Best Cheibriados Race

[wolfstalking]

Chei is currently the only god I haven't ever used. I wanted to try him out for a few games, but have no idea what race to pick. Common sense says go naga since they're already slow and have good unarmed, but if Chei doubles your speed a centaur would be only a bit slower than a normal naga, though this would significantly reduce the damage of Slouch, and they have bad apts in both Tmut and Tloc.

So, what races make Chei suck the least?

[Magipi]

The general consensus is: Troll. Trolls are strong in the early game (when Chei sucks), and Chei is more and more helpful as the game progresses. I have never won one, but reached Zot:5 once (and got killed in the Orb chamber).

[nago]

Na are a pretty bad race for chei - they get the worst move delay per action and aren't so strong early on. Tr are most likely the best race for Chei: they're exceptionally strong early on, when Chei is exceptionally bad and doesn't nothing to help the player, and their major weakness (terrible spellcasting abilities, horrible ev, ...) is nicely offset by Chei's stat bonus. Ce are said to be good with Chei too, but I've never tried that so I can't comment.

Slouch deals a lot damage, you shouldn't worry about the fact Na get higher one because of their terrible speed.

[WalkerBoh]

In addition to Trolls, Draconians are pretty popular. I'm personally fond of Octopodes as Chei worshippers, and I think Gargoyles are very solid as well (if you play trunk).

Whatever you do, do NOT play Felids of Chei, especially if you do it as a predominantly melee fighter. Talk about miserably hard.

[Davion Fuxa]

I wouldn't say Naga are a bad species for Cheibriados. Piety will max out surprisingly quick and Slouch can be used frequently. The only things to remember is that Cheibriados exhaberates the need for utility to make up for your slow movement, combined with your even slower movement. If I had tried to play this on another background besides Wizard then it probably would have been much harder and more frustrating to play for sure.

[crate]

So chei doesn't exactly double your speed. What he does is he adds 1.0 to your base move delay, and then after that mutations are applied. Because crawl is weird, fast movement mutations subtract from your move delay (so sp moves 0.4 aut faster than humans) and slow movement mutations multiply your move delay (so nagas move 40% slower than humans).

Anyway good races are really most of them. I don't personally like na of chei (it is definitely different from other chei races) and felid of chei is definitely bad. Spriggan is probably also not very good. Other races are pretty similar in how much they benefit from chei (obviously the +15 stats mean a bit more if you have worse stats to begin with, like ghouls; and a bit less if you have really good stats to begin with, like high elves).

[njvack]

If you do want to play Na^Chei, remember to use your poison spit.

[pickled_heretic]

Na is not so bad. Remember to abuse spit until you get drymouth and get some other form of projectiles going like slings. Once you get constriction and slouch up and running the rest of the game is pretty easy. Oh and it is frustratingly difficult to not use a shield with this character.

[mikee]

Common sense says go naga since they're already slow and have good unarmed

I hope that is not common sense because neither of those reasons have anything to do with the decision. Less bad chei characters are ones that can survive better early on, when you are just as weak as any early game character except now you are also slow.

[tasonir]

Nagas of chei were amazing. In .10. Then they decided that nagas can't have constriction early on, and now...good luck. It's still doable, but I wouldn't recommend it as heartily. The slower movement and chei does make slouch a win-any-fight-in-three-turns button, but you can get this on any race if you learn statue form, which I'd recommend with chei.

I think gargoyles are actually a great choice for this because once you get statue form you'll have the higher power slouch without having to deal with not being able to run pre temple. the hardest part of chei is from when you join until you get 4 * piety. During this time I usually train invocations exclusively (well, from 1 * onwards when you can actually start training it) and you'll have enough skill to slouch fairly well once it's ready. Step from time will save you from any bad situations you find yourself in after that.

Merfolk make good transmuters and benefit from +all stats quite well. They're similar to the sludge elf option that's removed in trunk, although you could play them in .12 if you prefer.

Chei transmuters are tough to start because spider form won't last you very long as an escape option. You can still use it if you just want to dodge a lot, but I find a race with a high transmutation aptitude can just rush for blade hands instead. Once you have blade hands castable, chei adds an incredible +10 base damage at high piety. You can have that online around lair entrance, and then train defenses for a while until you're survivable and return to increasing your attack speed (the damage increases at that point are kind of unnecessary).

