Single handed Melee advice help

[Sovek]

Greetings, I could use some advice. I've been playing DC for some time, even before Stone Soup, and have yet to win . My best run was a couple days ago where I managed to clear Lair 8, Orc 4, Spider Nest, Swamp, and Vaults 5 in that order with a LOBe. I had been using an axe, and dont get me wrong, LOBe's are nice and all, but its far too easy to get yourself into trouble. I met my fate on Forest 2, assuming it would have been just as easy as the crypt. It was not.

Upon review, I like melee chars and LO are a nice addition. However, something has to change. Thats the two handed weapon bit.

I've found that chars with shields are more liable to survive tough encounters than say a beserking orc with heavy armor. So, I'm left with two viable choices from my standpoint. Maces or Long Swords. I've gone down the long swords route and found that getting my hands on a double sword were near impossible and it was best to hope for a flaming scimitar or something, which Oka gifts with some regularity. Morningstars are better though, but here is the rub, I have never played with Oka and used maces. Trog I know gifts Battleaxes just about anytime you are using axes, with a smattering of broads and Execut. Rarely does he gift anything less than that. Now Will Oka do something similar with maces, that being Morningstars and great maces, with a eveningstar or two mixed in?

Also, what race? LO are fun, and their food clock isnt as bad. but Mi are slightly better due to their increased dodge skill, Shields, and M&F skill.

Thats another question, it what order do I train skills.

[ackack]

Crypt is not that easy anymore either. For a 3 rune game you are honestly better off not entering either one.

Planning on one-handing as a melee focused character is a bit tough. I guess Trog and Oka will probably eventually give you something halfway decent. I would just stick with LOBe if that's what you've been having success with, I'm pretty sure they are easier than MiBe with the various LO intrinsics you're getting.

[Siegurt]

Oka and Trog use the same code to decide what weapon to gift you. It guesses what weapon type you want based on what you have trained highest, and guesses whether you want one or two handed based on how much shields you've trained. You do not always get the preferred weapon, you are more *likely* to get a weapon appropriate to your skills.

Oka gives less weapons than Trog simply because he also gifts armour, meaning some of your gifts will be armour instead of weapons. Also Trog gifts tend to have higher damage bonuses and lower to-hit bonuses than Oka gifts.

Mi do make slightly better fighters than LO, but the LO fiery temper can make up for it. Either will make a fine warrior, although being able to berserk at will makes LO pair well with Trog.

When playing a melee-centered fighter I start with my weapon skill, I get that to min delay for my current weapon

Spoiler: show

Min delay is your hitting speed, minus 70% divided by 5, so a morningstar with a speed of 150% - 70% = 80, 80/5 = 16 skill to get to min delay

Subtract 50% instead for short blades, and if regular speed /2 is less than 70%, use that instead

Then I train Fighting up to around 10, then I train armour and dodging (Dodging first if using light armour, Armour first if using heavy)

Usually by that point I've upgraded to a heavier weapon, so I train more weapon skill, then more fighting, then more dodging/armour defensive skills. If I'm using a shield this is when I train shields.

From there things open up a bit, you'll want evocations or some kind of spellcasting, or perhaps just to push your melee skills way high, all depending on what kind of stuff you have available and what direction you want to take things.

[BlackSheep]

I'm not sure about the interaction between heat aura and Brothers in Arms. If there's a risk of angering a berserk giant standing next to you, I'd be very careful about when I invoke BiA.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Eveningstars are ridiculously rare, such that it is better to pretend they don't exist (and they're functionally identical to double swords, which are, at least in my limited experience, more common). If you go maces on Be, you should probably plan on a great mace, since they are very good, and so common that it is almost impossible NOT to find one.

If you want to go one-handed, the decision comes down to scimitar vs. morningstar and demon blade vs. demon whip (since double sword/eveningstar have identical stats). Morningstar is slightly strong than scimitar but requires slightly more skill for mindelay. Demon blade is stronger than demon whip but demon whip is 0.1 faster at mindelay.

