Some help with MiBe

[delarado]

Guys, Just doing an MiBe game on webtiles now and want a little help on best practices.

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13-a0-2484-gc765b08 (webtiles) character file.

Delarado the Cleaver (Minotaur Berserker)           Turns: 3452, Time: 00:30:49

HP  52/52        AC  8     Str 21      XL: 6   Next: 29%
MP   2/2         EV  7     Int  4      God: Trog [****..]
Gold 182         SH  0     Dex 12      Spells:  0 memorised,  5 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : .   a - +0,+1 hand axe {=f}
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   D - +0 chain mail
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .   (no shield)
Res.Poison: .       Res.Corr.  : .   (helmet restricted)
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   (no cloak)
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   (no gloves)
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   (no boots)
Res.Rott. : .       Flight     : .   (no amulet)
Saprovore : . . .                    (no ring)
                                     (no ring)

@: slightly resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely unstealthy
A: retaliatory headbutt, horns 2
a: Burn Spellbooks, Berserk, Trog's Hand, Brothers in Arms, Renounce Religion


You are on level 4 of the Dungeon.
You worship Trog.
Trog is extremely pleased with you.
You are hungry.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 4 of its levels.

You have collected 162 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - a +0,+1 hand axe (weapon) {=f}
 e - an uncursed sling
 v - an uncursed sabre
 w - an uncursed runed elven short sword
 A - a dagger of flaming (quivered)
 E - an uncursed short sword of venom
 G - an uncursed falchion
 N - a +1,+1 dwarven war axe
 R - a dwarven hammer {got from yiuf}
Missiles
 h - 6 sling bullets
 k - 9 exploding sling bullets
 z - 25 poisoned needles
Armour
 b - a +0 animal skin
 j - a +0 leather armour
 p - a +0 scale mail
 B - a +0 ring mail
 D - a +0 chain mail (worn)
Comestibles
 c - 3 bread rations
 H - 4 meat rations
Scrolls
 l - 7 scrolls of identify
 o - 2 scrolls of enchant weapon II
 r - a scroll of teleportation
 s - a scroll labeled KLIHEPH WORAT
 t - a scroll labeled SHRANO VOUTRIPP
 x - 2 scrolls of blinking
 y - a scroll labeled STEMIFIJORCH
 J - a scroll labeled YTOIDEUFU
 M - a scroll labeled ANUYTU MISI
 P - a scroll labeled QEKLIPIWIER
 Q - a scroll labeled JAEX AHAS PRAST
Jewellery
 g - a silver ring
 C - an uncursed pearl ring {tried, was cursed}
Potions
 d - 5 potions of curing
 f - an emulsified green potion
 m - a lumpy pink potion
 n - a lumpy inky potion
 q - 2 potions of heal wounds
 u - a smoky orange potion
 F - a viscous green potion
 I - a slimy yellow potion
 K - a glowing green potion
 L - a cyan potion
 O - a green potion


   Skills:
 - Level 3.6 Fighting
 + Level 8.6 Axes
 - Level 2.4 Armour
 - Level 2.1 Dodging


You have 5 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (4/27)           
Temple: D:4-7       

Altars:


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You reflexively headbutt those who attack you in melee.
You have a pair of horns on your head.


Message History

Search for what [? for help]? ecu
Can't find anything matching that.
HP restored.
You are feeling hungry.
You see here an orcish mace.
You enter the shallow water.
Moving in this stuff is going to be slow.
Done exploring.
Done exploring.
Why would you want to do that?
Read which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
Read which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
Char dumped successfully.
Done exploring.
Use which ability? (? or * to list)
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Saving game... please wait.

               #≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈P......
               #≈≈≈≈P≈≈≈≈≈≈.....#
               #≈≈PPP≈P≈≈P≈.....#
               #≈P≈P≈≈≈≈≈≈≈...###
             ###≈P≈≈..≈≈≈≈≈...###
             #..≈.....P≈.≈≈......
             #...................
             #...................
             ##.@................
           ###)................##
           #..)................#
  #######  #..)................#
###.....####...#...............#
....[...#...####.............###
..............###............#  #
...##.........###............#  #
...#..........##.............####


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  Crazy Yiuf (D:4)
  A hound (D:4)
  An orc wizard (D:4)
  A scorpion (D:4)
  A worker ant (D:4)
  Terence (D:2)
  4 gnolls (D:2)
  6 adders
  An inept feature mimic (D:4)
  2 giant geckos (D:1)
  6 orcs (D:4)
  12 hobgoblins
  A ball python (D:2)
  11 bats
  6 giant cockroaches
  6 giant newts
  6 goblins
  2 jackals (D:4)
  18 kobolds
  4 quokkas
  13 rats
104 creatures vanquished.