[Sar]

I'm not sure I would recommend Statue Form with Chei. I'm not sure Tm are best, either - out of all my Chei characters Tm was the most annoying one because I lacked a ranged attack. HEAM of Chei seemed to work well enough (I think Bows benefit from Str in some way, Dex with HE Dodging aptitude means you can have very good EV very early, and Int helps with casting AM spells... though I mostly used Slow in the really early game). You'll want some kind of melee on this, too. I also recently won LOFE of Chei, it was okay too, but I was really lucky to find Bolt of Fire early and acquire a vampiric lajatang in Lair.

I have never went with Chei in postend. Getting twice more Hell effects does sound fun, though.

[tasonir]

Granted you won't have a ranged attack early on, but I'll usually pick one up towards mid game. With +15 int getting a decently powered conjuration is easy, or you can go for ranged combat which is also greatly aided by high stats. Slings with 30 strength are quite powerful.

If you're going to be casting a lot, then statue form isn't that great because of the slow, but I tend to use casting only for edge cases. The only transmutation that supports spellcasting is necromutation.

[crate]

The only transmutation that supports spellcasting is necromutation.

ice and dragon form both have no spellcasting penalties

[crate]

neither does beastly appendage

I try to pretend appendage doesn't exist

[Igxfl]

neither does beastly appendage

I try to pretend appendage doesn't exist

"You hit the hobgoblin with your disturbingly large nose!"

[Klown]

Spriggan of Cheibriados with two rings of sustenance.

CheiTrolls

[Bloax]

omg that funny lmao rofl u so funny loool


Did you know that spriggans actually do quite well with Chei, since your EV can - and absolutely will - be huge?
Though if I'm to take a guess at what's the best race to combine with the god of nohaste, I'd probably shoot towards the new (as in low hp, huge AC) gargoyles.
As long as you make sure to get EV (SH is very good too) you'll eventually just stomp everything. Because first they'd have to breach your SH, then your EV - and then your huge AC. Quite efficient indeed.

[Tiktacy]

I play Cheibriados more than I play just about any other god(even TSO). I consider him easily the best god in the game next to Nemelex. But much like Nemelex, he is very difficult to get used to.

The 2 main issues with Cheibriados are his issue with ranged threats, and more importantly, the fact that he requires much better hindsight than most players are used to. A common misconception(probably caused by the wikipage tips) is that Cheibriados is best used as an unarmed combat god. This may be true in version 0.13, however anyone playing before that will not find themselves getting as far as they would following TSO or Oku(at least I didn't). Cheibriados is a god best used on casters, of any kind. His 15 point boost in intelligence is so significant, that he is almost always a better choice than Sif or Veh (depending on the Race) due to the unbelievable decrease in hunger cost. The ability to cast controlled blink with only a 10 in translocations will make the slow speeds laughable when it comes to being a "downside". In fact, Controlled blink actually makes it EASIER to move around than a normal character(most of which would need significantly more skill investment in order to use).

If you play you know what you are doing, you could be casting Ice/fire storm by vaults:5/8 with negligible hunger and 150+ spellpower.

Here are some tips for those who are new to Cheibriados:

1) Always stay close to the stairs when facing a potential thread.
2) Never forget you have Slouch(train invocations to at LEAST 5 or 6 asap so its castable)
3) Get controlled blink to at least 15% ASAP(its both an offensive, AND a defensive tool)
4) You don't HAVE to start using Cheibriados the moment you find him. Its usually best to start as a normal melee class and god(ex: MfGl of Oku), and switching to him the moment things start getting really tough(like before tackling vaults, but make sure you have repel/deflect missile).
5) Finding Hat of ponderousness is an excuse in and of itself to make the switch to Cheibriados Eventually. Its. That. Good.
6) An early amulet of faith may be a good reason to start off with Cheibriados(your piety will max out in no time, even more so than oku), even as a melee class. Unless you plan to use Heavy armour early on, since you will probably be in need of support magic to deal with ranged enemies like centaurs.


I hope this helps.

EDIT: Oh right, I sorta forgot to mention the best races XD

Here is my top 3:

1)Merfolk
-A merfolk of Cheibriados was my first 15 rune victory and also what I used to finally beat the ziggurat sprint. The moment you get Borgnjors revivication, lich form, and controlled blink, you already won.
2)Trolls
-Keep in mind, I have only seen this combo work well on paper.
3)Nagas
-start as a poison mage or wizard and they will be just as good as trolls.

