Unseen horror on open level


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 133

Joined: Wednesday, 19th December 2012, 15:59

Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 16:19

Unseen horror on open level

So I just died. To an unseen horror. It was horrible. It was a completely open level, so no luring into corridors. I couldn't get it up the stairs. The up stairs were all pretty far from the down stairs. If I tried to go to a down stair, from anywhere, this guy would start hitting me. So I tried to retreat. DEWz btw. Blink was less than useless, it would only get me further away from stairs. How do I deal with an Unseen Horror in this situation?

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 176

Joined: Wednesday, 10th April 2013, 10:49

Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 16:25

Re: Unseen horror on open level

UHs show up as disturbances in clouds, so a scroll of fog would work, as would freezing / poisonous / mephitic /steam clouds etc, provided you had the right spells and resistances.

Could you post your morgue file?
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Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

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Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 16:30

Re: Unseen horror on open level

I tried six hits with a wand of polymorph other (0 evocations) and didn't have any luck against one today in 0.13.
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Slime Squisher

Posts: 419

Joined: Wednesday, 21st September 2011, 09:45

Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 16:35

Re: Unseen horror on open level

Knowledge Bots says: "Good strategies include mephitic cloud, hallways, and teleporting. Bad strategies include running (unless a hasted spriggan) and fighting in the open. Poison and sticky flame can be useful if you can hit it at least once. Refrigeration works, toxic radiance doesn't. Corona works, too, if you have it. Also try Summon Butterflies." Also, if you can dig a corridor, try it if you dont have spells.
Dont have your morgue file here but without any of these options I would have teleported immediatly if I had been on an open level where stairs are far away.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 446

Joined: Thursday, 16th June 2011, 22:57

Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 18:05

Re: Unseen horror on open level

Scroll of fog works pretty well if you've got one handy. Also luring them into water if there's any around.


Bad strategies include running (unless a hasted spriggan)

I'd completely disagree with this, its typically pretty easy to just walk to the stairs since they're blinking around.
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cjo

Spider Stomper

Posts: 217

Joined: Tuesday, 20th September 2011, 02:03

Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 18:39

Re: Unseen horror on open level

Those things can be brutal if you meet them in the open. As a wizard, I find that sometimes summoning a bunch of imps will give me a clue as to where it is, then I have a better idea where to target the mephitic cloud so I can confuse it. (Of course, fog is better if you have it.)

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1500

Joined: Monday, 3rd January 2011, 17:47

Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 19:03

Re: Unseen horror on open level

battaile wrote:Scroll of fog works pretty well if you've got one handy. Also luring them into water if there's any around.


Bad strategies include running (unless a hasted spriggan)

I'd completely disagree with this, its typically pretty easy to just walk to the stairs since they're blinking around.

They're not blinking. They have bat speed.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 19:06

Re: Unseen horror on open level

battaile wrote:I'd completely disagree with this, its typically pretty easy to just walk to the stairs since they're blinking around.


They don't blink, they just move very fast and use a bat-style movement pattern. That said, you're right about just walking up the stairs usually being just fine. They rarely end their movement next to you, so they rarely follow you.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 446

Joined: Thursday, 16th June 2011, 22:57

Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 19:58

Re: Unseen horror on open level

rebthor wrote:
battaile wrote:Scroll of fog works pretty well if you've got one handy. Also luring them into water if there's any around.


Bad strategies include running (unless a hasted spriggan)

I'd completely disagree with this, its typically pretty easy to just walk to the stairs since they're blinking around.

They're not blinking. They have bat speed.


:roll:

Thank you for making this important semantic distinction, but I'm pretty sure you understand that what I'm saying is they regularly move away from you, so you can just walk up stairs to get away from them, counter to the bot's "DEAD UNLESS HASTED SPRIGGAN" advice.
Last edited by battaile on Wednesday, 5th June 2013, 15:03, edited 3 times in total.
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Swamp Slogger

Posts: 176

Joined: Thursday, 13th September 2012, 22:59

Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 20:02

Re: Unseen horror on open level

I can't remember if it does, but maybe fear scroll works?
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Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 689

Joined: Sunday, 3rd June 2012, 13:10

Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 20:07

Re: Unseen horror on open level

Scroll of fog is pretty bad unless you have sticky flame or corona too. Teleport is much much better.
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Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 446

Joined: Thursday, 16th June 2011, 22:57

Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 20:39

Re: Unseen horror on open level

Scroll of fog works fine if you've got enough firepower to finish them off quickly. If you can't then obviously avoiding them is better. That said, random teleporting on an open level is sometimes the best course of action, but its far from true in all cases.
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Tomb Titivator

Posts: 799

Joined: Saturday, 23rd February 2013, 22:25

Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 22:54

Re: Unseen horror on open level

I'm not even sure why those even exist. The game might as well just check to see if you have see invisibility or are in a corridor. If the answer to both is no, it kills you.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 23:00

