the amount of experience is the same after transfer.

The amount of experience needed to reach X skill level is not going to be meaningfully affected by the order in which you train skills. This is not changed by Ash's skill transfer. (If there is some edge case in which it does, I believe this should be reported as a bug.)


Putting aside questions of how it works, though (this thread is in dungeon crawling advice, not game design, after all)... The only practical reasons to use Ash's skill transfer is to

1.) "hyper-train" a skill at the expense of another (e.g., you just found the spell haste so you train charms while dumping something else into it via Ash, because getting haste on-line is just that powerful),
2.) change strategic direction (e.g., you were primarily a blaster using air magic, now you want to go hard ice magic for some reason)
3.) empty out a skill that was helpful but is now less valuable (e.g., you don't like poison arrow (for some strange reason) so you get rid of poison skill as you near the end)

In my experience, those numbers above also reflect, respectively, the importance and usefulness of each of those applications of Ash's ability. I'd also say that skill transfer, while a nice and cool bonus, really is not the main reason to use Ash.

[galehar]

I did some wizard mode testing. First i gave myself skill points with s to short blades. Then to long blades.

If you set skill level with &S, it doesn't emulate any crosstraining. If you want to test the effect of skill transfer on crosstrained skills, you'll have to train skill using &T and you.gain_exp(xxx) for example. Or raise your XL (&L) and train skills.

As has been explained by others, you can't game the system by transferring from a crosstrained skill. It would just be reduced faster to compensate. The other idea of transferring from the higher level skill and still enjoy the crosstrain bonus to the lower level one should work, but I don't consider this to be an exploit.

because my eyes hurt from that code.

Yeah, sorry the code isn't pretty. It was a bit complicated to make sure that the ability couldn't be abused. As you can see from this thread (and many others before this one), this wasn't superfluous

[mopl]

Someone also asked about using a manual and then transferring but it wasn't answered...

When worshipping Ash, I use to learn every skill which I have a manual for and then transfer to some useful skill, but is it worth it ? Or do I just lose the 10% XP ??

[galehar]

As has been explained by others, you can't game the system by transferring from a crosstrained skill. It would just be reduced faster to compensate. The other idea of transferring from the higher level skill and still enjoy the crosstrain bonus to the lower level one should work, but I don't consider this to be an exploit.

But what if you train polearms to 20 and then train axes to 20 and then transfer away from polearms to get rid of the crosstraining on axes and then transfer away from axes???

In that case, Axes is still decreased faster to compensate for the crosstraining bonus. When you train a skill which has the crosstraining bonus, the amount of skill points gained with crosstraining is saved in a separate array. This is this array which is used to track when and how much additional skill points need to be drained when transferring from a skill, not the current crosstraining bonus.

Someone also asked about using a manual and then transferring but it wasn't answered...

When worshipping Ash, I use to learn every skill which I have a manual for and then transfer to some useful skill, but is it worth it ? Or do I just lose the 10% XP ??

IIRC, this works fine and is a reasonable strategy.

[BlackSheep]

When worshipping Ash, I use to learn every skill which I have a manual for and then transfer to some useful skill, but is it worth it ? Or do I just lose the 10% XP ??

There's also a piety cost and a time cost.