blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade


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Dis Charger

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Post Sunday, 28th July 2013, 07:28

blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

I'd like to ask a couple of questions. The first one is what will happen if I read a scroll of vorpalization while holding a blowgun. Probably nothing, right? The second one is what is my chance to acquire a quickblade if I have 10 SB and 20 throwing. My previous two tries were successful, but I would like to be sure. Also, I think I didn't have a high throwing skill. Should I find more branded short blades or it won't help?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 28th July 2013, 08:09

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

Vorpalize weapon doesn't work on blowguns.

Technical gobbledygook/Acquirement mechanics enclosed:
Spoiler: show
Your skills effectively make it more likely that you'll get a short blade of some variety, it doesn't effect which one you'll get.

With a scroll of acquirement, each weapon skill gives that category (skill+2)*(skill+3) weighting,

So for 10 shortblades and 0 everything else that's (12*13) in (12*13)+5*(2*3)
or
156 in 186, or an about 84% chance of getting a short blade of some sort.

Quick blades "Acquire rarity" is 2 on a scale of 10, all other short blades are 10 out of 10.

A scroll bumps that up to 5

For each of the item types, a roll is made which has to "beat" the predecessor, for scroll acquirements, the acquire rating is multiplied by the ratio between damage and speed (So for a dagger it'd be 10, times 4 / 10) quickblades get their rating additionally mutiplied by 25/9ths because their damage rating belies how useful they are.

This breaks down to:

Dagger:4
Quickblade: 11.9
Short sword: 5.45
Sabre: 5.83

These numbers are then multiplied by 5 if you haven't seen the item.
Assuming you haven't seen a quickblade, but have seen the other three it looks like this:
Dagger:4
Quick blade: 59.5
Short sword: 5.45
Sabre: 5.83

Dagger will always beat the nothing before it, and quickblade will always beat dagger (because a 59.5-in-4 chance is >100%)
Next up is short sword which will then have a 5.45 in (59.5+4)=63.5 or 8.5% chance of replacing the quickblade.
Finally Sabre will get a 5.83 in (63.5+5.45) = 8.45% chance of replacing either the quickblade or short sword

So with 10 in shortblades, if you haven't seen a quickblade and have seen everything else, you're likelihood of scoring one off a acquirement scroll is 100-(8.5+8.45) = 83.05% of 84%

For a grand total of.... 69.72% if you haven't seen a quickblade and have seen all the other short blades.
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Post Sunday, 28th July 2013, 08:22

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

Wow, that's great. But doesn't it say 83%? Or did you include my throwing into consideration?

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Post Sunday, 28th July 2013, 19:18

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

84% chance to get any sort of short blade, 83% to get a quickblade out of the subset of short-blades, should you get

(roughly)83% of (roughly)84% = 69.72% of the total times an acquirement scroll is read
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 29th July 2013, 03:46

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

Vorpalize should work on blowguns by applying a viable brand (evasion, speed,etc.)
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Monday, 29th July 2013, 07:06

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

Except that vorpalize only adds a generic damage brand and blowgun ammo doesnt actually do damage if I remember correctly. You can vorpalize a sling to get "velocity" for example, as stones or sling bullets do damage.

Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 29th July 2013, 15:47

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

I analyzed the weapon acquirement code of version 0.12.1 and found several discrepancies between it and the explanation provided by Siegurt. So, let me make some corrections and recalculate the result.
Spoiler: show
1. The choice between weapon skills is described correctly, but there's a side note: throwing skill doesn't get any weighting, that's why it's impossible to acquire blowguns.
2. Ranged weapons skills other than throwing get their 2*3 weighting too, therefore the chance to acquire a short blade would be (12*13) in (12*13) + 8*(2*3) ~= 76.5%.
3. Acquirement rarities of the weapons get multiplied by cubed damage rating and divided by weapon speed, then also multiplied by 25/9 for quick blades and by 5 for unseen weapon types. These calculations get even more complicated for weapon categories which have both one-handed and two-handed weapons, but we don't care about this within our example. Acquirement weightings of all the short blades would be:

