First Spellcaster?

[Plutonium]

So I've been religiously playing melee characters for quite awhile now and I feel like I need to branch out. Once I hit mid-late game I feel overwhelmed in certain situations and feel that I need a better grasp on the spell casting aspect of crawl. What better way than try out a spell caster?

What would you recommend for my first playthrough?

Any tips that I should really know?

[Sandman25]

DrWz. Not as fragile as DE, Wz background allows to have the highest possible Int. Go for Fire Storm with Vehumet.

[crate]

If you are picking Wz because of its int you are doing something wrong. The book it starts with is dramatically more important and the actual reason you should choose (or not choose) Wz.

Personally I don't like the Wz book much.

[scott9027]

- Pardon me for hijacking -

I could definitely relate to this thread, took the advice and have killed dozens of DrWz. High score was 245, so basically it's not going well at all. Any other character suggestions or tips for how to handle the early game as a caster would be great.

[the_clanless]

I am a suck caster, BUT I also branched out from melee so know what you are going through.

You will probably die suddenly and horribly, but a good combo to experiment with fro magic is spriggan fire elementalist or conjuror or wizard. Get used to running away, kiting, avoiding melee like the plague, recharging magic between fights.

For melee, you feel like you are "rolling" when unless it is a named bad guy or a crowd, you can smash through without taking much damage, slugging it out toe to toe.

For a caster, the equivalent is blowing up and neutralizing crowds of baddies before they realize they are on fire, at range. Also important is paralyzing, or blocking enemies, with clouds, confusion, petrification, slow, what have you. If you are fighting a fair fight as a caster, something is wrong.

My biggest successes were spriggan fire elementalists that got vehumet piety up, and got fireball. When you get tot he point you can chain cast 7 or eight fireballs, getting magic for your kills to throw more, with inner fire chain reacting and splattering orc bits all over the dungeon, and blow up a whole floor of orcs, it is pretty sweet.

[moocowmoocow]

For race I would go DE for high aptitudes. Main downside is low HP but that will force you to keep your distance from monsters. HE has slightly better HP and worse aptitudes.

As far as classes go, FE and Cj are both pretty straightforward. Schools like Ne, IE and EE I think are tailored more for hybrid than pure caster.

Vehumet is like the Trog of spellcasting. Sif is OK, and Ash can be a good choice as well.

[tasonir]

Given the background of having played melee, I think doing a more straight forward caster is a better choice. Wz are great because of their flexibility and many options, which isn't something you want someone just getting into casters to deal with right away.

Play a DEFE. Basically the magic equivalent of MiBe. Level 1 you don't have much range, but level 2's throw flame is pretty long. You have amazing spellcasting aptitudes so you can move up in spells quickly. Still go vehemut, she's awesome. When you can finally cast fireball, you get 20% off the mana cost and +1 range. Sticky flame is powerful but it's melee range only - I tend to try to throw flame everything to death first and only if they are still alive by the time they get to you, sticky and then walk backwards.

Eventually firestorm, which won't take terribly long due to your awesome aptitudes. Also haste, of course, because crawl loves no-brainer spells like haste.

[rchandra]

I like the Dr recommendation because of Dr's free AC, ok aptitudes, and good HP. But since you are dealing with only OK aptitudes instead of great ones like DE, I like DrEE. Since your big spell in the starting book is Earth instead of Earth/Conj, you don't need as much Conjurations (still get some of course). Similarly if you go for a level 9 spell, Shatter is easier to get then a storm. DrCj would also be good.

That said nothing wrong with DEFE - I think my first blaster win was DEIE (go Ozo armour!)

Tasonir: vehumet doesn't grant MP discounts as of 0.12.

[Silk]

Given the background of having played melee, I think doing a more straight forward caster is a better choice. Wz are great because of their flexibility and many options, which isn't something you want someone just getting into casters to deal with right away.

Play a DEFE. Basically the magic equivalent of MiBe. Level 1 you don't have much range, but level 2's throw flame is pretty long. You have amazing spellcasting aptitudes so you can move up in spells quickly. Still go vehemut, she's awesome. When you can finally cast fireball, you get 20% off the mana cost and +1 range. Sticky flame is powerful but it's melee range only - I tend to try to throw flame everything to death first and only if they are still alive by the time they get to you, sticky and then walk backwards.

Eventually firestorm, which won't take terribly long due to your awesome aptitudes. Also haste, of course, because crawl loves no-brainer spells like haste.

Seconded. DEFE are fragile and in many situations take only one wasted turn to die - but they are very straightforward to play and will get you well into the midgame very often so you can get to know the magic system.

[Sandman25]

If you are picking Wz because of its int you are doing something wrong. The book it starts with is dramatically more important and the actual reason you should choose (or not choose) Wz.

Int is very important if you want to get level 9 spell. Wz allows to get +3 Int comparing to FE/IE/Cj. Also Wz is slightly better than FE/IE for Dr because it does not interfere with changed aptitudes when maturing - FE turning white or IE turing red is not very pleasant.

Personally I don't like the Wz book much.

I still have troubles with effective use of Imps but consider Conjure Flame the best spell from FE book and it is present in Wz book too. Mephitic Cloud and Repel missiles are very useful spells too. With Vehumet you can get elemental spells from desired school usually.