[Mankeli]

I'm not sure about the interaction between heat aura and Brothers in Arms. If there's a risk of angering a berserk giant standing next to you, I'd be very careful about when I invoke BiA.

You don't have to be careful, they don't react to getting burned (version 0.13-a0-2450).

[Sovek]

Quick update. I decided to run a LOFi, currently D:16, with a +4 eveningstar, shield of Reflec (both from Donald in Orc 3) and the +27 Lear's Huberk (God gift). I even managed to survive Abyss 1 twice, in a row, from the same thing (friggen ogre mage). The second time was way more difficult however, almost died. A +6 +2 flail of Holy Wrath helped .

Other useful items include a Lamp of Fire (second run of the abyss), Lengendary deck of destruction, and a lamp of shadows (useful getaway)

edit: Spoke too soon, got killed after taking on Jory (XL 18 ), Never managed to get flight (swamp was hidden) nor rPois, so I didnt want to take on Spider, Thought I could handle Vault 5, turns out not.. though thats a YASD, as I forgot to wield my flail of Holy Wrath

[tcjsavannah]

edit: Spoke too soon, got killed after taking on Jory (XL 18 )

HE'S A MENACE, I TELL YOU. A MENACE

[Wahaha]

Not sure why no one said that for the type of character he's playing using a 2h weapon is better than using 1h and shield yet.

I've found that chars with shields are more liable to survive tough encounter

I'm not sure what a tough encounter is but I'd say that standard melee chars with 2h weapons are better at winning.

[bobross419]

I'm with the OP in that my 1H+S characters fair far better than my 2H characters. Even knowing that 2H can dish out more damage. It may come down to play style. I'm usually rather sloppy and the SH tends to help out a bit there.

Sovek... any reason you aren't considering tridents? They dish out slightly less damage but the tactical usefulness of reach seems to help out my characters so much... plus Demon Tridents "seem" to be more common than Demon Blades. I've gotta say though that my Double Sword wielding DsCj can dish out a major whoopin'

[ackack]

Not sure why no one said that for the type of character he's playing using a 2h weapon is better than using 1h and shield yet.

Because it sounded like he'd already made up his mind that that's not what he wanted to do.

[Sovek]

To the above questions, hadnt thought about tridents, but a trident from the looks of it will do less damage than a mace, due to the 40% gap in Str weight. Right now I'm on dropping most monsters from the Lair in 1-3 hits, hydras take about three, green rats will drop in 1. I'm probably hard pressed to get such results with a trident. Plus LO get STR bonus in levels rather than dex, so taking advantage of STR is difficult.

And while you guys may be winning with 2H weapons, I've found from personal experience that dealing with Vaults and the stupid number of crossbows is easier with a shield+Plate/crystal is far easier than a 2H char, since getting behind a corner isnt always an option.

Anyways, could use some advice for right now for a CiP, char dump here

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13-a0-2632-g2f0fc1f (tiles) character file.

Sovek the Bludgeoner (Lava Orc Fighter)            Turns: 32888, Time: 01:43:42

HP 133/133       AC 48     Str 32      XL: 15   Next: 41%
MP  28/28        EV  5     Int  8      God: Okawaru [******]
Gold 1878        SH 43     Dex 10      Spells:  0 memorised, 14 levels left

Res.Fire  : + + .   See Invis. : +   W - -1,+2 orc morningstar
Res.Cold  : + . .   Warding    : .   e - +10 plate armour of Cheibriados' Hope {Str
Life Prot.: + . .   Conserve   : .   p - +1 large shield {rF+}
Res.Poison: +       Res.Corr.  : .   v - +2 dwarf helmet {SInv}
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   A - +2 dwarf cloak {rPois}
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : +   n - +1 pair of gauntlets {Str+3}
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   h - +2 pair of orc boots {Fly}
Res.Rott. : .       Flight     : .   k - amulet "Phizxuw" {Spirit +Blink rPois rC+}
Saprovore : + . .                    K - ring of sustenance
                                     O - ring "Jolim" {rN+ MR++}

@: slow, extremely resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely unstealthy
A: conserve scrolls, saprovore 1, AC +4
a: Heroism, Finesse, Renounce Religion, Evoke Blink, Evoke Flight


You are on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Okawaru.
Okawaru is exalted by your worship.
You are hungry.