[Amnesiac]

At first 15 Int is quite a lot, but later you find a lot of enhancers and +Int items. So I'm not so sure it's worth sacrificing your movement speed and haste. Not sure at all... Yes, with a good set of spells and skills you can win with any god and stuff, but I'm not sure I'd recommend it.

[Tiktacy]

At first 15 Int is quite a lot, but later you find a lot of enhancers and +Int items. So I'm not so sure it's worth sacrificing your movement speed and haste. Not sure at all... Yes, with a good set of spells and skills you can win with any god and stuff, but I'm not sure I'd recommend it.

I was actually pretty skeptical at first as well. I actually tried this build(caster+cheibz, that is) simply for experimental purposes, expecting just a throw away run. It is true that later on it becomes less remarkable, but you will find that the intellect boost effects the player as well. In other words, you will eventually be finding yourself playing a lot smarter and dying a lot less. Besides, the moment you have controlled blink is the moment you should never be using any method of escape OTHER than controlled blink(and the occasional teleport).

But I believe that that is aside the point. The point of going the cheibriados route is to go from a 9 intellect dodge-tanking Melee fighter, to spamming summon dragons in lichform. Its a more reliable way to tackle the extended endgame than going the TSO route in my opinion.

[pratamawirya]

Sometimes a new member of the tavern comes up and posts stuff (tips, a thorough guide on some build, etc), and even though he/she's still new (judging from his/her post counts), I can tell almost immediately that he/she's not a n00b at all and might actually be a pro crawl player in disguise. This time, however, doesn't seem to be the case.

The 2 main issues with Cheibriados are his issue with ranged threats

And you didn't mention the awesome Temporal Distortion, at all. Yeah, you must be new.

[Tiktacy]

Sometimes a new member of the tavern comes up and posts stuff (tips, a thorough guide on some build, etc), and even though he/she's still new (judging from his/her post counts), I can tell almost immediately that he/she's not a n00b at all and might actually be a pro crawl player in disguise. This time, however, doesn't seem to be the case.

The 2 main issues with Cheibriados are his issue with ranged threats

And you didn't mention the awesome Temporal Distortion, at all. Yeah, you must be new.

I think thats kind of rude to assume... I am by no means a veteran player, but I have put a LOT of time into this game.

I contemplated mentioning it, but since i was talking about using cheibriados as a CASTER, you would usually be better off staying at range and using spells like Repel/Deflect missile(or a shield of reflection) to help tank the damage(since casters are generally ranged attackers as well). Ranged threats are always dangerous to casters, but cheibriados makes it so you won't be able to rely on getting out of LOS until you have controlled blink.

I guess I can understand the misconception though, if you were playing as a melee class, using Temporal Distortion would definitely be a better alternative to being turned into a pin cushion.

If you want me to make a guide that goes into every single little detail about cheibriados, I would be happy to. But I'm not going to go into every little detail on just a random forum post.

[pratamawirya]

I contemplated mentioning it, but since i was talking about using cheibriados as a CASTER, you would usually be better off staying at range and using spells like Repel/Deflect missile(or a shield of reflection) to help tank the damage(since casters are generally ranged attackers as well). Ranged threats are always dangerous to casters, but cheibriados makes it so you won't be able to rely on getting out of LOS until you have controlled blink.

Many ranged attackers (primarily the -taurs family) become considerably weaker at melee range. This is why Temp Distortion is so valuable; it pulls the shooters to you so you can kill them while at the same time making them stop shooting at you. And unless you use spells like fireball (which can also hurt you) and nothing else, fighting them at melee range aren't that dangerous. (And if you're following Chei, then of course you're a tanky spellcaster with good AC and EV, and thus you won't have much problem tanking their melee damage.)

If you're only facing one or two shooters, then protecting yourself with repel or deflect missile might be enough; but it's not a rare thing to get ambushed by a large number of -taurs at once. It's hard to rely solely on repel/deflect missile to protect you in that situation.

And that's not all; you can use Temp Distortion to not only pull your opponents closer to you, but also to make them go away (use it repeatedly). This can come in handy at times; there's no other god that allows you to break your opponents' formation so easily.