Re: Unseen horror on open level

khalil: This is a typical reaction, nothing wrong with it. (The same often happens for banishment, or for player ghosts.) However, if you have managed to survive (not kill!) your first Unseen Horror without being able to see it, then you've achieved something. And finally, there will be a time when unseen unseen horrors are only rarely threatening your life. Such is the greatness of Crawl :)

For this message the author dpeg has received thanks:
joellercoaster

Tomb Titivator

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Joined: Saturday, 23rd February 2013, 22:25

Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 23:09

Re: Unseen horror on open level

dpeg wrote:khalil: This is a typical reaction, nothing wrong with it. (The same often happens for banishment, or for player ghosts.) However, if you have managed to survive (not kill!) your first Unseen Horror without being able to see it, then you've achieved something. And finally, there will be a time when unseen unseen horrors are only rarely threatening your life. Such is the greatness of Crawl :)

I have survived unseen horrors, and even killed one. (Swamped the area with undead and summons, then attacked the space they didn't move into.) Didn't make it fun. I actually like banishment. Trapped in a endless waste, forced to chose between abandoning your god for lunogu or heading onward into the unknown. With banishment, I feel like I have a chance. All you need to do is run, and I'm good at that. Unseen horrors? Even if I escape, there's no sense of achievement. It's just "great, I ran from something that could have been killed in five turns if I had better luck with the rng". It's like those monsters back in AD&D who could only be killed with a single spell. If you don't have that spell? Sucks to be you. Just replace spell with ring of see invisibility.
Last edited by khalil on Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 23:13, edited 1 time in total.

Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 23:12

Re: Unseen horror on open level

Unseen horrors are interesting monsters because they ask players to approach them in a completely different manner to other monsters. This thread gives examples. It might be annoying if they came up all the time, but that's not the case.

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skraman

Tomb Titivator

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Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 23:47

Re: Unseen horror on open level

dpeg wrote:Unseen horrors are interesting monsters because they ask players to approach them in a completely different manner to other monsters. This thread gives examples. It might be annoying if they came up all the time, but that's not the case.

Nonsense. They're just two monsters packed into one. If you have see Invis, they're bats. If you don't, they're Mennas. Either you kill them quickly, or you panic and reach for the teleport scroll.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 879

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Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 23:58

Re: Unseen horror on open level

I lost a character in an amusing way a few days go to an early unseen horror. I went downstairs and orc wizard and priest said hello. Killed the priest while the orc wizard right away turned invisible. Since there where some other mobs in LOS too, decided to retreat upstairs with that lone, invisible orc wizard. I kept hitting the wizard thinking that I already had beaten him before I realised there were two invisible monsters with the other one being unseen horror the other one being the already dead orc wizard. It had already gotten a few hits in and it was really early d:3 or d:4 IIRC so random unidentified item spamming didnt't help. Completely my fault for not paying attention to the messages, of course, but I thought it was a fun encounter.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 133

Joined: Wednesday, 19th December 2012, 15:59

Post Wednesday, 5th June 2013, 05:39

Re: Unseen horror on open level

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.12.0 (tiles) character file.

17543 Ha Jime the Eclecticist (level 12, -1/63 HPs)
             Began as a Deep Elf Wizard on June 3, 2013.
             Was a High Priest of Vehumet.
             Slain by an unseen horror (6 damage)
             ... on Level 10 of the Dungeon on June 4, 2013.
             The game lasted 01:31:11 (15389 turns).

Ha Jime the Eclecticist (Deep Elf Wizard)          Turns: 15389, Time: 01:31:11

HP  -1/63        AC 15     Str  8      XL: 12   Next: 10%
MP  35/36        EV 16     Int 28      God: Vehumet [*****.]
Gold 836         SH  0     Dex 13      Spells:  9 memorised, 20 levels left

Res.Fire  : + . .   See Invis. : .   e - +2 quarterstaff (protect)
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   t - +2 robe {rF+}
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .   (no shield)
Res.Poison: .       Res.Corr.  : .   b - +0 elf wizard hat
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   (no cloak)
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   (no gloves)
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   I - +0 pair of boots
Res.Rott. : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .   (no amulet)
Saprovore : . . .   Flight     : .   F - +3 ring of intelligence
                                     n - +5 ring of protection

@: somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, very stealthy
A: no striking features
a: Renounce Religion


You were on level 10 of the Dungeon.
You worshipped Vehumet.
Vehumet was extremely pleased with you.
You were not hungry.

You visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and saw 11 of its levels.
You also visited: Bailey.

You collected 980 gold pieces.
You spent 164 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - the +2,+1 sling "Thet" {flame, Str+3 Dex+2 Int-3}
   (You took it off a kobold on level 5 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It turns projectiles fired from it into bolts of flame.
   