You have visited 4 branches of the dungeon, and seen 30 of its levels.
You have also visited: Labyrinth and Bailey.

You have collected 2658 gold pieces.
You have spent 800 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 d - the +4,+0 demon whip of Okawaru's Regard {pain, rN+ MR++}
   (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 3 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   In the hands of one skilled in necromantic magic, it inflicts extra damage
   on living creatures.
   
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 U - the +5,+5 mace of Brilliance {holy, rN+ AC+5 Int+5 SInv Stlth-}
   (You acquired it on level 15 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It has been blessed by the Shining One to cause great damage to the undead
   and demons.
   
   It affects your AC (+5).
   It affects your intelligence (+5).
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It enhances your eyesight.
   It makes you less stealthy.
 W - a -1,+2 orcish morningstar (weapon)
Armour
 e - the +10 plate armour of Cheibriados' Hope (worn) {Str+3 Acc+5 Curse}
   (You found it on level 7 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It affects your accuracy (+5).
   It may recurse itself.
 h - a +2 pair of orcish boots of flying (worn)
 n - a +1 pair of gauntlets of strength (worn)
 p - a +1 large shield of fire resistance (worn)
 v - a +2 dwarven helmet of see invisible (worn)
 A - a +2 dwarven cloak of poison resistance (worn)
Magical devices
 y - a wand of digging (10)
 G - a wand of lightning {zapped: 1}
 Q - a wand of heal wounds (2)
 R - a wand of disintegration (20)
Comestibles
 M - 11 bread rations
Scrolls
 g - 7 scrolls of fog
 i - 3 scrolls of blinking
 j - 3 scrolls of magic mapping
 t - 13 scrolls of teleportation
 x - 5 scrolls of fear
 F - a scroll of silence
Jewellery
 k - the amulet "Phizxuw" (around neck) {Spirit +Blink rPois rC+}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   [amulet of guardian spirit]
   It protects you from cold.
   It protects you from poison.
   It lets you blink.
 o - an uncursed amulet of resist corrosion
 K - a ring of sustenance (right hand)
 N - an uncursed ring of protection from cold
 O - the ring "Jolim" (left hand) {rN+ MR++}
   (You found it on level 14 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of positive energy]
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
Potions
 a - 8 potions of curing
 b - 2 potions of resistance
 l - 3 potions of restore abilities
 z - 5 potions of speed
 B - 8 potions of might
 D - a potion of invisibility
 E - a potion of berserk rage
 Y - a potion of agility
 Z - 2 potions of heal wounds
Miscellaneous
 H - a stone of tremors
 L - a box of beasts
Rods
 J - a +1 rod of warding (12/12)
   (You found it in a labyrinth)


   Skills:
 + Level 14.0 Fighting
 - Level 17.0 Maces & Flails
 + Level 12.7 Armour
 + Level 12.9 Shields
 - Level 10.0 Invocations
 - Level 8.7 Evocations


You have 14 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (17/27)            Temple (1/1) D:7             Orc (4/4) D:6
    Elf (0/3) Orc:3          Lair (8/8) D:8           Swamp (0/5) Lair:3
  Snake (0/5) Lair:6        Slime (0/6) Lair:6     
Vaults: D:15-20     

Altars:
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Okawaru
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Beogh

Shops:
D:9: *  D:16: !  Orc:4: (/%=(


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You have stony skin.
You cover ground slowly.
Your flesh is heat resistant.
Your flesh is vulnerable to cold.
Your heat harms attackers.
You bathe your surroundings in blazing heat.
You are too hot to use scrolls.
You are very good at protecting items from fire.
You can tolerate rotten meat.
You are partially covered in iridescent scales (AC +4).