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Delarado, the Minotaur Berserker, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 19/19 MP: 0/0
    88 | D:1      | Reached skill level 4 in Axes
   195 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 24/26 MP: 0/0
   561 | D:1      | Acquired Trog's second power
   624 | D:1      | Reached skill level 5 in Axes
   944 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 33/33 MP: 1/1
  1496 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 34/39 MP: 1/1
  1501 | D:2      | Reached skill level 6 in Axes
  1581 | D:2      | Noticed Terence
  1592 | D:2      | Killed Terence
  2068 | D:3      | Reached skill level 7 in Axes
  2068 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 46/46 MP: 1/1
  2202 | D:3      | Acquired Trog's third power
  2976 | D:4      | Noticed Crazy Yiuf
  2982 | D:4      | Killed Crazy Yiuf
  2982 | D:4      | Reached skill level 8 in Axes
  3071 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 41/52 MP: 2/2
  3370 | D:4      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  3377 | D:4      | the staircase to the Ecumenical Temple was a mimic.


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Hand axe          |    53 |   123 ||   176
       Short sword       |       |    19 ||    19
 Fire: Sling             |    50 |    59 ||   109
Invok: Berserk           |       |     1 ||     1
  Use: Scroll            |       |     8 ||     8
 Stab: Invisible         |       |     2 ||     2


I got lucky and ID'd ?ID, ?Blink ?Teleport and !Curing !Heal wounds early.

I have LOADS of ID Scrolls as you can see; But I haven't done much else.

Normally here I'd ID my jewellery, and burn my ?ID randomly between unknown potions and unknown scrolls... Or maybe just use-ID all the scrolls.

I realise there may not be a "best way" to do this, but how do you do it?

Also, how does armor work? I know what base AC is what it is and what it does, I'm not sure what encumbrance rating is though and what it does. I read somewhere that if you have more STR than encumberance rating of all of your armor, you should be good, is that right?

This leads me on to my next question, on a TrBe I got told to level dex. I presume this is for greater evasion etc. Does that mean I should level STR on a MiBe? As I'd imagine heavy armor throws evasion out the window?

Also, some runed weapons never seem to auto-ID. I used that runed elven short sword for an entire level and I still don't know what it is... Should I just forget about it?

Can anyone confirm if cursed runed weapons are mostly bad? I tend to uncurse and drop it if I find a runed item that turns out to be cursed (E.g am I likely to ever find a +3 +3 cursed weapon that wont Auto-ID?)

Finally, are there any generic rules of thumb for weapon choice? E.g I have two axes. one is +3 accuracy, 7 damage and 130% delay. The other is 0 accuracy, 11 damage and 150% delay. Which numbers are the most important?

Thanks, and sorry for flooding your forums of late

[Siegurt]

Normally here I'd ID my jewellery, and burn my ?ID randomly between unknown potions and unknown scrolls... Or maybe just use-ID all the scrolls.

I realise there may not be a "best way" to do this, but how do you do it?

I use my ID scrolls on my potions, I read-ID my scrolls (Trying to wait until I have a stack of what I suspect will be remove curse, using that last) and if I have any ID scrolls left I use them on jewellry

Also, how does armor work? I know what base AC is what it is and what it does, I'm not sure what encumbrance rating is though and what it does. I read somewhere that if you have more STR than encumberance rating of all of your armor, you should be good, is that right?

Sort of, encumberance gives you a penalty to Evasion and to-hit, which is mitigated by strength, It's a logarithmic scale if you have really low STR the penalty is off the charts, with some strength the penalty is manageable, and as you get higher and higher strength you get less and less benefit. The break-even point where you'll get diminishing returns is around the point where str is the the same as the encumberence rating. See this chart to compare current armour encumberance ratings with the old ratings and to get an idea of how the penalty is reduced wth more strength

This leads me on to my next question, on a TrBe I got told to level dex. I presume this is for greater evasion etc. Does that mean I should level STR on a MiBe? As I'd imagine heavy armor throws evasion out the window?

Depends on how heavy the armour is and what your str is.

Also, some runed weapons never seem to auto-ID. I used that runed elven short sword for an entire level and I still don't know what it is... Should I just forget about it?

Weapons auto-ID at a random level of skill now, whether used or not is irrelevant (Only picked up and wielded makes a difference) if wielding it didn't ID it, you'll need to get more short blades skill to auto-id it.