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It affects your intelligence (-3).
   It affects your dexterity (+2).
 e - a +2,+2 quarterstaff of protection (weapon)
 M - a +1 blowgun
 R - a +1,+1 dagger of chaos (quivered)
Missiles
 d - 8 exploding sling bullets
 g - 42 poisoned needles
 H - 12 curare-tipped needles
Armour
 b - a +0 elven wizard hat (worn)
 t - a +2 robe of fire resistance (worn)
 I - a +0 pair of boots (worn)
Magical devices
 m - a wand of random effects (9)
 s - a wand of lightning (4)
 x - a wand of paralysis (13)
 z - a wand of teleportation (2) {unknown}
Comestibles
 o - an apple
 v - 5 meat rations
 E - a pear
 Q - 3 bread rations
 S - 6 beef jerkies
Scrolls
 c - 4 scrolls of magic mapping
 f - 4 scrolls of blinking
 h - 4 scrolls of identify
 p - 2 scrolls of enchant armour {unknown}
 u - 2 scrolls of enchant weapon I
 w - a scroll of immolation {unknown}
 A - a scroll of summoning
 B - a scroll of recharging {unknown}
 D - a scroll of holy word {unknown}
 G - 3 scrolls of teleportation {unknown}
 J - a scroll of curse jewellery {unknown}
 K - 2 scrolls of noise {unknown}
 N - 2 scrolls of remove curse {unknown}
Jewellery
 n - a +5 ring of protection (left hand)
 F - a +3 ring of intelligence (right hand)
 L - an uncursed ring of fire
Potions
 i - a potion of might
 j - a potion of restore abilities
 k - a potion of agility
 l - 3 potions of mutation
 q - 4 potions of speed
 C - a potion of magic
 O - a potion of gain strength {unknown}
 P - a potion of brilliance {unknown}


   Skills:
 - Level 5.0 Fighting
 - Level 8.3 Dodging
 - Level 8.5 Stealth
 - Level 6.1 Traps
 + Level 15.5 Spellcasting
 - Level 9.1 Conjurations
 - Level 1.1 Summonings
 - Level 1.1 Translocations
 + Level 8.3 Fire Magic


You had 20 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Magic Dart            Conj           #####        1%          1    None
b - Stone Arrow           Conj/Erth      ######.      1%          3    None
c - Mephitic Cloud        Conj/Pois/Air  ######...    1%          3    None
d - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          2%          2    None
e - Call Imp              Summ           #####.....   2%          2    None
f - Conjure Flame         Conj/Fire      #######..    1%          3    None
g - Flame Tongue          Conj/Fire      ######       1%          1    None
h - Bolt of Magma         Conj/Fire/Erth #######...   2%          5    None
r - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ####......   4%          2    None


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (10/27)            Temple (1/1) D:5            Lair (0/8) D:10
   Orc: D:6-11     

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
the Shining One

Shops:
D:5: (?=%  D:6: *  D:7: [

Message History

It hits you but does no damage.
It hits you but does no damage. It closely misses you.
It hits you.
It hits you.
It hits you.
It hits you but does no damage.
It hits you.
It hits you but does no damage.
It hits you!
It hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel better. It barely misses you.
It hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
It hits you but does no damage.
It hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
There is a stone staircase leading up here.
It hits you.
You die...

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.........≈≈≈..................≈≈..........
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...............≈≈≈≈≈≈≈.......≈≈≈≈≈........
..............≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈.......≈≈≈..........
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≈≈≈≈≈......................^..............
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≈≈≈≈≈≈...............≈≈...................
≈≈≈≈≈≈....................................
≈≈≈≈≈≈..^............≈≈...................
≈≈≈≈≈....................................≈
≈≈≈≈≈....................................≈