[Sandman25]

- Pardon me for hijacking -

I could definitely relate to this thread, took the advice and have killed dozens of DrWz. High score was 245, so basically it's not going well at all. Any other character suggestions or tips for how to handle the early game as a caster would be great.

Do you have some morgue files to create a new thread in "YASD! YAVP!" forum? It's hard to give advices without seeing how the characters die/develop.

[joellercoaster]

I don't think Dr is a good "my first anything" race. You need to do a reasonable amount of thinking on your feet right at the point in the game where new players are having tactical problems, and you need to play differently each game.

The new Conjurer is an uncomplicated, fun class - yes DE are fragile but the playstyle is extremely straightforward, a purification of the spellcaster mechanics and very strong at them. New Vehumet is also low-maintenance and helpful.

Give Deep Elf Conjurer of Vehumet a go.

[ackack]

I don't think Dr is a good "my first anything" race. You need to do a reasonable amount of thinking on your feet right at the point in the game where new players are having tactical problems, and you need to play differently each game.

I strongly disagree. Dr make excellent casters for the reasons rchandra describes. You can take way more early punishment than a race like DE, but your aptitudes are still decent and quite flexible. I don't think that the level 7 color gain really presents that much of a problem at all, especially if you pick a class like DrCj that isn't likely to be making any elemental decisions before then. Plus, the breath weapon you gain is yet another tool for characters that may not have their offense fully powered up yet. My first win was a 15 rune DrCj and I think it's a very nice choice for somebody who wants to play one of the casting classes.

[FalconNL]

My only three wins have been Deep Elf Wizards of Vehumet/Sif Muna, and as such can heartily recommend them. General gameplay should proceed along the following lines:

For the first couple dungeon floors you can kill things with magic dart. Train Spellcasting and Conjurations. All skill points should go to INT. Learn summon Imp, blink and mephitic cloud as soon as possible. Get a few levels of Translocations and Summoning to get failure chances down to 4% or less (Shouldn't take more than 3 levels). Use magic dart on easy enemies, spam summon imp on anything armored, and use meph cloud on dangerous foes (orc wizards/priests, ogres, uniques). The most annoying part is around the time you hit Lair, where you probably haven't found any books yet and there have been no gifts yet. Try to survive until you do, at which point you can transition to midgame attack spells: IMB, battlesphere, fireball, etc. This will make things much easier. Also learn some utility spells, such as Haste and RMsl. Continue until you get either fire or ice storm (with heavy preference for fire storm). Focus all your efforts on getting this castable as soon as humanly possible, and ideally hungerless (37 INT + 27 Spellcasting or similar variations). If possible, use a staff of power/ring of magical power for more MP. If not, use something that boosts spell power. If not worshipping Sif Muna, get a crystal ball or something else that allows you to recover MP. Once you have storm online, ROFLstomp everything and win.

[Sandman25]

I think the best approach is to try DE. If it gets killed, try Dr. If it gets killed too, for next game choose what you liked more.

[DracheReborn]

I also tend to do much better with my melee-heavy characters than caster types. For me, I find DE and Sp a little too squishy (I'm too used to melee dudes with high HP and plate, I guess). Dr is a good choice for sturdy casters. Hu isn't bad too.

I'm not sure Wz is a good background for a novice. The starting book is very useful, but tricky - Mephitic and Conj Flame can actually kill lots of things once you get the hang of it, but the novice player is more likely to lean on Magic Dart too heavily (I did, at least). Something like Cj or FE is a lot more straightforward as far as blasting enemies go.

Personally I don't like the Wz book much.

Can you explain a bit more? Is it because of having to train many different schools? Or the lack of higher level spells?

[BlackSheep]

I can't speak for crate, but those are my reasons for not liking it. Well, that and you really need to lean on Call Imp and I hate summoning.

[tasonir]

Tasonir: vehumet doesn't grant MP discounts as of 0.12.

Doh. This makes me sad. Not that veh's in any way weak, though

[crate]

Int is very important if you want to get level 9 spell.

no

@DracheReborn: I don't like the Wz book because I do not like the spells in it.

[mopl]

If you want to discover spellcaster, I think that Wz is a good BG for its book (even if crate doesn't like the spells )
My first spellcaster win was a DEWz who branched in fire magic ASAP.
Wz book allows you to survive the beginning of the game easily thanks to Call Imp and Blink. Conjure Flame is good to flee in a corridor

[Psieye]

Personally, I learnt to play spellcasters by going DEWz - the extra MP at the very start of the game gave me breathing space as I fumbled about. But now that I've got the hang of spellcaster tactics, I'd recommend a 0.12 Cj to get started on learning blasters. There's numerous ways to grow a Cj but I prefer going straight for Mystic Blast and then getting the Battlesphere online, with a detour to grab Dazzling Spray (and ignoring force lance until much later).

The key (and pretty obvious) difference between melee tactics vs blaster tactics is what your 'safety buffer' is. For (pure) melee, it's your HP: when a reasonably picked fight starts sending you below ~60% HP, that is when you should consider disengaging and coming back later. For (pure) blasters, it's distance: if you let something walk to within ~3 squares away from you, that's the time you should consider disengaging and coming back later. Mind, crawl welcomes hybrid approaches if you can budget your EXP competently to pull it off, in which case your buffer would be different again.

I like the Wz book - for when I want to build a hybrid, not a pure spellcaster.

[moocowmoocow]

I don't think Dr is a good "my first anything" race. You need to do a reasonable amount of thinking on your feet right at the point in the game where new players are having tactical problems, and you need to play differently each game.

I strongly disagree. Dr make excellent casters for the reasons rchandra describes. You can take way more early punishment than a race like DE, but your aptitudes are still decent and quite flexible. I don't think that the level 7 color gain really presents that much of a problem at all, especially if you pick a class like DrCj that isn't likely to be making any elemental decisions before then. Plus, the breath weapon you gain is yet another tool for characters that may not have their offense fully powered up yet. My first win was a 15 rune DrCj and I think it's a very nice choice for somebody who wants to play one of the casting classes.

Instead of having a breath weapon to compensate for underpowered offense, why not just take full powered offense from high aptitudes? "Taking more punishment" is a bad mindset to cultivate for playing a long range blaster. You're supposed to be killing stuff before they can dish out any major damage on you. Dr is slow leveling so you can't even benefit from the breath and extra AC until you survive awhile on your starting offense.

[crate]

Dr is the strongest race in the game that isn't fast (Ce, Sp) or really dumb (DD).

[DeathKnyte]

... What better way than try out a spell caster?

What would you recommend for my first playthrough?

...

MuWz

Good for new players, or those that don't have much experience with spellcasters, and want to get into it without other concerns.
Takes out the food mini game (spell hunger) in the equation, and lessens inventory management (potions are irrelevant).
You can concentrate on individual spells you memorize and want to try out, tactics, effects, etc.
Undead status, resist (careful about the fire though), immunities, abilities.
You have all the time in the world.
Go with Sif Muna to learn and use (from) a broad spectrum, and not worry about mana management too much either.

[Plutonium]

Thank you everyone for your uber informative posts! I fiddled around with some of the suggestions before bed last night and am thoroughly enjoying my DEFE. If he doesn't splat anytime soon I'll post a CIP once I hit lair.

[rebthor]

I can't speak for crate, but those are my reasons for not liking it. Well, that and you really need to lean on Call Imp and I hate summoning.

It's even worse in trunk. I can't imagine how Wz will play without summon imp spam.

[Tiber]

Seriously? How will the poor wizards survive with only a ranged attack, a simple way to gain distance from enemies, a poor man's haste, protection from ranged attacks, an effective means of area confusion, a spell that can be used to deal constant fire damage, and only three imps?! I've skipped call imp entirely, and it's still a pretty effective starting book.

[crate]

a poor man's haste

i'm really curious what spell you think this is

[DracheReborn]

a poor man's haste

i'm really curious what spell you think this is

Slow?

[SeriousVlad]

In my opinion, wizards are one of the best choices for starting casters (Another one is Cj). High mana pools and high flexibility for new books (which are random) are great perks for newbie caster.

[Psieye]

I feel the flexibility is exactly why it's not friendly to a newbie learning casters. Every caster has flexibility with new books once they survive past Lair.

[Klown]

Deep Elf Conjurer of Cheibriados. Take it easy, dude.

[Wark]

Deep Elf Conjurer of Cheibriados. Take it easy, dude.

I hope you are not serious. DE are already fragile, and with Chei you lose the ability to run away from stuff; certainly not what I'd be looking forward to when learning to play casters.

FWIW my first "dedicated" caster who managed to get a rune (and later win) was TeFE of Sif, so I'd personally recommend trying something straightforward such as DrCj or the aforementioned TeFE.

[delarado]

I've been playing around with a DeCj recently, And I keep dying before D:6; As soon as I get to a group of enemies, I just die. I dont seem to be able to run away, most things seem to be faster than me, and i dont have enough MP Or HP to just DPS them down. If its more than 2 or 3 gnolls or orcs or anything, I just run out of MP And die, and I Cant get away from them. What am I doing wrong? I don't even get to the stage of choosing a god! I found the temple in this last character, but the sif alter wasnt in there. I then went downstairs and died. I seem to always be hungry with no food and not really capable of killing much, I dont have an escape mechanism, no crowd control and just generally I don't know what to do?! Dazzling spray doesnt always work as a disable either...

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.12.2 (tiles) character file.

767 *** the Conjurer (level 7, 0/39 HPs)
             Began as a Deep Elf Conjurer on July 10, 2013.
             Slain by a gnoll shaman
             ... wielding a +0,+0 whip
              (4 damage)
             ... on Level 5 of the Dungeon on July 14, 2013.
             The game lasted 00:24:23 (5066 turns).

*** the Conjurer (Deep Elf Conjurer)               Turns: 5066, Time: 00:24:23

HP   0/39        AC  3     Str  5      XL: 7   Next:  7%
MP   7/18        EV  2     Int 22      God:
Gold 217         SH  0     Dex 15      Spells:  3 memorised,  3 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : +   j - +0 sling
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   m - +0 elf robe (curse)
Life Prot.: + + +   Conserve   : .   (no shield)
Res.Poison: +       Res.Corr.  : .   (no helmet)
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   u - +0 cloak
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   (no gloves)
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   (no boots)
Res.Rott. : +       Ctrl.Telep.: .   (no amulet)
Saprovore : . . .   Flight     : .   (no ring)
                                     (no ring)

@: petrified, nauseated, very slightly contaminated, slightly resistant to
hostile enchantments, fairly stealthy
A: hooves 1, see invisible, +10% hp
a: no special abilities


You were on level 5 of the Dungeon.
You were near starving.

You visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and saw 6 of its levels.

You collected 197 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 j - a +0,+0 sling (weapon)
 n - a cursed +0,-1 mace
Missiles
 d - 14 poisoned needles
 f - 30 stones (quivered)
Armour
 a - a +0 elven robe
 m - a cursed +0 elven robe (worn)
 u - a +0 cloak (worn)
Magical devices
 k - a wand of digging (10) {unknown}
Comestibles
 v - 3 chunks of gnoll flesh
 B - a chunk of rat flesh
Scrolls
 e - 2 scrolls of blinking
 g - 3 scrolls of teleportation
 h - a scroll of curse weapon {unknown}
 i - 4 scrolls of identify
 q - 2 scrolls of noise {unknown}
 r - 2 scrolls of fog
 s - a scroll of enchant armour {unknown}
 t - a scroll of enchant weapon I {unknown}
 w - 2 scrolls of curse jewellery {unknown}
 y - a scroll of remove curse
Jewellery
 b - an uncursed ring of regeneration
 l - an uncursed ring of teleport control {unknown}
 o - a cursed ring of teleportation {unknown}
 p - an uncursed ring of flight {unknown}
Potions
 x - a potion of might
 z - a potion of heal wounds
 A - a potion of magic
Books
 c - a book of Conjurations   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Magic Dart                        Conjuration                  1
   *Force Lance                       Conjuration                  2
   *Dazzling Spray                    Conjuration/Hexes            3
   Iskenderun's Mystic Blast          Conjuration                  4
   Iskenderun's Battlesphere          Conjuration/Charms           4
   Fulminant Prism                    Conjuration/Hexes            5


   Skills:
 - Level 2.4 Dodging
 - Level 2.4 Stealth
 - Level 1.5 Spellcasting
 + Level 9.3 Conjurations


You had 3 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Magic Dart            Conj           #####        1%          1    #......
b - Force Lance           Conj           ######.      1%          2    ###....
c - Dazzling Spray        Conj/Hex       ####.....    8%          3    ####...


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (5/27)             Temple (1/1) D:4         

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Elyvilon
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
the Shining One


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You have large cloven feet.
You have supernaturally acute eyesight.
You are robust (+10% HP).


Message History

You see here 3 darts.
The gnoll shaman calls down the wrath of its god upon you.
You are slowing down.
The gnoll throws a dart. The dart hits you! The gnoll completely misses you.
The gnoll hits you from afar with a spear.
Your limbs are stiffening.
There is a stone staircase leading up here.
The gnoll shaman hits you with a whip!
The gnoll hits you from afar with a spear!
You have turned to stone.
You are no longer glowing.
The gnoll hits you from afar with a spear.
The gnoll shaman hits you with a whip. The gnoll hits you with a whip!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The gnoll hits you from afar with a spear!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The gnoll hits you from afar with a spear.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The gnoll shaman hits you with a whip!
You die...

........<..................#
..............(............#
...........................#
.###########...............#
.#         #...............#
.#         #...............#
.#         #...............#
.#         #...............#
.#         #...............#
.#         #...............#
.#         #...............#
.#         #...............#
.###########...............#
.˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜......>........#
.˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜..........@....#
.˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜.........gg....#
.˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜.........(g....#
.˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜........(......#
.˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜.......(..))...#
..................(........#
...........................#
...........................#
...........................#
...........................#
...........................#
...........................#
....(...(.(................#
..............[............#
.˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜˜.............>.#


You could see a gnoll shaman and 2 gnolls.

Vanquished Creatures
  An ogre (D:5)
  A phantom (D:5)
  The ghost of Slopmeister the Ruinous, an average DECj (D:4)
  A giant frog skeleton (D:4)
  A scorpion (D:4)
  2 worker ants (D:5)
  2 gnolls (D:5)
  6 adders
  2 giant mites
  2 worms
  A giant gecko (D:4)
  2 oozes
  5 orcs
  5 giant cockroaches
  11 goblins
  6 hobgoblins
  10 jackals
  7 kobolds
  A quokka (D:5)
  10 bats
  6 giant newts
  13 rats
96 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A ball python (D:2)
1 creature vanquished.

Grand Total: 97 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | ***, the Deep Elf Conjurer, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 10/10 MP: 4/4
   120 | D:2      | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations
   120 | D:2      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 15/15 MP: 4/6
   506 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 7/19 MP: 0/9
   966 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Force Lance
  1316 | D:2      | Reached skill level 6 in Conjurations
  1578 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 24/24 MP: 8/11
  3032 | D:3      | Gained mutation: You have supernaturally acute eyesight. [potion of mutation]
  3032 | D:3      | Gained mutation: You have large cloven feet. [potion of mutation]
  3032 | D:3      | Gained mutation: You are robust (+10% HP). [potion of mutation]
  3055 | D:4      | Reached skill level 7 in Conjurations
  3055 | D:4      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 21/30 MP: 9/13
  3062 | D:3      | Learned a level 3 spell: Dazzling Spray
  3873 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  3876 | D:5      | Noticed a phantom
  3884 | D:5      | Killed a phantom
  3884 | D:5      | Reached skill level 8 in Conjurations
  3884 | D:5      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 35/35 MP: 4/16
  3973 | D:4      | Paralysed by a potion of paralysis for 3 turns
  4134 | D:4      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  4162 | D:4      | Noticed Slopmeister's ghost (average DECj)
  4176 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  4503 | D:4      | Killed Slopmeister's ghost
  4950 | D:5      | Reached skill level 9 in Conjurations
  5027 | D:5      | Noticed an ogre
  5031 | D:5      | Killed an ogre
  5031 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 39/39 MP: 12/18
  5066 | D:5      | Slain by a gnoll shaman


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Unarmed           |     8 |       |       ||     8
 Cast: Magic Dart        |    75 |   106 |     2 ||   183
       Force Lance       |       |     9 |       ||     9
       Dazzling Spray    |       |    18 |     1 ||    19
  Use: Scroll            |     7 |     3 |       ||    10
       Potion            |     2 |     7 |     1 ||    10



[delarado]

So, I just been playing around with a spriggan fire elementalist as someone said they arent too bad above. Was really enjoying it (Even though I spawned, moved 1 tile and saw two jackals, a kobold and an adder)

Literally a ridiculous game, within 10 moves I somehow had ten enemies chasing me, but I managed to avoid them all, kite, kill, run, stair dance, bla bla - spriggans are so fast its great.

Thought that inner flame would be an awesome crowd control spell, I'd never seen it before so tested it out as soon as I got it memorised..

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.12.2 (tiles) character file.

475 name the Magician (level 6, -19/23 (28) HPs)
             Began as a Spriggan Fire Elementalist on July 15, 2013.
             Engulfed by their own flame (20 damage)
             ... on Level 3 of the Dungeon.
             The game lasted 00:26:07 (5275 turns).

name the Magician (Spriggan Fire Elementalist)      Turns: 5275, Time: 00:26:07

HP -19/23 (28)   AC  2     Str  4      XL: 6   Next: 43%
MP   8/18        EV 18     Int 18      God:
Gold 102         SH  0     Dex 17      Spells:  3 memorised,  6 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : +   p - +0 elf dagger
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   f - +0 robe
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .   (shield restricted)
Res.Poison: .       Res.Corr.  : .   (helmet restricted)
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   (no cloak)
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   (gloves unavailable)
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   (boots unavailable)
Res.Rott. : .       Ctrl.Telep.: +   (no amulet)
Saprovore : . . .   Flight     : .   (no ring)
                                     e - ring of teleport control

@: very quick, somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, stealthy
A: unfitting armour, see invisible, herbivore 3, speed 3, slow metabolism 2
a: no special abilities


You were on level 3 of the Dungeon.
You were very hungry.

You visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and saw 3 of its levels.

You collected 82 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 d - a +1,+0 dagger (quivered)
 p - a +0,+0 elven dagger (weapon)
Missiles
 k - 18 poisoned needles
 q - 5 needles of frenzy
Armour
 a - a +0 robe
 f - a +0 robe (worn)
Magical devices
 h - a wand of magic darts (2) {unknown}
Comestibles
 g - 2 bread rations
Scrolls
 i - 2 scrolls of remove curse
 l - a scroll of blinking
 n - a scroll of recharging {unknown}
Jewellery
 e - a ring of teleport control (left hand)
 j - an uncursed amulet of clarity {unknown}
Potions
 c - a potion of porridge
 m - a potion of curing
Books
 b - a book of Flames   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Flame Tongue                      Conjuration/Fire             1
   *Throw Flame                       Conjuration/Fire             2
   Conjure Flame                      Conjuration/Fire             3
   *Inner Flame                       Hexes/Fire                   3
   Sticky Flame                       Conjuration/Fire             4
   Fireball                           Conjuration/Fire             5


   Skills:
 - Level 3.0 Dodging
 - Level 3.0 Stealth
 - Level 3.9 Spellcasting
 + Level 2.9 Conjurations
 + Level 2.3 Hexes
 + Level 3.9 Fire Magic


You had 6 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Flame Tongue          Conj/Fire      ####..       4%          1    None
b - Throw Flame           Conj/Fire      ####...      8%          2    ##.....
c - Inner Flame           Hex/Fire       ###......    14%         3    ###....


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (3/27)           

Altars:
the Shining One

Annotations
D:2 Sigmund


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are tiny and cannot use many weapons and most armour.
You have supernaturally acute eyesight.
You are a herbivore.
You cover ground extremely quickly.
You need consume almost no food.


Message History

You are feeling very hungry.
Casting: Throw Flame
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Throw Flame
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - adder
Aim: an adder (severely wounded, inner flame)
The puff of flame misses the adder. The adder closely misses you.
Casting: Throw Flame
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Flame Tongue
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - adder
Aim: an adder (severely wounded, inner flame)
The flame hits the adder.
The adder explodes!
The fiery explosion engulfs you!
Ouch! That really hurt!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You are engulfed in roaring flames.
Ouch! That really hurt!
You die...

#.#
#.#
#.#
#.#
..#
###
#                    ###
#                  #...#
#                ###...##
#               .#.......#
                 ........#
   .              .......#
   .#              #§§§#.#
   ..              #§§§#.#
   .#                #@#.#
###.###          #.###.#.#
......#          #.......#
.#..#.##..       #####.####
.#......%).       #.......#
...........       #.##.##.#
.#.##.###..       #.#..##.#
.#.##             #.#.###.#
.#..# #           #.......#
.##.#.#           ###)#####
.##.#.##########    #<#
......#....._..#    #.#
###.###.#.###>.######.#
  #.###.#.#...........#
  #...........>########


There were no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  A necrophage (D:3)
  2 orc priests (D:3)
  A scorpion (D:3)
  An orc wizard (D:3)
  5 adders
  A giant gecko (D:2)
  An ooze (D:3)
  13 orcs (D:3)
  8 bats
  3 giant cockroaches
  10 goblins
  3 hobgoblins
  8 jackals
  4 quokkas
  5 giant newts
  9 kobolds
  6 rats
81 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A goblin (D:1)
1 creature vanquished.

Grand Total: 82 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | name, the Spriggan Fire Elementalist, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 9/9 MP: 4/4
   203 | D:1      | You fall through a shaft!
   514 | D:2      | Reached skill level 1 in Conjurations
   521 | D:2      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 13/13 MP: 3/6
   868 | D:2      | Learned a level 2 spell: Throw Flame
   961 | D:2      | Noticed Sigmund
  1029 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 16/16 MP: 9/9
  2676 | D:3      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 21/21 MP: 1/13
  3428 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 24/24 MP: 11/16
  3431 | D:3      | Noticed a necrophage
  4288 | D:3      | Learned a level 3 spell: Inner Flame
  4730 | D:3      | Killed a necrophage
  4730 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Hexes
  4730 | D:3      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 8/27 MP: 1/18
  5242 | D:3      | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
  5275 | D:3      | HP: 1/23 [adder/exploding inner flame[the player character] (22)]
  5275 | D:3      | Engulfed by their own flame


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Dagger            |    34 |    16 ||    50
 Cast: Flame Tongue      |    44 |    15 ||    59
       Throw Flame       |    37 |   101 ||   138
       Inner Flame       |       |     3 ||     3
  Use: Scroll            |     6 |     1 ||     7
       Potion            |     3 |     2 ||     5
 Stab: Sleeping          |     3 |     1 ||     4


*facepalm*

[bobross419]

It may be contrary to standard advice, but I'm always most successful with my casters when I train Spellcasting and focus Schools (+Spellcasting, *Conjure)... I much prefer melee and for whatever reason my MP usually runs out quickly. Training SC alongside my school means I usually have enough mana for whatever I need most of the time.

This build has worked for me many, many times.... DeFe... Immediately at the start switch to manual training and +Spellcasting, *Fire, *Conjure... then just go kill stuff. Conjure flame will be online in no time and once you have that crowd control spell things get much easier. Sticky Flame and Fireball don't take too long either. Should easily get you through Lair, literally the only problem is Imps - but a solid whacking stick or wand should take care of that... by that point Veh should have been gifting you all sorts of cool spells. If you just keep training the three you should have Fire Storm online before Vaults.

Triple training may not be "optimal", but it works for me.

[Sandman25]

Gnolls have the same speed as DE has. Retreat (about 10 moves) as soon as you see a Gnoll, that can allow you to fight only 1-2 Gnolls instead of 5-6. After killing the first Gnolls you can replenish your MP and proceed with killing next 2. If you see that you cannot kill some monsters, retreat upstairs with some MP left, don't wait until you have 0 MP. The remaining MP can allow you to kill a monster who used the upstairs together with you. Later you will have Conjure Flame so you will almost never have a Gnoll adjacent to you (Dazzling Spray can be useful if you are unlucky to get adjacent to a monster behind a corner).

Don't train Hexes on SpFE.

[joellercoaster]

I dont seem to be able to run away, most things seem to be faster than me

This is largely an illusion, and once you understand it and where to move in certain situations (in particular, understand corridors and corners), your overall Crawl success rate will improve regardless of your character background.

Even as a DE there is actually not much that is faster than you. In terms of things that come in groups and move fast at that stage of the game, jackals are the only thing that come to mind. But they do very little damage one on one and die quickly to just about anything (magic dart, even). So make sure they don't surround you (corridors and corners), and you will be fine.

Most everything else, you really can just walk away from.

[edit: By 'corridors and corners' I mean more than just only fighting one thing at a time in melee. You will learn that if a group has five orcs in it, you don't need to fight five orcs if you only have the MP to take down two at a time. Lure one or two of them away - they do not flock and they don't all see what the others see. Even if a bunch of them are chasing you, go around enough corners and some monsters will lose interest.

In particular - if a monster shouts at you, then other monsters nearby will come to see what is going on - but they won't follow the first monster unless they actually arrive there and see you. So when something spots you, move. Then when reinforcements arrive, you are not there to be seen. Move sufficiently far away that when you do turn and fight the first one, others in its group aren't around too.]

[Siegurt]

Also make sure you move diagonally around corners, this is the thing that trips up a lot of new-to-roguelikes.

Make sure you always do a,b,c,d:

  Code:

##D
##C
AB


*not* a,b,q,c,d:

  Code:

##E
##D
ABQ


The move from B to C, while skipping Q looks simple, but in more complicated situations, it's not always obvious at a glance what the shortest path is. Take your time.

Always retreat towards an area you've cleared out even against a creature you can beat easily (The noise of combat will draw out other nearby baddies) and always rest to full MP before you explore again.

[delarado]

Don't train Hexes on SpFE.

I dont understand how skills work... I started training hexes because inner flame said it was a hex on the spells screen, monsters kept resisting it, I had a 25% failure rate and i figured thatd make it better and more successful...

Does anyone have links on how skills work for casters?

For example ive been playing a TrBe a lot and training only UC at the beginning, however, with a spell caster, Im not sure what the equivalent is, as different spells fall in different schools, and then you have the spellcasting school itself...

[delarado]

Thanks, I have got the hang of that now, the problem I find though is even though I can often stop a monster being able to attack me with movement, I am often unable to gain any ground on it either, so I cannot really run away from it, I can just run in circles with it chasing me.

Thats fine, until something else shows up... I know its just practice, but I often find myself getting overwhelmed when trying to run away from things when I have low MP. I havent really been doing any melee at all with casters (Except my spriggan which I do pick up a dagger and try to stab sleeping stuff)

Is that correct? OR should I carry some sort of weapon to melee if i need to?

Also make sure you move diagonally around corners, this is the thing that trips up a lot of new-to-roguelikes.

Make sure you always do a,b,c,d:

  Code:

##D
##C
AB


*not* a,b,q,c,d:

  Code:

##E
##D
ABQ


The move from B to C, while skipping Q looks simple, but in more complicated situations, it's not always obvious at a glance what the shortest path is. Take your time.

Always retreat towards an area you've cleared out even against a creature you can beat easily (The noise of combat will draw out other nearby baddies) and always rest to full MP before you explore again.

[Siegurt]

The trick is to run away *first* before you fight something and run out of mana.

It goes:
1. See a critter, hopefully it sees you, if not use a level 1 spell or throw a rock or dart or something at it.
2. Walk back into an area that you've already cleared, if it's a new level walk back to the upstaircase. Note that you need roughly 16 spaces between your target and any black areas to make sure you aren't heard.
2a. If you don't have enough space because it's a new level, wait on the up staircase and zap them at range until they are next to you, go upstairs and finish blasting them there.
3. Wait (heal) with '5' until your MP is full to start exploring new areas.

Strategically, what you're looking for (for spell success and for damage done) is spell power, this is nearly all generated by the average of the spell schools listed next to the spell (Conjuration for magic dart, fire and conjuration for throw flame, etc.) On the spell casting screen you can hit '!' to see what your power (And food consumption) generally looks like (it's the number of #'s in the power column) If you are running out of MP before killing creatures then either you don't have enough power, or are fighting too large of a critter. Generally I train my primary damage spell schools to between 6 and 8 before I train any spellcasting, Typically I train spellcasting to 3 then move back to damage schools.

Don't cast any spells who have a failure rate over 10%, generally mis-casting is a waste of turns and mana, and at higher levels entails serious risks of blowing yourself up.

Inner flame is great once you know how to use it, and have enough points to make it viable as a strategy, however since it's your only hex spell as a fire elementalist it doesn't help the rest of your spells at all. I'd just use fire to get it to that point (or perhaps put 1-2 points in hexes once fire's up to around 10) Keep in mind Inner flame is only useful if you have enough mana to kill the creature once you've gotten the hex to stick, and only if you can kill them at range. It's a very effective but also very limited use spell (A lot of people just skip it)

[Tiber]

Thanks, I have got the hang of that now, the problem I find though is even though I can often stop a monster being able to attack me with movement, I am often unable to gain any ground on it either, so I cannot really run away from it, I can just run in circles with it chasing me.

Thats fine, until something else shows up... I know its just practice, but I often find myself getting overwhelmed when trying to run away from things when I have low MP. I havent really been doing any melee at all with casters (Except my spriggan which I do pick up a dagger and try to stab sleeping stuff)

Is that correct? OR should I carry some sort of weapon to melee if i need to?

Even if you're not gaining ground, you're regaining health and mana (but keep in mind the enemy regains health faster than you do). It also takes turns for monsters to attack you as well, so you can use that opportunity to break away. Lure it up stairs if you can. You also have consumables if you need them.

As to whether or not you should melee, that depends on how much you can afford to be hit. If you can't, then you should have started running before the enemy got into melee range. For a Spriggan or a Deep Elf, the answer is probably no. The most compelling reason to pick up a melee weapon though is for enemies that resist your spells. Decide whether or not it's worth it to train a weapon, and if not just avoid that enemy until you're stronger, then come back if the exp is worth it.

[Lasty]

For my money, Dr is a challenging first caster race. Their aptitudes aren't particularly good, and their Int is on the low side (but so much useless strength!). As such, players who aren't yet practiced at leveling magic skills will potentially fall behind the skill level curve. They also lose access to robes, meaning that they can't get the "of resistance" or "archmage" egos, and they can't wear fully-enchanted mottled dragon armour for solid AC. In exchange, they get a decent HP pool, modestly improved AC (as compared with robes), a randomly-assigned resistance, and a breath weapon that may well do little that they don't already do.

Not that I'm saying draconians aren't good, just that I probably wouldn't recommend them for a player who is trying casters for the first time.

[Siegurt]

Note that 'picking up a weapon and beating things with it' is not the same as 'training a weapon' especially at the early levels using a weapon (particularly one with a to-hit bonus) is very effective even with no training. Short swords, Daggers, Hand axes, most excellently quarterstaves, pretty much anything a starting player might have, work pretty decently against low level critters even with no training at all. That rat or bat isn't going to kill you, go ahead, beat it down with a stick and save your mana for that hobgoblin or gnoll. If you get unlucky and they hurt you and you don't hurt them, just switch out to blasting them.

[crate]

um dr apts and int are the same as humans (ok there are a few minor differences that don't matter in apts), except they get really nice bonuses in addition

you are crazy if you don't think that's good

As far as "can't wear fully-enchanted mda", that's true. Instead they get a fully-enchanged MDA for free by existing.

[Siegurt]

For my money, Dr is a challenging first caster race. Their aptitudes aren't particularly good, and their Int is on the low side (but so much useless strength!). As such, players who aren't yet practiced at leveling magic skills will potentially fall behind the skill level curve. They also lose access to robes, meaning that they can't get the "of resistance" or "archmage" egos, and they can't wear fully-enchanted mottled dragon armour for solid AC. In exchange, they get a decent HP pool, modestly improved AC (as compared with robes), a randomly-assigned resistance, and a breath weapon that may well do little that they don't already do.

Not that I'm saying draconians aren't good, just that I probably wouldn't recommend them for a player who is trying casters for the first time.

Draconians have exactly average Int, they lose access to archmage ego, which is very rare, and have an intrinsic resistance which makes up for the lack of one on body armour.
They have more HP and AC, an extra attack, and a breath weapon, in short, they have a LOT of power and resilience when they run out of MP early on, which contributes heavily to the likelihood you'll stay alive as a spellcaster.

The reason they're recommended for beginning spellcasters is because a lot of the mistakes made by learning spellcasters is with MP management, and having a bit more staying power and the ability to thump things mana-lessly at the beginning gives you more leeway to make mistakes, which is what you need while you're learning.

Draconian body armour AC was higher than max-enchanted MDA last time I checked. (Admittedly that's at max level, but it takes me quite a while to get +6 MDA in most games, not quite level 27, but still, AC is the one thing I *don't* find myself lacking as a Draconian)

[Lasty]

um dr apts and int are the same as humans (ok there are a few minor differences that don't matter in apts), except they get really nice bonuses in addition

you are crazy if you don't think that's good

As far as "can't wear fully-enchanted mda", that's true. Instead they get a fully-enchanged MDA for free by existing.

Again, I do think that's good, but I still wouldn't recommend them to a starting player. I also wouldn't recommend a human. The issue isn't that their bonuses relative to humans are bad or that they are overall bad (because obviously those things aren't true), but rather that the bonuses they offer don't do as much to help a newbie as some other races.

Adding more hp, a steady slow progression of AC, and more tools to the toolkit are things that will help an experienced player a lot (because they add defense and flexibility), but they come at the cost of the more obvious power offered by good aptitudes. That latter, obvious power I think does more to help a less experienced player, and it also smooths out the issues created by novice skilling.

Newer players tend to have a harder time adapting to changing circumstances, and draconians are one of the races that comes with a built-in somewhat significant change of circumstance that can be difficult for the less flexible, newer players to deal with.

[Psieye]

It's a question of where they're splatting. Do "new players" splat before they live long enough for aptitudes to even matter? Do they know caster tactics to take advantage of that earlier rise to power with good aptitudes?

Regarding the need for flexibility, absolutely none is required if starting as a DrCj. It's certainly a concern if an FE turns white (though still manageable) or such, but a DrCj has no elemental loyalty.

though I can often stop a monster being able to attack me with movement, I am often unable to gain any ground on it either, so I cannot really run away from it

Now you can run to some stairs and then return via another staircase.

[Amnesiac]

I started with a DEWz and continued him for a looong time, untill I have completed a 15-rune'er. DEWz has a highest INT, which is pleasant, +30%mp which is awesome, aptitudes are good and a versatile book. Blink, conjure flame, mephitic cloud are all lifesaving spells, that are both good for offence and defence and they conclude to a kind of a safe offence. It takes a lot of practice but I have done ocrs in 0.11 with just a starting book and now you'll definitely have something better than that.