Dagger: 10*(4*4*4)/10 = 64
Quick blade (unseen): 5*(5*5*5)/7 * 25/9 * 5 ~= 1240.1
Short sword: 10*(6*6*6)/11 ~= 196.4
Sabre: 10*(7*7*7)/12 ~= 285.8

4. Finally, after calculating those weightings, the choice between the actual weapons is made according to them: each weapon type has a chance to be chosen equal to its weighting divided by the sum of all weightings.
Note to Siegurt: compound assignment operators in C++ return the result of the operation, so this piece of code
  Code:
if (x_chance_in_y(acqweight, count += acqweight))
     result = i;

is the equivalent of
  Code:
count += acqweight;
if (x_chance_in_y(acqweight, count))
     result = i;

An unseen quick blade has a 1240.1/(64+1240.1+196.4+285.8) ~= 69.4% to be chosen between all short blades. And the final answer is 69.4% of 76.5% ~= 53,09%.

So, i ended up with a result of 53,09% chance for an unseen quick blade to be acquired, which is still totally worth a try. Also, blowguns are completely excluded from the weapon acquirement algorithm, so your Throwing skill doesn't matter at all.
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Dis Charger

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Post Monday, 29th July 2013, 16:09

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

I keep seeing "if haven't seen", but what if I see it? Will my odds improve or will they be closer to other blades?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 29th July 2013, 17:02

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

If you've never seen a given type of weapon, it's five times more likely to show up with an acquirement scroll than if you've already gotten a weapon of that sort.
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Post Monday, 29th July 2013, 17:06

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

ZoFy wrote:compound assignment operators in C++ return the result of the operation

Duh, yeah, I knew that, I'd been staring at postfix/prefix unary incrementers (from some weirdly written code at work) all day and at 3am when I wrote that my brain was still stuck in that mode. I should know better than to read code I've never looked at before at 3am under the covers when I can't sleep.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Monday, 29th July 2013, 19:11

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

Speaking of vorpalize scrolls, they now allow you to rebrand weapons. Does anyone know what that means?

Dis Charger

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Post Monday, 29th July 2013, 19:24

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

Well, if you read a scroll of vorpalization, while wielding a branded weapon, you'll waste it. And you can't use temporary brands with branded weapons, anyway. But I feel, that if it would be possible, it would be cool and not so bad for the balance.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Monday, 29th July 2013, 19:30

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

The new description for vorp. scroll says:
  Code:
The scroll can make permanent the temporary branding of weapons obtained from some spells, or can be used on a weapon that is already permanently branded to randomly select a new brand.

Taken from here. One of the next commits specifies that it won't chose the brand your god dislikes.

Dis Charger

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Post Monday, 29th July 2013, 20:07

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

Hmm, if it works, that's great. Does it include only freezing and burning, I wonder?

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Post Monday, 29th July 2013, 20:15

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

  Code:
new_brand = random_choose_weighted(
   30, SPWPN_FLAMING,
   30, SPWPN_FREEZING,
   20, SPWPN_VENOM,
   15, SPWPN_DRAINING,
   15, SPWPN_VORPAL,
   15, SPWPN_ELECTROCUTION,
   12, SPWPN_PROTECTION,
   8, SPWPN_VAMPIRICISM,
   3, SPWPN_CHAOS,
   0);

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Dis Charger

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Post Monday, 29th July 2013, 20:29

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

Awesome. No, seriously.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 29th July 2013, 20:34

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

Yeah, I very rarely used vorpalise scrolls, and then only once per game.

Dis Charger

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Post Monday, 29th July 2013, 20:39

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

Now you have a chance to do something like a bow of electrocution, right?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 29th July 2013, 20:40

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

Amnesiac wrote:Now you have a chance to do something like a bow of electrocution, right?

