How to play AE?

[Utis]

As mentioned in the thread "I think I learned an important lesson today", I'm experimenting with TeAE currently.

I get Shock now, and I think I understand how to get to Lair with it. But I still don't get Static Discharge. By early Lair, way too many enemies are too strong for Shock (and the Lair terrain is unfavourable for it). But even if I concentrate in skill progression on powering Static Discharge up (and this is with a Tengu!), its damage to cost (MP, hunger, self damage) ratio is AFAICS not good enough to rely on it as a main damage spell. And Lightening Bolt is overkill except against big threats like hydrae and hill giants. In short, while I can kill with Static Discharge, I have to rest way too much for HP and MP regeneration and I'm burning through food like mad.

So, my problem is efficiency. But maybe I'm using Static Discharge wrong? By habit, I'm luring enemies and take them on mostly one on one. Is it more cost efficient against multiple adjacent enemies? I admit, it's been a life-saver against killer bees.

Or is my expectation wrong? With FE, Sticky Flame can get me through most of Lair. With IE, the same is true for the combination of Freeze and Throw Icicle (or Ice Beast). My expectation is that by Lair I'm mostly off the ground and that for AE the goto-damage spell is supposed to be Static Discharge, with the expection of popcorn and major threads like hydrae.

But maybe with AE I'm supposed to have found another means of dishing out damage by Lair? (Like I, think, with wizards. But I have little experience with wizards.)

[crate]

your main damage is shock and lightning bolt

static discharge is definitely good but you don't want to use it against everything

AE is annoying, no way to change that

[Utis]

Oh my, Lair isn't going to be easy.

[Lasty]

I haven't used static discharge since .12 or so, when it didn't hit flying creatures. Back then, as an AE I used it against most things that were big enough that Shock didn't feel worth it but small enough that I could take a couple hits from them, and I would save lightning bolt for the latter monsters, since waking up the whole level isn't much fun. My experience was that while you take some damage with Static Discharge, most enemies would go down in 1-2 casts, and it was often the most effective way to wipe out groups, especially on wide-open levels. Of course, I was playing draconians, so I had a bit more HP to work with. Keep in mind that the more enemies that are near when you cast it, the less likely it is to arc back and hit you.

[Utis]

Hmmm, doesn't that mean AE were nerfed with the change of how Static Discharge affects flying creatures? Is that intentional? I mean, AE do have flight. And the bad cost efficiency of SD is likely in part because of the need to heal back HP.

[BlackSheep]

Is it a nerf that the spell now affects flying targets? It never did much damage to the player to begin with.

[Lasty]

I believe it still did self-damage against flying players even when it didn't target other flying creatures. Even if I'm mistaken about that, being able to use it to nuke bees, wraiths, ghosts, hippogriffs, drakes, and whatnot is worth it. There's a fair number of flying creatures in the range that are just a bit too big for shock but too small for lightning bolt.

[Kate]

I believe it still did self-damage against flying players even when it didn't target other flying creatures.

It did, yes (the self-damage was halved when flying but half of "not very much" is still not very much).

[moocowmoocow]

You should know how to use bolt bouncing:

http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php? ... 20bouncing

Also preemptively cast swiftness before fighting something that is threatening.

[Utis]

Is it a nerf that the spell now affects flying targets? It never did much damage to the player to begin with.

I dunno. crate says AE's main damage spell after Shock is LB. Lasty says, in 0.12 he used SD as main damage spell. -- My (perceived) problem is not effectiveness, but efficiency of SD. The nutrition spent on healing HP factors in that equation; and half as much HP loss from self-damage might be just the breaking point.

[BlackSheep]

Yeah, the nutrition needed to heal up from the self-damage from static discharge is really not a factor. Half of that nutrition, even less of a factor. The main difficulties with using SD are that you need to be in melee range and it is unreliable.

[Siegurt]

When using SD, I've found it's about perfect for 2-3 enemies at a time. Also I find that it's *REALLY* unreliable when you can first cast it, and it's not until you get it's power up a little that it becomes a real staple.