The MoB was actually gotten from a SoA, and opted for a weapon instead of the gold since I had plenty and not much in the way of decent shops. Useful I guess if thrown into the Abyss, maybe a way to clear Crypt, but other than that, I find it kinda useless, I already like 47 AC, with another 40+ in SH.... an extra 5 ins't gonna help too much, and I have so many ways of SInv its not funny.

I'm thinking about taking on either Swamp or Snake at this point, instead of heading for the vaults.

[ackack]

Train some necro and wield that pain dwhip, even with the crappy enchants I'd imagine that crushes your morningstar. 7 Necro is enough to start with.

[Scrotar]

If you want to win, play a healer. Waaaay more forgiving than most, so you can learn the ropes without having to splat constantly.

[MoogleDan]

I notice you had no Dodge skill there. While it's true that heavy armor like your plate mail there isn't exactly kind to the effectiveness of Dodge, getting your EV up to double digits is actually really useful for melee thug survivability, probably moreso than having a good shield. Also, have you come across many dragon armors? Those tend to have better stats than the metal man-made sorts (though a plate mail is a perfectly acceptable suit, especially when it's a solid randart).

[ontoclasm]

Two-handers are often suggested not just because they do more damage, but because you save a huge amount on Shields skill. You've got 13 levels in Shield there and still aren't even close to negating the penalties for your large shield. You could easily have used that exp to get Swiftness, Repel Missiles, and more online by now, and those would probably be protecting you far better than your shield is. And you'd be doing noticeably more damage.

More importantly, as a couple of people have sort of halfway mentioned, a far better way to avoid damage is to learn positioning and tactics so that you don't need to invest 2/3 of your exp into defences to stay alive; this is true whether you've got a shield or not. Yaktaurs are speed 10, which means you can (and should) just walk away from them -- that hail of bolts is not a sign you need a bigger shield, it's a sign you have made a mistake and shouldn't be walking across open floor towards a bunch of dudes with crossbows.

Oh, and replace that ring of sustenance with a ring that actually does something.

[Abominae]

Getting 15 Shield skill for ~30 SH is much easier than obtaining ~30 EV when you're wearing heavy armour and/or have low dexterity. SH works pretty much identically to EV against melee attacks in a corridor; this happens to be an ideal situations for most melee characters. I'm not in anyway saying there is no drawback to using a shield, but the benefits are there. Even against penalties, a high SH value has a significant effect on your ability to bypass damage.
Also, the highest skill you need for a 1h weapon is 16. Most require only 14 or lower. Not having to raise your weapon skill to 20-26 frees up a significant amount of exp to funnel into shields.

I don't know, I think people sort of overlook that SH works extremely well against pretty much every monster until bolts of whatever show up. By then, you should be able to handle them (and even then SH still works against every other monster). The Fighter's starting shield is seriously good, and it will make you survive better provided you take advantage of shield mechanics.

A shield is still pretty bad if you want to play melee in extended, but not for the reasons I normally see posters say. It doesn't matter that shields can't do anything against torment or hellfire; armour and dodging don't do crap against them either. It's because by the time you're rolling through extended, you have enough exp to allocate an asston into defense skills despite your huge weapon skill and whatever spells you wanted. There's no point in not having superior damage because your defenses are great and even they don't protect against two of the largest threats extended has to offer. You can definitely still go through extended with any amount of shield investment, but the effect is far less noticeable than in areas where SH mechanics are favorable.

[Amnesiac]

I like shields, but this guy with 48 ac would do better with a 2H-weapon and some buffs, like repell misiles, if he wants to be bold and run to packs of taurs. But since you already have enough SH, you can do vaults with it, probably. But then, seriously consider a two-hander, you can switch to an evening star if you find one, though, which will allow a shield again.

[XuaXua]

edit: Spoke too soon, got killed after taking on Jory (XL 18 )

HE'S A MENACE, I TELL YOU. A MENACE

No, you're thinking of Mennas.