There were no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  A hydra (D:10)
  A hill giant (D:10)
  2 orc knights (Bailey)
  Joseph (D:7)
  A trapdoor spider zombie (D:9)
  Psyche (D:10)
  2 trolls
  Grinder (D:4)
  4 sharks (D:10)
  3 yaks
  Eustachio (D:4)
  2 hippogriffs
  4 giant goldfish (D:10)
  2 sky beasts
  6 ogres
  A yak zombie (D:6)
  3 centaurs
  11 orc warriors
  2 phantoms (D:7)
  A hippogriff skeleton (D:7)
  Sigmund (D:2)
  A crocodile (D:10)
  A centaur zombie (D:10)
  A yak skeleton (D:5)
  4 giant frogs
  A gnoll sergeant (D:10)
  2 big kobolds
  A giant frog zombie (D:7)
  A giant frog skeleton (D:4)
  6 killer bees (D:9)
  5 jellyfish (D:8)
  A shadow (D:9)
  An ogre zombie (D:6)
  6 crimson imps
  3 electric eels (D:10)
  4 goliath beetles
  10 hounds
  A crocodile skeleton (D:9)
  2 orc priests
  A quasit (D:5)
  6 big fish
  A scorpion (D:6)
  7 worker ants
  4 iguanas
  12 orc wizards
  A worker ant zombie (D:9)
  9 gnolls
  11 adders
  An adder zombie (D:5)
  An iguana skeleton (D:4)
  3 giant mites
  An inept feature mimic (D:3)
  4 worms
  3 giant eyeballs
  8 giant geckos
  2 oozes
  40 orcs
  9 giant cockroaches
  22 goblins
  17 hobgoblins
  7 jackals
  38 kobolds
  5 quokkas
  4 ball pythons
  26 bats
  4 giant newts
  2 giant spores
  A jackal zombie (D:6)
  An orc skeleton (D:5)
  13 rats
366 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  A cyclops (D:8)
  Menkaure (D:7)
  2 mummies (D:8)
  An orc zombie (D:7)
  A rat (D:8)
6 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  5 crimson imps (D:8)
  An iron imp (D:8)
  4 shadow imps
  4 white imps
  A goblin (D:4)
15 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 387 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Ha Jime, the Deep Elf Wizard, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 8/8 MP: 7/7
   195 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 13/13 MP: 8/10
   853 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 13/17 MP: 10/13
   857 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink
   860 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Call Imp
   863 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Repel Missiles
   867 | D:1      | Learned a level 3 spell: Mephitic Cloud
   907 | D:2      | Noticed Sigmund
  1151 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 15/22 MP: 4/16
  1648 | D:2      | Killed Sigmund
  1648 | D:2      | Reached skill level 6 in Spellcasting
  1648 | D:2      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 26/26 MP: 2/20
  1960 | D:3      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
  1994 | D:3      | Reached skill level 7 in Spellcasting
  2516 | D:3      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 29/31 MP: 17/23
  3114 | D:4      | Reached skill level 8 in Spellcasting
  3379 | D:4      | Noticed Eustachio
  3636 | D:4      | Killed Eustachio
  3636 | D:4      | Reached skill level 9 in Spellcasting
  3636 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 35/35 MP: 3/26
  3798 | D:4      | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame
  3958 | D:4      | Noticed Grinder
  3983 | D:4      | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting
  4341 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4424 | D:5      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 36/40 MP: 10/28
  4618 | D:5      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 4 turns
  4634 | D:5      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  4673 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  4878 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Vehumet
  5062 | D:5      | Got a dazzling sling
  5084 | D:5      | Identified the sling "Thet" {flame, Str+3 Dex+2 Int-3} (You took it off a kobold on level 5 of the Dungeon)
  5140 | D:5      | Found Vuoheesoe's Jewellery Shop.
  5144 | D:5      | Bought a cursed ring of hunger for 26 gold pieces
  5151 | D:5      | Found Muilokal's Magic Scroll Boutique.
  5159 | D:5      | Bought a scroll of curse weapon for 28 gold pieces
  5159 | D:5      | Bought a scroll of blinking for 77 gold pieces
  5201 | D:5      | Found Vuug's Weapon Boutique.
  5226 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
  5411 | D:5      | Found Taim's Food Shop.
  5609 | D:4      | Paralysed by Grinder for 5 turns
  5616 | D:4      | Killed Grinder
  5861 | D:6      | Acquired Vehumet's first power
  5861 | D:6      | Offered knowledge of Flame Tongue by Vehumet.
  5864 | D:6      | Learned a level 1 spell: Flame Tongue
  6536 | D:6      | Found Smefrilimn's General Store.
  6594 | D:6      | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
  6607 | D:6      | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 33 gold pieces
  6877 | D:6      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 36/44 MP: 15/30
  7064 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Fire Magic
  7087 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations
  7285 | D:7      | Offered knowledge of Sandblast by Vehumet.
  7419 | D:7      | Found a flagged portal.
  7629 | Bailey   | Entered a bailey
  7636 | Bailey   | Noticed an orc knight
  7648 | Bailey   | Noticed an orc knight
  7932 | Bailey   | Killed an orc knight
  8230 | Bailey   | Killed an orc knight
  8350 | Bailey   | Reached XP level 10. HP: 48/48 MP: 19/31
  8778 | D:7      | Offered knowledge of Stone Arrow by Vehumet.
  8846 | D:7      | Found Blas' Antique Armour Emporium.
  8938 | D:7      | Noticed Joseph
  9008 | D:7      | Noticed Menkaure
  9082 | D:7      | Killed Menkaure
  9082 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Fire Magic
 10031 | D:7      | Killed Joseph
 10172 | D:8      | