Abyss makes me want to give up

[gabberslug]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post, and I apologize if this has already been raised on the forums (I'm sure it has, in some form).

I'm just about ready to give up with Crawl, due to the constant gut punch of getting slaughtered in the Abyss. I have been playing almost exclusively Minotaur Berserker, with the understanding that this is one of the easier class/race combos; I've chosen this straightforward class b/c I want to get to a point where I feel I can reliably progress through most of the game, and then worry about branching out to more interesting or challenging race/classes. However, I am routinely winding up in the Abyss around character level 14-20 and simply not emerging alive.

My strategy is more or less always the same -- race to find an exit and ignore *all* else. No fighting whatsoever, just moving. I quaff whatever protective potions I have immediately upon arriving, put on any resistance oriented rings, quaff speed or agiltiy if I got it, and then just run in one direction, avoiding each and every monster in my path. I've been banished down there like 12 times now and have only successfully escaped twice. Lately, I've been using the Lantern of Shadows to build me a posse of shadows to distract or block the mobs of enemies that invariably find me despite running away from them. But then a Bone Dragon or Starcurs'd Mass swarm catches up, and maybe my speed or resistance has worn out by that point, and I'm a goner. The worst is getting stuck in little corners and being surrounded by monsters, even though I studiously attempt to avoid such situations. Back on the home dungeon plane, I have grown incredibly wary of banish-capable enemies (Sonia, Psyche, elves, ogre mages, chaos or distortion wielders), to the point of paranoia where I'll wander around bedecked in whatever magic resisting equipment I have even if I have other far more powerful items. I have yet to spot a Lugonu altar to convert as some people advise, but would gladly piss off Trog if it meant living another day. And yet I still end up getting plopped down there unexpectedly and not escaping.

Am I being subjected to worse than average luck? Or is there some obvious trick I'm missing? I hope this is a flaw with my gameplay, since I can alter that. Should I be standing my ground, fighting enemies instead of avoiding them? Even as a level 15 MiBe with maybe a good axe or two and a decent (20-25) AC? Because I am getting so fed up with this, I'm worried one more Abyssal YAAD may set me off Crawl for good, which I don't want since otherwise I have been loving the game so much.

[DeathKnyte]

Hey man, welcome to the forums.


Okay, from your post, I can't quite figure if you want a solution that will spoil the game for you - or if you are asking for some general ideas on how to avoid your problem.

I feel for you, as I have been where you're at myself in the past. I asked here too, how to deal with that, and I got some good (non-spoiler) advice at the time. So after a few more games, I got better at it, just by starting to think and spend a little more time studying the circumstances.

So I'm going to start by giving you some pointers in a non-spoilery fashion....

Since you are able to get to character level 15+, you certainly have figured some ways to survive to that point. Congratulations, that is an accomplishment in itself. Therefore, you already know when to run from certain situations, and then come back when you are better equipped, or familiar, with how to handle them. The more you will play (and unfortunately die), the more familiar you will become in knowing and recognizing these situations.

Big Time Tip: Nothing happens in DCSS, until you press a key on your keyboard, or the mouse.

So, for example, if I have been Abyssed 8 times in the past by a certain type of monster, next time I see it in a game, I will stop (not hit any keys), and figure what my best options are to avoid taking that unwanted trip. If my decision is to close with that monster, and giving it like 6 chances to send me off before I have a chance at killing it - then perhaps I should reconsider and try and figure something else. Maybe running away, using a scroll, interposing other monsters between me and it, summoning some friends (like Trog's BIA can do), maybe making myself better able to resist (again like Trog's hand), avoiding that area of the dungeon all together until I have better gear, etc.

If you want to get spoiled, no problem, either I will give direct information as to how to avoid/deal with it, or the next person that see your post.

Good luck - hang in there.

[Turukano]

I have grown incredibly wary of banish-capable enemies (Sonia, Psyche, elves, ogre mages, chaos or distortion wielders)

You are alright to be very careful, abyss is deadly for low-level characters.

to the point of paranoia where I'll wander around bedecked in whatever magic resisting equipment I have

Magic resistance isn't shown directly on the % overview, unlike rF etc. there is "only" a verbal description. Nevertheless it's very important, I'd often prefer armour with MR over armour with other resistances. A ring of MR is useful too. It's not necessary to always wear it, but switch to it immediately if there are banishing foes or run away.