Well of course all of these aren't much of a concern to you when you're already able to fling fire storm and controlled-blink yourself around... but until that (and this isn't counting the fact that you need to FIND the books that contain those super spells first; without Veh or Sif, it's definitely harder to), a Chei game is a tough game where you need to use all your survival tools.

[Tiktacy]

I contemplated mentioning it, but since i was talking about using cheibriados as a CASTER, you would usually be better off staying at range and using spells like Repel/Deflect missile(or a shield of reflection) to help tank the damage(since casters are generally ranged attackers as well). Ranged threats are always dangerous to casters, but cheibriados makes it so you won't be able to rely on getting out of LOS until you have controlled blink.

Many ranged attackers (primarily the -taurs family) become considerably weaker at melee range. This is why Temp Distortion is so valuable; it pulls the shooters to you so you can kill them while at the same time making them stop shooting at you. And unless you use spells like fireball (which can also hurt you) and nothing else, fighting them at melee range aren't that dangerous. (And if you're following Chei, then of course you're a tanky spellcaster with good AC and EV, and thus you won't have much problem tanking their melee damage.)

If you're only facing one or two shooters, then protecting yourself with repel or deflect missile might be enough; but it's not a rare thing to get ambushed by a large number of -taurs at once. It's hard to rely solely on repel/deflect missile to protect you in that situation.

And that's not all; you can use Temp Distortion to not only pull your opponents closer to you, but also to make them go away (use it repeatedly). This can come in handy at times; there's no other god that allows you to break your opponents' formation so easily.

Well of course all of these aren't much of a concern to you when you're already able to fling fire storm and controlled-blink yourself around... but until that (and this isn't counting the fact that you need to FIND the books that contain those super spells first; without Veh or Sif, it's definitely harder to), a Chei game is a tough game where you need to use all your survival tools.

I really can't argue with any of that logic, but I just don't find myself using it very often as a caster since it costs 3-5 piety(I'm a bit of a piety pack-rat) and I never really NEED to. Perhaps its good practice, but I just never saw the point in wasting piety that COULD be put towards a well timed slouch.

I think this just comes down to a difference in playstyle, I'm a bit more conservative when it comes to my piety.

[Arrhythmia]

A couple other uses of temporal distortion, since it was mentioned:

Breaking apart slime creatures
Breaking free of constriction
Forcing shapeshifters to change to something less dangerous

[Tiktacy]

A couple other uses of temporal distortion, since it was mentioned:

Breaking apart slime creatures
Breaking free of constriction
Forcing shapeshifters to change to something less dangerous

I actually didn't know about any of those things, ill have to take note of that, thank you.

[Bloax]

You can also use it as a "escape Orb of Destruction free" card, and it works for clouds too.

[pratamawirya]

and it works for clouds too.

dang, seriously?? gotta test it ASAP

EDIT: OMG it works, never thought about that before, yeah seriously the way Temp Distortion works is by making the "time" flow, so everything that has any duration (clouds, OOD, etc) is likely gone after using it

seriously, Temp Distortion frikkin rocks

[XuaXua]

So, what races make Chei suck the least?

I suspect the answer is a race that worships any other deity.

[Amnesiac]

Chei gives nice abilities and allows you to wear heavy armour or/and have high EV that's good, but haste let's you act x1.5 faster = deal x1.5 damage per turn. I think it's kind of a fair trade, maybe, but I like to kill things with haste. If you hit the max spell power, all the more, you just loose your chance to deal the highest damage for a spell per turn.

[Bloax]

Haste hasn't been +50% speed for a long time now, which to say is that it's been changed to 33% a while ago.

Also, in 0.13 you gain 38.4% more weapon base damage due to the doubled stat effects on damage. Not to mention that the +15 int is already a 1.5x spellpower bonus that also improves your cast rates and spell hunger.
And you get to wear heavier armor much easier, and you dodge much better. And your attacks do more damage! And your spells do more damage! And you get some of the best abilities in the game!

But still man, haste. Haste is key, who cares about all that when you have haste.

[Sandman25]

-start as a poison mage or wizard and they will be just as good as trolls.