I find that in general AE attack spells (other than shock) are a little unwieldy to use when you first can cast them. SD doesn't hit enough times, Lightning bolt misses too frequently for how expensive it is when you get it. On the other hand shock is awesome at level 1 and works longer than most other level 1 elemental attack spells, and SD works effectively longer than most level 3 spells.

I find that AE is much more about positioning, using swiftness to put yourself where you want to before you attack things.

[Lasty]

Siegurt is right -- you definitely want to get your spellpower up on all the Air attack spells ASAP, because they improve significantly with power. Static Discharge damage gets considerably better, and Lightning Bolt / Shock both can use the added accuracy as well as damage.

He's also right that SD is best when you've got a few enemies nearby. SD starts one "beam" for each adjacent enemy, and then each "beam" arcs to additional adjacent targets. The more enemies directly adjacent, the more beams, and thus the more damage per cast, but also the more likely the beams are to arc onto enemy targets instead of you. Having additional enemies adjacent to your targets but not next to you is also quite nice, since it can sap off some of the damage that might bounce back to you onto those adjacent monsters. Positioning is key, but in a different way from the positioning you use for LB and Shock.

[Utis]

He's also right that SD is best when you've got a few enemies nearby. SD starts one "beam" for each adjacent enemy, and then each "beam" arcs to additional adjacent targets. The more enemies directly adjacent, the more beams, and thus the more damage per cast, but also the more likely the beams are to arc onto enemy targets instead of you. Having additional enemies adjacent to your targets but not next to you is also quite nice, since it can sap off some of the damage that might bounce back to you onto those adjacent monsters. Positioning is key, but in a different way from the positioning you use for LB and Shock.

Okay, I'll try that.

Otherwise, I'll grab a weapon on D2 and play AEs as melee builds.

[pickled_heretic]

Why not grab a bow or something with some range and kite stuff with swiftness? Polearms would work well too.

[Volteccer_Jack]

As usual, it depends somewhat on your character. TeAE is fragile and wants to avoid melee, and will additionally get Lightning Bolt online much earlier than other races, so will not use Static Discharge as much. TeAE can (and probably will) use LB as its main attack throughout most/all of Lair. Something like a DrAE will use Static Discharge much more often.

Oh my, Lair isn't going to be easy.

Lightning Bolt is very strong. The noise is like your awesomeness tax for using such a radical spell.

[Baldu]

One of the things i like with AE is to get a couple points in air and then go for a standard melee/ranged build. It's quite possible to have swiftness castable in plate before lair. The melee/ranged damage is gonna be lower until mid-end of lair but shock+swiftness can make up for it. Swiftness is really really good.

Or you can go with just a few points in air and the rest in conjurations, and pick up whatever spell from books you find on the way: stone arrow/mystic blast/... .

Or you can focus on your AE background. Lightning bolt is super powerful but you got to always pull enemies way back with it because it's super loud, so the standard safe way to play AE is pull enemies from the unexplored areas with shock, killed in explored area with lightning. Also a little thing about static discharge is it hits invisible guys, so it can be useful in some edge cases.

[Utis]

As usual, it depends somewhat on your character. TeAE is fragile and wants to avoid melee, and will additionally get Lightning Bolt online much earlier than other races, so will not use Static Discharge as much. TeAE can (and probably will) use LB as its main attack throughout most/all of Lair. Something like a DrAE will use Static Discharge much more often.

That makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you!

This discussion is helping me a lot in developing a mental model with which I can work.

Currently, always luring enemies through half the dungeon floor to a secure area before I make them eat Lightning Bolt, is becoming a chore. But maybe I'm overdoing it. I'm trying to find exact information on noise: Is the wiki page accurate? http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Noise Is there any rule of thumb on how large the "cleared area" should be for Lightening Bolt? Like "If you have two screens wide of clear space around you in a typical dungeon, you're fine".

[Siegurt]

For Lightning bolt, a circle of radius 18 (13 at the diagonals) from the target (in the most of the dungeon) is as far as the noise will travel, so slightly greater than twice your LOS circle if you'd like an estimate.

A 'Screen full' isn't a good measurement, as you can change the size of both the view port and your screen as a whole in your options.

Walls and other obstacles will reduce that further.

[mikee]

Otherwise, I'll grab a weapon on D2 and play AEs as melee builds.

Apparently this is an OK way to play ae.
http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.9/mikee/morgue-mikee-20110827-111243.txt
11407 | D:8 | Reached skill level 8 in Short Blades
69339 | Elf:5 | Reached skill level 10 in Air Magic

http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.8/mikee/morgue-mikee-20110520-054730.txt
21722 | Lair:1 | Reached skill level 5 in Short Blades
21733 | Lair:1 | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
22830 | Lair:2 | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting
23915 | Lair:3 | Reached skill level 10 in Air Magic

Because like... using weapons is a good thing to do.

[Igxfl]

ac
1. Armour Class; the last line of defence against damage. The vast majority of sources of damage are subject to reduction by a random number between 0 and your AC; this is applied after resistances.
2. Torment, smite, and hellfire, and a handful of other abilities/effects ignore AC. The only player-castable damage spells that ignore AC are freeze, refrigeration, sticky flame, static discharge, pain, vampiric draining, and agony. Note that all of these spells also ignore EV.

Static Discharge is much more powerful than it's given credit for. Like Freeze, it kills anything you can survive standing next to, defenses be damned. (Make double sure you can survive standing next to it, of course.)

[BlackSheep]

Unlike freeze, static discharge does not automatically hit. Its damage output also has a wide variance.

[Mankeli]

Unlike freeze, static discharge does not automatically hit

Doesn't it always hit at leat one monster??

[BlackSheep]

Hm, the knowledge bots say it does. Maybe I'm thinking of chain lightning grounding out without hitting anything at all.

[Lasty]

From experience, I would say that Static Discharge does always hit. The damage is very random, though, so sometimes even though it hits it won't deal damage. Still, the average damage is quite good. (Does it ignore AC?)

[rebthor]

In my limited experience with SD, I agree with BlackSheep that it has wide variance and the fact that it can damage you can turn an OK situation into a dangerous one.

[Utis]

Well, for what it's worth, when I splatted a dozen TeAE before starting this thread, I also started a DrAE, just to have something for comparision. I got him through most of Lair rather easily, without quite understanding how. (I quitted him, then, because I'm weird and was at that point more interested in exploring build strategy than actually winning.) With that DrAE I did use Static Discharge a lot, though, so what Volteccer_Jack wrote makes perfectly sense to me.

Thanks to the input and thought stimulation in this thread, I got my first TeAE succesfully through Lair now, based on Shock and Lightning Bolt. I start to think that I've been a little bit too skittish with using LB. It does a lot of damage and if I have explored the level methodically and if I'm not casting it exactly right next to the dark, I believe I don't have to be too afraid of waking up enemies a little bit away, because it does do a lot of damage and there's always swiftness.

In moderation, I rather like the positional playstile of AE, so I'd rather not play them as melee chars from D:2 on, if I can avoid it. Though, if I have to set up bizaps for each and every foe, it becomes somewhat of a chore. Maybe there's a sweet spot somewhere for training a weapon before Lair, so I can effectively melee most and zap some. I'll try that, if my current TeAE dies.

[rebthor]

If you really want to play Te, I'd personally go TeCj over TeAE because AE is fiddly and Te are fragile.

[Utis]

If you really want to play Te, I'd personally go TeCj over TeAE because AE is fiddly and Te are fragile.

Thanks, but what I really wanted to try is TeAE.

[bjourne]

I've been splatting a few dozen TeAE's now. Some getting through the Lair and some even getting to the Vault. In my opinion, they are incredibly fragile the whole way. In the early game you only have shock which misses a lot and doesnt do enough damage. It has a long range and can hit multiple targets which is nice but doesn't make up for it missing to much.

So you need to get Lightning Bolt asap, because as a Tengu mage (it applies to other races too ofcourse), using Static Discharge at melee range is very risky. But LB costs a lot of hunger, so unless you find an amulet of the gourmand or a ring of sustenance, you need to be careful about not running out of rations. Dodgy lair enemies like green rats, that other mage types could kill with magic darts, are to hard to hit with shock so you have to waste hunger costing bolts on them. My DgAE almost starved to death because of that.

The Orcish Mines are easy though because shock works well against unarmoured orcs and it can hit multiple targets. But the spiders in the Spider Nest are tough. Even if they go down to one LB hit they are really good at not getting hit. Same thing with the merfolk in the Shoals, plus you dont want to cast LB in the water. I suppose they should work well in the Snake Pit because its mostly long hallways.

IMHO, AE are the weakest of the elementalists. FE:s have flame tounge which deals lots of damage and seem to hit much more often than shock. Then conjure flame to help them flee or make "corridors of fire" to incinerate undeads and goliath beetles. Sticky Flame is awesome and Fireball is great against groups of yaks in the Lair. IE:s have Summon Ice Beast and Throw Icicle's which are level 4 spells making them significantly cheaper to cast than LB. But AE:s have basically nothing in their starting book that can deal damage except for LB.

[Cheibrodos]

It sounds to me like you weren't double zapping, discharging, and swiftness kiting enough. AE is less straightforward than IE and definitely FE, but swiftness alone is enough to make it a great background.

[Utis]

I've been splatting a few dozen TeAE's now. Some getting through the Lair and some even getting to the Vault. In my opinion, they are incredibly fragile the whole way. In the early game you only have shock which misses a lot and doesnt do enough damage. It has a long range and can hit multiple targets which is nice but doesn't make up for it missing to much.

So you need to get Lightning Bolt asap, because as a Tengu mage (it applies to other races too ofcourse), using Static Discharge at melee range is very risky. But LB costs a lot of hunger, so unless you find an amulet of the gourmand or a ring of sustenance, you need to be careful about not running out of rations. Dodgy lair enemies like green rats, that other mage types could kill with magic darts, are to hard to hit with shock so you have to waste hunger costing bolts on them. My DgAE almost starved to death because of that.

It is my conviction that Tengu are the exception to the general rule that one should train only offence in the beginning. With Te, I'm diverting one third of XP to dodging from turn one on and I'm finding that this helps immensely with their fragility, while they're still doing well with regard to the early game killing curve, because of their aptitudes and, in case of melee builds, their auxiliary attacks. This way, standing next to an enemy for two to three rounds while casting Shock is not that much of an issue. That doesn't go for the really heavy hitters, of course, but these I can kite with Swiftness.

In my experience, Shock stays useful for a long time. Almost like Freeze and certainly much more than Magic Dart. Of course, I have to make sure that I always bizap. If I'm kiting beefier foes, I can kill them with Shock and can postpone relying on Lightning Bolt regularily until I have it at a bearable hunger rate. For kiting, I believe it would be very helpful to use even the more obscure bizap patterns habitually, which I have yet to learn.

I can't comment on spider. I'm never doing Lair branches before Vault, if I can help it, and by then I had more attack options online with the two or so TeAE that I got there.

[Lasty]

Dodgy lair enemies like green rats, that other mage types could kill with magic darts, are to hard to hit with shock so you have to waste hunger costing bolts on them. My DgAE almost starved to death because of that.

Green rats are great targets for Static Discharge: they don't hit very hard, they come in huge swarms, and they don't have much HP.

[Arrhythmia]

plus you dont want to cast LB in the water.

LB doesn't interact with water in any way, and is completely safe to cast in water.

[prozacelf]

Dodgy lair enemies like green rats, that other mage types could kill with magic darts, are to hard to hit with shock so you have to waste hunger costing bolts on them. My DgAE almost starved to death because of that.

Green rats are great targets for Static Discharge: they don't hit very hard, they come in huge swarms, and they don't have much HP.

Also, take advantage of the fact that shock is a bolt and try to line them up so it's got a chance to hit a bunch of them at once. Or just use static.

Edit: You probably shouldn't have a hunger cost for shock by the time you get to Lair either.