If you worship Trog remember you have Trog's hand which grants regeneration as well as increased MR.

Better luck next time!

[gabberslug]

Hi DeathKnyte, thanks for your very kind reply. I should say before going on that:

a) I do feel a sense of accomplishment at having made it to level 15-20 (or 25, in my single best playthrough--killed by a Hellion in Abyss 1...), and that I've grown ever more cautious and deliberate in my gameplay
b) I feel that DCSS is the best RL I've ever played and really don't want to stop.

Your point about weighing every single action rings true. I think when I arrive in the Abyss, my mood suddenly turns to desperate panic, and after dousing myself with whatever buffs I have, my single action is "make diagonal bee line" rather than "assess the situation in each and every turn." Maybe this is more than anything is what I need to change

I do feel like I'm pretty aware of which enemies pose Abyss problems (except random Dungeon Level 3 distortion wielding kobolds, which I am willing to accept since I'm not invested in a character at that early stage). General gameplay advice is most appreciated, but I'm certainly willing to hear a spoiler or two if it raises my chances--particularly regarding which Abyssal monsters necessitate an instant change of strategy other than run/teleport

Thanks!

[joellercoaster]

Hey, welcome to the forums. Don't give up yet!

1. Getting Abyssed when you're not ready is definitely a disaster (although not as fatal as it first looks). Try not to do that! As mentioned, MR is great and probably the most important, but also stay out of Elf, and just stay far away from the handful of uniques who banish. Erolcha is the only midgame one who does it from range that I can think of, the rest you can simply not engage.

2. Don't panic! Quaffing all your potions on turn one sounds like you are a bit spooked - I noticed after a while that I was playing faster in the Abyss in my eagerness to get the heck out of there. This was not helpful - it's a dangerous place, and the Crawl response to danger is stop. Think. The current Abyss:1 is, IMO, considerably more survivable than previous versions. So conserve your consumables until you need them - not much is going to one-shot you in the turn you spend quaffing Speed.

3. Use the terrain to your advantage. Try to avoid wide open spaces and stay closer to corners you can duck around. Once you have broken LOS from something threatening, if you go around another corner it can lose you entirely. The morphing of the level seems to actively help with this - much more often a wall has appeared to cut off pursuers than to block my escape, though maybe I've been lucky

4. Remember landmarks. If you are just heading in one direction, you can find yourself running in loops. It's possible that the exit will appear in a place you have already been, but odds are it's somewhere you haven't.

Keep your chin up... the Abyss is bad, but it's one of those things that you will adapt to. Because it's random there are no guarantees, but like Unseen Horrors, you will stop dying to it after some practice.

[snow]

just trog's hand when you see a unique like that. trog's hand basically makes you immune to banishment except for distortion brand... but the brand rarely banishes you and usually just blinks you or something. you have understand that if you randomly blink/teleport, you probably just got hit with distortion and have to be REALLY careful.

also the abyss is easy to survive unless you're wearing a plate (which kills your stealth). with no stealth the stratagy changes to kill everything, use up all your piety with BIA, and spam trog's hand/healing pots to heal. keep moving, don't rest in place. running from everything with no stealth in abyss will just get you cornered with an entire map full of enemies on you.

if you play right you'll only ever get banished in like 10% of your games if that, and even then you'll survive most banishments. the key is to avoid getting banished. also all my primarily melee chars walk around with MR items on to avoid banishment. keep in mind that something like a ring of fire resistance is useless 99% of the time, and that extra 1% of the time when you're up against a dragon or something you can just swap it on... something like MR is much more useful for walking around in since you can in theory be banished (or paralized/confused/etc.) the second something comes into los before you can even respond.

EDIT

Oh as the guy before me said: don't do elf.