My first Na was NaVM of Chei (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7468&p=102557#p102557) and it won with 15 runes clearing 3 zigs (one was cleared without casting a single spell, another with Ice Storm and third with Tornado and Ice Storm) without any lucky finds before XL 12. Yet I am constantly told by many top players that Chei is bad for Na and is doubly bad for VM. I believe they are right and I am just a potentially genial player So don't argue with them

[Galefury]

Haste hasn't been +50% speed for a long time now, which to say is that it's been changed to 33% a while ago.

Uhhh, what?

Edit: just checked, seems like BS.

[Bloax]

Is taking an action that takes 1.0 turns turning into 0.7/0.6 a 50% increase in speed?

[Sandman25]

Is taking an action that takes 1.0 turns turning into 0.7/0.6 a 50% increase in speed?

Yes. During 2 turns you will do 3 actions instead of 2.

[Bloax]

Guess that's what happens when you use a general term like "speed". Since it increases your 'speed' by 33%, but that increase in speed results in a 50% increase of (actions/3 turns).

And I'm thinking that a decrease in general duration of your actions (1.0 turns -> 0.66) is an increase in 'speed', which is why I said 33%. But apparently my definition is wrong because whatever.

[Sandman25]

Since it increases your 'speed' by 33%

I don't get it. 1.0/0.66=1.5 so it is a 50% increase.
1-0.66...=0.33... But it is not 33% increase.
For example, if there was some spell which would have 0.50 aut per action, would you say that it is 50% increase? (1.0-0.5=0.5). No, that would be 100% increase (1.0/0.5=2, that's 2 attacks per 1.0 aut).

[Bloax]

So it turns out it hasn't even been nerfed to 33% like I thought it was, interesting.

[njvack]

So, what races make Chei suck the least?

I suspect the answer is a race that worships any other deity.

I don't know that I'd agree that Chei is one of the strongest gods, but she's definitely no longer terrible. The increased effects of stats on EVP reduction and combat add to that since I last played a chei character.

Don't forget Bend Time -- it's cheap and can slow very powerful monsters with some Invo investment. And since it slows their action speed while it's only your movement speed that's slowed, it's similar to "melee-range haste." Another reason to close to melee range with dudes.

[Bloax]

Don't forget Bend Time -- it's cheap and can slow very powerful monsters with some Invo investment. And since it slows their action speed while it's only your movement speed that's slowed, it's similar to "melee-range haste." Another reason to close to melee range with dudes.

If you guys wnat examples to this, then you can actually very easily slow the unique Hell/Pan lords with it. (And keep in mind, this is doubling your speed against them. Since slow is still -50% speed.)
Antaeus is the one with the most HD of them all, and he only ranks at 22 HD. And it's not like bend time won't touch Orbs of Fire either. (In fact it probably is quite reliable on them with about 15 invocations, haven't Science'd it though.)

[Galefury]

Slow is not -50% speed. It makes your actions take 50% longer, which means you get two when you usually got 3. It's exactly the opposite effect of haste, so when you get both they cancel out.

[Bloax]

tl;dr i'm a cockhead when it comes to speed

[Siegurt]

A 33% reduction in time taken results in a 50% increase in speed, it's often the case the two are confused.

One is talking about the amount of reduction from the original speed, the other is talking about how the *result* of that reduction *compares* to the original.

If something costs $10 and is discounted by 75% it costs $2.50, $2.50 is 1/4 of $10, which means you can buy 400% more of that thing.

[Tiktacy]

I just ran a gargoryle monk of Cheibriados all the way through The vaults and got hit for half my HP from a single rock hurled by a cyclops on D:19(ended up with 0 HP, damn you RNG..). The way I was going, I would have won if not for that unlucky shot. This was all on my first try, I didn't find anything useful early game aside from a shield on D:2(which is pretty common).

Gargoyles are better at early game than trolls, by a LOT. Thats the only thing I really learned from that single game...

[Sandman25]

If something costs $10 and is discounted by 75% it costs $2.50, $2.50 is 1/4 of $10, which means you can buy 400% more of that thing.

300% more. 400% of that thing.

[Amnesiac]

And that was a lesson of math with guys from the tavern

[eeviac]

OgWr is the best Chei background. 15 strength makes a significant difference when using a GSC. The extra int and dex shore up some of Og's weaknesses. Portal projectile large rocks. Randblink when you need some space and can't walk away. etc etc