Weapon Categories; Swords and Maces?

[the_clanless]

I know this must be somewhere in the more specific calculations, but I was hoping to have a discussion about the weapon classes.

So, right now to me it seems we have happy shiny weapon classes and two sad ones, if I am wrong I would love to have someone show me the awesomeness I am not seeing. I am putting them in perceived order of awesomeness.

Please chime in!

EDITED: Added the slightly higher single target damage to swords, removed curse starvation, swing time on short blades,

Axes: Solid single and two handed types, and you can cleave up to 8 enemies at a time!!! Seems like THE choice for melee.
Problems: Hydras unless you get a flaming axe; deep dwarves mummies and other foes with "tar baby" powers you may wish to avoid hitting, but cannot because of the swing.

Pole-arms: Solid single and double handed options, both piercing and slashing available(for two handed at least), good brand variety, and built in reach!
Problems: Spears are really light hitting weapons, down there with short blades, so it can be painful till you find a trident or halberd. Slashing has hydra problems,

Unarmed Combat: Scales beautifully, incredible single target damage, hydra slaying, boosts from both dex and strength(unless this has changed) no RNG praying for a decent weapon.
Problems: HAVE to commit a lot of skill fast, not compatible with heavy armors, porcupines and acid blobs, no use for enchantment scrolls.

Short Blades: Stabbing! the perfect companion for stealth and hexes. Fast speed, ok damage, lots of brands.
Problems: Not effective UNLESS stabbing on heavily armored enemies,
Swing speed drops below .5 for quickblades on trunk! kobold berserker got down to .2 per swing while raging...

Staves: Nothing too special, but quarterstaff is one of the best basic early weapons, and there are a ton of specific brands for staves that makes hybridding with magic awesome, but also lets you whip out a lajatang or quarterstave of speed and lay out the beatings.
Problems: Nothing specifically built in... a staff of nothing sucks pretty hard, Overall not going away any time soon.

The (apparent) Losers:

Maces and Flails: Slightly better then long blades. Special end game whips, most possible brands including the nearly mace only protection, solid one and two handed versions, and hydras are suddenly not special.
Problems: No specific coolness...
Suggestion: Maybe just give all maces protection, the way all pole-arms got reach?

Long Blades: Umm... seem really sad now. Have triple and double swords, and blessed blades late in the game, but, they seem no better then maces and don't even have a specific enchantment like protection. EDIT Overall swords have a point higher damage and 10% faster swing on average compared to axes, making them arguably the highest singe target vying with maces.

Problems: hydras, hard to find a decent one early (falchions are pretty meh), Not much special except rare weapons late in game.
Suggestion: Maybe give long blades a Riposte ability, similar to Minotaur headbutts?

[crate]

Btw maces and long blades are not weak right now. In fact personally I think they are stronger than axes or polearms.

I hope it does not happen that every weapon type gets something special like cleaving or reaching (one weapon type should stay "plain"). It is true that maces and long blades are very similar right now for no real reason though.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Axes are lame now because of their low damage.

Double-sword/eveningstar are the highest base damage one-handers. triple sword is the highest base damage two-hander (except for giant clubs). Great mace is very common and the only weapons with higher damage are much rarer than it. Demon whip is one of the best weapons in the game.

[the_clanless]

Umm, according to the NUMBERS axes are fine... is there a hidden penalty? Compare a war axe to a longsword? hand axe to a falchion? Swing speed accuracy and damage numbers are all on par. And a broad axe, although a bit less accurate, has numbers on par with evening star and double sword. What am I missing?

[crate]

um hand axes are really terrible compared to falchions
and you should compare war axe to scimitar (similar rarity)
also how about comparing battleaxe to great sword!

[Siegurt]

Axes top out at 18 damage for an exec axe for 200% speed, Triple sword is 19/190%
BattleAxe is 15/170%, Greatsword is 16/160%
Broad axe is 13/160% Double sword is 15/150%
War axe is 11/150%, Scimitar is 12/140%, Demon blade is 13/130%
Hand axe is 7/130% falchion is 8/130%

By the numbers axes are just slightly worse across the board.

Now personally I think cleave more than makes up for it, but that's just an opinion.

[Siegurt]

Oh, he's probably looking at the old pre-cleave numbers on axes.

[the_clanless]

So you guys think a 5-10% damage increase is as good as cleave or reach? And what about maces, are they diffrent from longblades in any particular way?

Also, waraxes are ALL OVER the place. I have never gone past level with orc mines without finding an orc swinging one, long swords and scimitars have felt much more rare.

[Siegurt]

I think that most players fight 1 critter at a time most of the time, and fight them in situations where reach gets them maybe one extra attack. So cleave is irrelevant, and reach is mostly irrelevant.

Positioning yourself to take the most advantage of cleave or reach isn't necessarily optimally safe play, and so I think for many players they'd rather have the extra damage.

I do find that when I've been playing an axe user, I'm very sad when I play a melee user who doesn't have cleave though

[Wark]

and curse can be a death sentence by starvation

You can butcher with cursed blunt weapons in 0.12.

[Sandman25]

Hand Axe of Pain is the best possible weapon in 3-runes game IMHO

[Sandman25]

Reach allows kiting most monsters with Swiftness, that should not be underestimated. Hiding behind an ally and still attacking is great also.

[One-Eyed Jack]

You can kite monsters with swiftness and a <1 delay attack with any weapon, it's just more annoying

ps. remove worms from the game pls

[Siegurt]

Hand Axe of Pain is the best possible weapon in 3-runes game IMHO

Maybe, although in a 3 rune game, I'd rather not have to branch into necromancy if I'm not already going that route, I prefer Electrocution over Pain in most cases, plus you know, undead and demons.

I also do find that even with 1 higher delay, a battleaxe or exec axe with the same brand will do more damage than a hand axe, although you do lose the shield slot. Maybe not if you have necromancy trained high enough, but again, I wouldn't typically go into necromancy explicitly for melee damage.

[Silk]

You can kite monsters with swiftness and a <1 delay attack with any weapon, it's just more annoying

Not sure about this - but wouldn't the slight randomization in movement speed allow a few hits through in that case?

[Siegurt]

Yes, it's slightly safer to kite with a reach weapon than without, however the difference is pretty small (0 risk vs 1-in-20 risk of taking one hit) and generally speaking you should be able to survive *one* hit or you're just fighting the wrong thing.

Of course if you can take one hit but not two, kiting with a non-reach weapon becomes significantly more onerous, as you have to wander around without doing damage until you heal enough to whack on them again.

Generally though if you have to kite something that long you're doing something else very very wrong, most likely fighting whatever it is in the first place instead of walking away. (Which if your other option is "kiting them with swiftness" is always an option)

[Sandman25]

Hand Axe of Pain is the best possible weapon in 3-runes game IMHO

Maybe, although in a 3 rune game, I'd rather not have to branch into necromancy if I'm not already going that route, I prefer Electrocution over Pain in most cases, plus you know, undead and demons.

I also do find that even with 1 higher delay, a battleaxe or exec axe with the same brand will do more damage than a hand axe, although you do lose the shield slot. Maybe not if you have necromancy trained high enough, but again, I wouldn't typically go into necromancy explicitly for melee damage.

It's hard to have high Necromancy and Exec Axe at min delay early. I was lucky to find such hand axe at my last DD so I didn't train Axes high, it allowed me to train other skills instead and I decided to use a shield and 1-handed weapon. Though that was a mistake because the shield didn't allow me to get all 15 runes. Surprisingly the best thing for a 3 runes game can be a mistake for a 15 runes game. Or maybe not surprisingly, we have Trog in the same category already.

[Siegurt]

Well, sure, but on the other hand, I've seen pretty much no exec axes of pain, like, ever.

[Sandman25]

Well, sure, but on the other hand, I've seen pretty much no exec axes of pain, like, ever.

Maybe it's impossible to generate (without Kiku).

[Siegurt]

Well, exec axes are very very rare, and pain weapons are very very rare, It would not suprise me if it was possible and just incredibly unlikely.

[rchandra]

I have found one on the floor, once. It might have been in a vault, but it was just lying around (not in an obvious 'treasure area').

[Lasty]

So you guys think a 5-10% damage increase is as good as cleave or reach? And what about maces, are they diffrent from longblades in any particular way?

The actual damage increase from 1 point of base damage is way higher than 5-10%. You need to keep in mind that 1) base damage is multiplied by an amount based on your weapon and Fighting skills, and 2) AC is a flat reduction of damage.

1) means that one point of difference in the base damage can turn into many points of actual damage, especially when you consider that 2) means that that extra damage helps put more damage past AC. Against high AC targets, 2-3 points of extra damage could double the amount of actual damage you do per swing.

Edit: also flaming, freezing, and vorpal brands multiply your damage, increasing the effect of higher base damage further.

[crate]

The thing is also that it's not a 5-10% difference because 18/15 = 1.2, so you get 20% more damage for choosing maces instead of axes/polearms. (Comparing great mace to battleaxe/glaive).

My rule of thumb is that enchantment/slaying and AC tend to pretty much cancel out so comparing just base damage is fine for comparing weapons. This is obviously somewhat wrong but it's quick and easy.

You could use a bardiche/exec axe, but then you have to train all the way to skill 26, which is something I personally really hate having to do unless I'm worshipping Trog.

[Igxfl]

I was exploring the Long Blades vs. Polearms question on a recent series of Djinn Fighters. Here are the highlights of both weapon classes:

One Hand:
Spear: 6/110%
Falchion: 8/130%
Trident: 9/130%
(Demon Blade: 13/130%)
(Demon Trident: 12/130%)
Scimitar: 12/140%
Double Sword: 15/150%

Two Hand:
Great Sword: 16/160%
Glave: 15/170%
Triple Sword: 19/190%
Bardiche: 18/200%



Long Blades tend to trounce Polearms in damage and speed past the early game. However, characters choose to start with either Trident vs. Falchion, or Spear vs. Short Sword (with potential crosstraining into Long Blades), so Polearms has an easier beginning. Long Blades are also the only weapon type that aren't littered across D:1-4 like the corpses of your dead characters. I guess the defining characteristic of the weapon class is that it starts weak but scales very well as the game continues, sort of like UC generally does.