[Lasty]

There's a lot of good advice already in this thread; the advice that will help you most is the advice on avoiding banishment in the first place. That said, if you do end up in the abyss, don't panic, and definitely don't quaff defensive potions before you need to. The abyss is usually a bit of a slog, and potions time out quickly by comparison.

While in the abyss, you need to learn to separate the monsters into things which need to be killed and things which do not. Things that need to be killed are things which are faster than you or which pose more danger when you run than when you do not. This list includes star-cursed masses, wretched stars, thrashing horrors (until you get them berserk -- then they turn neutral), and sometimes large abominations (they have variable speed). You may also need to kill nexotecs and liches if they come into view very close to you. Just about everything else you can just walk away from without significant difficulty.

Also, know that if you do get mutated by a wretched star, the only cure is to gain XP. Kill a few monsters and you'll be back to normal before you know it.

Also, if in danger, Trog's buddies should be very effective at destroying whatever you're fighting. At XL 15 with Trog, you should be able to kill just about anything you run across in the abyss (if you have to fight it), and Brothers will ensure that you do it fast. Trog's Hand will let you recover any HP you lost in the fight very quickly.

[joellercoaster]

Trog's hand

Oh yeah, that!

If you're within cat swinging distance of a banisher, spam it like a spammy thing.

[some12fat2move]

Banishment isn't smite targeting, so if you can put something between you and the banisher, it can't banish you. Brothers in arms hurts your piety but it will do the trick.

[pickled_heretic]

I have won a few times but I am still pretty new. However, I feel pretty comfortable in the abyss as long as I have rmut, my first win was an OgAK after all. In case you don't know, Abyssal Knights worship Lugonu, the god of the Abyss, and they actually start the game in the Abyss. Later on they actually get self banishment as an escape tool from the dungeon.

Being an AK makes it very easy to wander the abyss, since you can return any time for a small piety cost... No need to find a portal out. Banishing mobs are of no concern to an AK since they can just immediately gate themselves back, and self banishment has to be one of the most powerful escapes in the game.

On top of this, spending that time in the abyss with a very safe character gives you a lot of valuable experience and lets you learn when it is time to run, when it is time to dig in and fight, and when it is time to burn all those scrolls and potions and escape.

To give you an idea of how easy the abyss is once you are familiar with it, I was once banished by Louise on another character in his low 20s who was not a lugonu worshipper, and did the whole abyssal rune run right there, impromptu, mainly because I was not finding exits. Once you have the rune, exits are far more likely to pop up.

I think you ought to try a MiAK to overcome your Abyssal complex in the most direct manner possible.

[khalil]

Here's my advice for the abyss:
First: save your consumables for when you need them. Those potions might wear out before you encounter a single monster.
Second: Teleport scrolls are delayed and only have a chance of activating, so if it looks like you might need to use one in a few turns, do so now.
Third: If you see a monster that can abyss you, activate Trog's hand. If you've got any potions of resistance, use those, and if you've got any nice wands, use those too. Better use them now and waste them than use them in the abyss and die.
Fourth: Don't sweat it if you die in the abyss. It's a bit random as to if you make it. The lowest level I've escaped from the abyss with was five, and the highest I've died in it was twenty.

[rebthor]

One other piece of advice, it does make it a bit harder, but if you want to get out of the Abyss, you might want to actually go to Abyss:2 or even 3. The deeper you are in the Abyss, the harder it gets, but there is also an increased chance of finding an exit.

And I normally wouldn't recommend it, but if you find that you're dying anyhow, I'd consider leaving Trog and joining Lugonu, the god of the Abyss. Trog will be mad and send berserking Ogres, Troll, Giants (basically everything you see under BiA) at you, but going Lugonu gives you lots of tools to deal with this, either by abyssing yourself, abyssing the monsters, blinking away and even bringing in a lot of monsters from the Abyss.

[gabberslug]

Thanks everyone, this is really great advice and has encouraged me not to give up! I'm beginning to think one of my biggest mistakes was downing all my potions upon arrival, rather than saving them for when they're really needed. And to keep a level head, not just panic and run like a maniac.

Two more questions--

1) About the specific strategy of unweilding my nice axes in favor of the Lantern of Shadows; is this a wise approach, and has anyone else ever done it and lived to tell the tale?