Oh, yes, here are the ranged weapon weightings:

  Code:
 if (is_range_weapon(wpn))
   {
   new_brand = random_choose_weighted(
   30, SPWPN_FLAME,
   30, SPWPN_FROST,
   20, SPWPN_VENOM,
   20, SPWPN_VORPAL,
   12, SPWPN_EVASION,
   5, SPWPN_ELECTROCUTION,
   3, SPWPN_CHAOS,
   0);

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Dis Charger

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Post Monday, 29th July 2013, 21:07

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

I get a feeling that electrocution could use a couple more percent

Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 29th July 2013, 21:11

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

I wonder how much time it would take for some player to worsen his end-game weapon brand by reading an unIDed scroll of vorpalise (or an IDed one by accident).
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 29th July 2013, 21:52

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

To get this back on topic then, will the Scroll of Vorpalization now work on blowguns, sort of how I mentioned it earlier?
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 05:39

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

Thanks to some Xom wackiness I had a blowgun of chaos in one game. I died almost immediately after picking it up though, so I didn't get the opportunity to play with it.

Slime Squisher

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Post Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 06:19

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

  Code:
# New vorpalise is terrifying.
autoinscribe += scroll of vorpalise weapon:!r
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 08:00

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

Man. I cannot wait for 0.13 to get out of trunk. That is seriously awesome, I think I have had less than a dozen games where I actually needed and could use a scroll a vorp.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 13:45

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

Edit: See Siegurt's post below.
XuaXua wrote:To get this back on topic then, will the Scroll of Vorpalization now work on blowguns, sort of how I mentioned it earlier?
Since ammo brands always override launcher brands, (except I think a freezing/flaming special case that isn't relevant here), and there are no unbranded needles, the only brands with any effect on blowguns are evasion/protection. Since rebranding doesn't detect if a brand is good for a weapon (This is arguably a glitch) it can give blowguns brands like flaming and freezing . Therefore, the new rebranding scrolls will only affect blowguns if you roll the 10% chance of evasion.
Last edited by reaver on Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 17:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 15:10

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

Interesting that speed isn't a brand that can be given by the new vorpalize weapon scroll. Any particular reason for that?

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Post Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 17:04

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

reaver wrote:
XuaXua wrote:To get this back on topic then, will the Scroll of Vorpalization now work on blowguns, sort of how I mentioned it earlier?
Since ammo brands always override launcher brands, (except I think a freezing/flaming special case that isn't relevant here), and there are no unbranded needles, the only brands with any effect on blowguns are evasion/protection. Since rebranding doesn't detect if a brand is good for a weapon (This is arguably a glitch) it can give blowguns brands like flaming and freezing . Therefore, the new rebranding scrolls will only affect blowguns if you roll the 10% chance of evasion.


Actually blowguns are still excluded from vorpalize scrolls like non-weapons and artefacts:
  Code:
 if (wpn.base_type != OBJ_WEAPONS || wpn.sub_type == WPN_BLOWGUN
        || is_artefact(wpn))
    {
        return false;
    }
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 17:18

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

reaver wrote:
XuaXua wrote:To get this back on topic then, will the Scroll of Vorpalization now work on blowguns, sort of how I mentioned it earlier?
Since ammo brands always override launcher brands, (except I think a freezing/flaming special case that isn't relevant here), and there are no unbranded needles.


I was made to understand that they now combine successfully in trunk. Hence everyone can have launchers of flaming poison, just like that unique centaur guy.

Granted, the only brands I've seen on blowguns are Evasion and Speed (and I guess Chaos!), and since those aren't ammo brand manipulators, there is reason for a Scroll of Vorpalization to work on a blowgun.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 17:21

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

daggaz wrote:Man. I cannot wait for 0.13 to get out of trunk.


Why wait? Just play trunk.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 17:38

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

I can't find any commits indicating that ammo and launcher brands stack now, and testing indicates this is not the case.

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Post Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 17:40

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

XuaXua wrote:"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 17:43

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

What's odd is that I vaguely recall hearing something similar several weeks ago...

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Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 17:49

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

BlackSheep wrote:What's odd is that I vaguely recall hearing something similar several weeks ago...
Well the idea's been floating around for a while. It's even under the future versions plans on the dev wiki.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 17:50

Re: blowgun&vorpalize, acquirement&quickblade

I swear I read something about it in the commit logs at least a month or so ago.
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