Can anyone confirm if cursed runed weapons are mostly bad? I tend to uncurse and drop it if I find a runed item that turns out to be cursed (E.g am I likely to ever find a +3 +3 cursed weapon that wont Auto-ID?)

They're randomly somewhat worse than they would have been if they hadn't been generated cursed, however the "amount worse" could be 0, and they could have started as a +3+3 item before being cursed.

Finally, are there any generic rules of thumb for weapon choice? E.g I have two axes. one is +3 accuracy, 7 damage and 130% delay. The other is 0 accuracy, 11 damage and 150% delay. Which numbers are the most important?

Those numbers represent the statistic of the weapon before your skills effect the weapon.
At low skill, accuracy and low delay are important, as your skill improves those numbers become less important and damage becomes more important. It takes 2 weapon skill to reduce the "delay" of a weapon by 10% (not in the description of the weapon, but in how long it takes to swing one) most weapons can be improved speed-wise to half their current delay, rounded up to the nearest 10% (So 130% can be improved to 70% with 12 skill)
All weapons can be improved speed wise to at least 70% of a turn, and all short blades can be improved to 50% of a turn. (You can observe the turn counter to see how long it takes to swing your weapon)
In practise most melee users train their weapon skill until they hit this "Minimum delay" and then go work on other things until they get a bigger weapon.
Additionally both weapon skill and fighting improve the "damage" statistic of the weapon by a percentage, which is why in the long run with high skill this is going to make the most difference.

Thanks, and sorry for flooding your forums of late

[nago]

Heavy armour doesn't throw evasion out the window, unless your str or dex (especially the latter) are low. As MiBe, you want to wear and enchant a plate armour, unless you find earlier a crystal plate one (very very very rare) or eventually a fire dragon. If you have 20ish str, raise dex on level up, and train dodging after armour is 20ish, you can easily end with 30ish/30ish ac/ev which are really high defence value.

About the weapons: you shouldn't never pick up or even worse wield id weapons which belong to a category different from what you're training, or are worse than what you're already using. For example, if you're training axes, you shouldn't bother with short blades at all (because they're bad for melee foes) or with others kind of weapon (because you've already spent a lot of experience on a skill so you don't want to train another which does the same thing).
There are some exception to this rule, like if you have a exec axe, you may still wield battle axe (because you may find a vamp, or antimagic one), or if you are early in the game you may switch from one kind of weapon to another if you find a very good one (like you're training axe and you find a bardiche on d:3).

Finally, usually a bigger weapon does more damage per aut than a littler one, even if the former is slower and less accurate. This isn't always true and depend on the skill value and brand/enchantment of the weapons - so for example for a skill range a battle axe could be better of a exec axe. If you want to accurately compare two weapons' damage output use the fsim to test the single cases.

[crate]

If you want to accurately compare two weapons' damage output use the fsim to test the single cases.

And if you want a quick and simple comparison, take (base damage)/delay for the weapons, and whichever one is bigger at your current skill is the one you should use.

[delarado]

Thanks for the help and the detailed answers guys, I dont get it though (The encumbrance graph anyway, the rest im fine with)

What are the scales? What does X represent? And Y? If you could take me through the graph quickly that would be great

With regard to Dex/Str levelling, it seems that Dex is the preferred attribute for melee fighters, so long as you have enough Str for what you need to do (Overcome encumbrance and carry stuff?)

Is it Int for casters? (For more MP)

On to the armor, I have a plate armor now - but it has an encumbrance rating of 19. My Str is 22.

The wiki states:

  Code:

you need 18 strength to avoid extra penalties from plate armour, since it has a base evasion penalty of -6.

I don't see a stat of -6 anywhere on my plate armor. I presume I'm fine wearing it, since my Str is over 18, but I like to understand why Is there just a list of known but unlisted base evasion penalties for different types of armor? If so, does anyone have a link? Is Encumbrance rating something different to the calculation above, or is it just an easy way for the game to display the STR requirement for the particular armor you have?

I take it the accuracy rating of a melee weapon is listed in the for of a + of - to hit bonus (or penalty)

How do the dice rolls work in a "to hit" calculation?

[nago]

With regard to Dex/Str levelling, it seems that Dex is the preferred attribute for melee fighters, so long as you have enough Str for what you need to do (Overcome encumbrance and carry stuff?)

If you are encumbered, drop junk. It's a total waste (and a loop) to raise str to have an higher weight limit to carry more garbage.

Is it Int for casters? (For more MP)

Yes, it's int but not for mp (it has no influence on mp) but essentially for spell power and secondarily for spell success and hunger cost.

The wiki states:

  Code:

you need 18 strength to avoid extra penalties from plate armour, since it has a base evasion penalty of -6.

I don't see a stat of -6 anywhere on my plate armor. I presume I'm fine wearing it, since my Str is over 18, but I like to understand why Is there just a list of known but unlisted base evasion penalties for different types of armor? If so, does anyone have a link? Is Encumbrance rating something different to the calculation above, or is it just an easy way for the game to display the STR requirement for the particular armor you have?

Until 0.12 the armour description showed the evp, and there was a precise str breakpoint for every armour class, after which increasing str provided no actual benefits - in the case of plate it was 3*|-6| = 18
In 0.13 formulas have been changed a bit, the progress is smoother and more gradual and there are some (minor) benefits for every bonus point of str - but dex is still better after you reached the min str to wear the optimal armour -the rule of thumb is you should have little more str than the encumbrance rating, so for a plate armor is 20ish.

[delarado]

With regard to Dex/Str levelling, it seems that Dex is the preferred attribute for melee fighters, so long as you have enough Str for what you need to do (Overcome encumbrance and carry stuff?)

If you are encumbered, drop junk. It's a total waste (and a loop) to raise str to have an higher weight limit to carry more garbage.

Is it Int for casters? (For more MP)

Yes, it's int but not for mp (it has no influence on mp) but essentially for spell power and secondarily for spell success and hunger cost.

The wiki states:

  Code:

you need 18 strength to avoid extra penalties from plate armour, since it has a base evasion penalty of -6.

I don't see a stat of -6 anywhere on my plate armor. I presume I'm fine wearing it, since my Str is over 18, but I like to understand why Is there just a list of known but unlisted base evasion penalties for different types of armor? If so, does anyone have a link? Is Encumbrance rating something different to the calculation above, or is it just an easy way for the game to display the STR requirement for the particular armor you have?

Until 0.12 the armour description showed the evp, and there was a precise str breakpoint for every armour class, after which increasing str provided no actual benefits - in the case of plate it was 3*|-6| = 18
In 0.13 formulas have been changed a bit, the progress is smoother and more gradual and there are some (minor) benefits for every bonus point of str - but dex is still better after you reached the min str to wear the optimal armour -the rule of thumb is you should have little more str than the encumbrance rating, so for a plate armor is 20ish.

Great thanks.

So just to check, Encumbrance rating of armor and whether you are encumbered or not (Carrying too much weight in stuff) are totally unrelated?

[Siegurt]

What are the scales? What does X represent? And Y? If you could take me through the graph quickly that would be great

X is your strength, Y is the associated penalty. The different lines represent different bits of armour. The lines which go down in a diagonal line then straight right are the armour in question using the old .12 formula, the smooth curve going down to the right is the current .13 formula (Representing the penalty slowly decreasing as your strength increases)

From bottom to top the colored lines representing armours:
Leather (Encumberance 4 armours)
Ring (Encumberance 7 armours),
Scale (Encumberance 11 Armours),
Chain (Encumberance 15 armours),
Plate (Encumberance 19 armours)
Crystal (Encuberance 24 armours),
Gold Dragon armour (Encumberance 27)

The resulting penalty is applied to your to-hit roll, up to twice to your Evasion (Once straight up, and once as a reduction to your dodging bonus), and represents a penalty to your spellcasting success rate.

If you find it confusing to look at both formulas at the same time you can hit the "x" on the right next to all the formulas with the word 'max' in them (those are the .12 formulas)

You can also add lines for the x and y graph points by changing the grid spacing at the bottom to '1' and of course if you do all that you probably want to save the thing (via the link at the bottom)

[Siegurt]

Encumbrance rating of armor and whether you are encumbered or not (Carrying too much weight in stuff) are totally unrelated?

Correct although carrying too much stuff also gives you some penalties which are similar to but in no way related to armour encumberance penalties.

[delarado]

Last question,

Im sure my +2 +0 god gift battle axe of flaming used to be better than it is currently. What gives? I Feel like it used to be a +2 +3 ?

[Wark]

I Feel like it used to be a +2 +3 ?

Some creatures (e.g. jellies) can corrode the weapons which you use to attack them, it has a chance to decrease the +damage enchantment (the second one). The weapon is immune if its +damage enchantment level >=5, although it is already almost guaranteed not to be corroded at +4. Artefacts cannot be changed by any means, so they are immune as well. Armour can be corroded in the same fashion if the acid attack hits you.

[delarado]

damnit, I just fought some jellies, that must be what it was! Thats annoying.

I have some enchant weapon scrolls so I might use them up to get it back up, and switch out for another weapon when facing jellies.