2) Are there any videos (like Lets Plays) out there of melee classes dealing with The Abyss successfully? I think that might be really helpful.

[Igxfl]

When escaping the abyss, you don't want to fight things. Thus, whether your axe is wielded or whether you're a melee character doesn't really matter. What does matter is how easily monsters can see and chase you. Lantern of Shadows does kill your stealth, but since it spams friendly shadows everywhere it will keep monsters from closing in on you, and allow you to escape much more easily than you could without it.

[jejorda2]

Here's my advice for the abyss:
Third: If you see a monster that can abyss you, activate Trog's hand. If you've got any potions of resistance, use those, and if you've got any nice wands, use those too. Better use them now and waste them than use them in the abyss and die.

I don't think potions of resistance grant magic resistance. Just fire, cold, poison, and electricity. So they don't help you avoid banishment to the abyss.

[Lasty]

1) About the specific strategy of unweilding my nice axes in favor of the Lantern of Shadows; is this a wise approach, and has anyone else ever done it and lived to tell the tale?

I haven't tried this, but this sounds potentially quite effective to me. Your stealth is already terrible, so that aspect doesn't hurt, and you aren't planning to cast anything. The reduced LOS should reduce the amount of time that things like wretched stars spend in LOS while also giving minions which can block nexotec mutations and pursuit. Just remember that switching back to your axe and busting some faces is still an option when it's needed.

[khalil]

Here's my advice for the abyss:
Third: If you see a monster that can abyss you, activate Trog's hand. If you've got any potions of resistance, use those, and if you've got any nice wands, use those too. Better use them now and waste them than use them in the abyss and die.

I don't think potions of resistance grant magic resistance. Just fire, cold, poison, and electricity. So they don't help you avoid banishment to the abyss.

*Checks wiki*
Huh. I just assumed it did because of the name.

[pickled_heretic]

There are surely things that are better to kill than to run from. Tentacle starspawn, star cursed masses both come to mind. Even a high teens Minotaur using axes should be able to carve through a pile of star cursed masses before they take major damage. 'Run from everything' seems like bad advice, kind of like following a specific build and completely ignoring what kind of stuff is on the ground. Obviously someone who is level 5 is not going to be able to fight much, but that is another judgment call.

[bjourne]

Stealth is pretty useful in the abyss. Even if you only go from "extremely unstealthy" to "unstealthy" it greatly increases the chance of enemies not spotting you. And ofcourse it reduces the likelyhood of a unique abyssing you in the first place. :=)

[moocowmoocow]

Does anybody feel like abyss is fun and adds anything meaningful to the game? Hive was removed for being boring and useless; abyss is both those things in addition to lethal if you're banished at low enough level. Even if I purposely go there for the rune I absolutely hate it.

[Siegurt]

I like the Abyss.

Early on, it's kinda just a long way of dying (Which has a remote possibility of escape if you're very lucky) But you should almost never be abyssed that early (barring a crazy early dive into elf, or a random distortion effect)

When you're high enough level to tackle it, I think it's an interesting break from the grind, and in .12 It's never taken me that long to get in and out with a rune.

[joellercoaster]

I have no beef with the current trunk Abyss. I actually think it's pretty cool (although this last week my game is crashing in it, so I am learning to to play TOME. The price of the bleeding edge!)

[Konedar]

I like the actual abyss too, there is no other situation in dcss like being banished "early". It's boring only when you are high lvl and go for the rune and you are unlucky and it takes long (but not so often now with the gates going "down").

Back to the author's topic:
they've alrady given you excellent advices, but nobody asked about your skills. Do you have weapon at min delay? What about defense? You mention ac20-25, if that's your only def isn't that much. Coupled with some dodging or shield it's ok, but only AC20-25 isn't much.

[pickled_heretic]

I was once abyssed by yiuf quite early, but coincidentally I was worshipping lugonu so I thought it was amusing.

I have no issues with abyss, I think the rune is much easier to get than the tomb rune. I also enjoy wandering around for exp and items, but I guess that is considered scumming. The only thing I hate is nexoqecs which force rmut but you can encounter them in many places. And to a lesser extent smoke demons because they napalm your scrolls.

In terms of flavor I think it is cool to imagine my character coming back even stronger and with a vengeance for the one who abyssed them.

[gabberslug]

Hi everyone, thanks for the continually good advice. Since reading, I started a new character (MiBe again) and made it to level 27, right outside the Halls of Zot, without ever being sent Abyss-ways. I chalk it up to extremely liberal usage of Trog's Hand and a lot of caution around magic users and distortion-wielding uniques.

Regarding Tonedar's questions, I usually rack up skill percentage in Axes almost exclusively until it's min delay for battle-axes or executioner's axe if I have them, so that wasn't the problem. I think now I realize it was poor inventory management, panic upon arriving in Abyss, and bad luck regarding getting cornered by hellions, shadow dragons, and starcursed masses.

[dpeg]

Does anybody feel like abyss is fun and adds anything meaningful to the game?

Yes.

Hive was removed for being boring and useless

There are few things more different than Abyss (old or new) or Hive. I really shouldn't do it, but I cannot stop myself from mentioning a few: Abyss actually kills players; Hive never has killed anyone. Abyss has more than one monster type to offer. Abyss has more than one item type to offer. Abyss is something you often have to deal with; Hive was completely optional (and then trivial). Hive was tedious; Abyss is exciting. Playing the Abyss makes you change your tactics. Abyss comes with a god.

[moocowmoocow]

Does anybody feel like abyss is fun and adds anything meaningful to the game?

Yes.

Hive was removed for being boring and useless

There are few things more different than Abyss (old or new) or Hive. I really shouldn't do it, but I cannot stop myself from mentioning a few: Abyss actually kills players; Hive never has killed anyone. Abyss has more than one monster type to offer. Abyss has more than one item type to offer. Abyss is something you often have to deal with; Hive was completely optional (and then trivial). Hive was tedious; Abyss is exciting. Playing the Abyss makes you change your tactics. Abyss comes with a god.

Fair enough, but the main differences still seem like RNG not letting you leave, and flavor. Would Hive have been kept if it had more than one type of monster and killed players? Maybe I'm in a minority but I find Abyss extremely tedious, because it feels like pulling a slot machine lever waiting for either rune or exit out. I think Crawl's strength is having tactical control over fights and a lot of that is using terrain wisely. I feel like when the RNG is messing with terrain around you it removes a lot of that control. Hive being optional was actually a strong point that I wish was true of the abyss. Players who found it tedious at least were never banished there by monsters and traps then prevented from leaving.

[dpeg]

moocowmoocow: I can understand that sentiment, but perhaps you have (for now!) to take on faith the statement that player skill has a drastic impact on Abyss lethality, and also on banishment probability. And that is a good thing.

Compare your situation with those players who seem to get stuck at certain monsters and will have to accept for the time being that other players almost always can deal with them.

[moocowmoocow]

moocowmoocow: I can understand that sentiment, but perhaps you have (for now!) to take on faith the statement that player skill has a drastic impact on Abyss lethality, and also on banishment probability. And that is a good thing.

Compare your situation with those players who seem to get stuck at certain monsters and will have to accept for the time being that other players almost always can deal with them.

I won't dispute that better players will be better at avoiding banishment and death in abyss. Once you're in the abyss though, intentionally or not, I think it's very tedious to spend 10+ minutes pressing direction buttons hoping for a gate, loguno altar, or rune. In comparison to dealing with certain monsters, no monster requires the same time investment (depending on RNG) and reliance on chance, as does merely trying to leave the abyss. Also, there is satisfaction for those players who kill the monster they are stuck on, much less so for being allowed to leave the abyss when a portal finally spawns.

[bobross419]

I actually like Abyss. With the improvements its a lot less tedious and way more fun. Its a nice change of pace from the standard pull everything into hallways or use big nukes with a path to the stairs.

[BMP]

checked new abyss for the first time today (didnt play since .11). playing trunk so maybe its cause of that but it was among the worst crawl expiriences i had so far.

i spent 90 minutes searching it. like 15k turns or more. most of that on abyss:5. didnt find anything, the abyss levels barely change anything, its impossible to rest at all cause evry 5-10 turns something just spawns next to you. i killed enough monsters to like lvl from 23-27 (i lvld from 25 1/2 to 27 before i reached lvl 4), got mutations,stat drain, lost tonsa consumables etc for nothing. i stopped playing out of boredom and beeing annoyed by the constant "oh nothing on your screen? lets spawn some shit!".
while old abyss wasnt exciting it also never was that annoying for me. as said maybe thats because something is wrong with the current trunk version but if its intended like this then i will never do a 15 rune again since i dont wanna spend 2 hours doing the same shit and expending all my stuff for no reward.

[cjo]

checked new abyss for the first time today (didnt play since .11). playing trunk so maybe its cause of that but it was among the worst crawl expiriences i had so far.

i spent 90 minutes searching it. like 15k turns or more. most of that on abyss:5. didnt find anything, the abyss levels barely change anything, its impossible to rest at all cause evry 5-10 turns something just spawns next to you. i killed enough monsters to like lvl from 23-27 (i lvld from 25 1/2 to 27 before i reached lvl 4), got mutations,stat drain, lost tonsa consumables etc for nothing. i stopped playing out of boredom and beeing annoyed by the constant "oh nothing on your screen? lets spawn some shit!".
while old abyss wasnt exciting it also never was that annoying for me. as said maybe thats because something is wrong with the current trunk version but if its intended like this then i will never do a 15 rune again since i dont wanna spend 2 hours doing the same shit and expending all my stuff for no reward.

You don't have to go to abyss 5. Runes will spawn on Abyss 3 and lower.

I like the new abyss. The only thing I don't like is when I think I have found a rune vault, but I get pulled into a different area before I get a chance to find out. (I'm not saying it necessarily needs to change, I just find it frustrating.)

[Sandman25]

Abyss is good because it is bad It teaches to respect monsters with banishment. I even don't remember when I was banished despite having a game with complete lack of MR items, I was paralysed multiple times for 7 turns but still avoided banishment, I hate Abyss too much

[Siegurt]

checked new abyss for the first time today (didnt play since .11). playing trunk so maybe its cause of that but it was among the worst crawl expiriences i had so far.

i spent 90 minutes searching it. like 15k turns or more. most of that on abyss:5. didnt find anything, the abyss levels barely change anything, its impossible to rest at all cause evry 5-10 turns something just spawns next to you. i killed enough monsters to like lvl from 23-27 (i lvld from 25 1/2 to 27 before i reached lvl 4), got mutations,stat drain, lost tonsa consumables etc for nothing. i stopped playing out of boredom and beeing annoyed by the constant "oh nothing on your screen? lets spawn some shit!".
while old abyss wasnt exciting it also never was that annoying for me. as said maybe thats because something is wrong with the current trunk version but if its intended like this then i will never do a 15 rune again since i dont wanna spend 2 hours doing the same shit and expending all my stuff for no reward.

You don't have to go to abyss 5. Runes will spawn on Abyss 3 and lower.

I like the new abyss. The only thing I don't like is when I think I have found a rune vault, but I get pulled into a different area before I get a chance to find out. (I'm not saying it necessarily needs to change, I just find it frustrating.)

I have spent >90 minutes looking for the rune in the old abyss, and haven't ever spent more than an hour looking in the new one (Typically it's 20-30 minutes) That's purely anecdotal, but your experience seems atypical to me (Perhaps bad luck?)

Mostly I find the new abyss very similar to the old one, with some new (IMHO more interesting) monster sets, and an occasional down staircase which is nice because I have at least *some* escape I can depend on. I seem to remember the old abyss being just as difficult to rest in as the current one. (Although I guess I would occasionally get walled into a 1 square room which I could rest in for a bit, I haven't seen that happen in the new abyss)

[Sandman25]

(Although I guess I would occasionally get walled into a 1 square room which I could rest in for a bit, I haven't seen that happen in the new abyss)

Yes, it happens in new abyss too, but not too often.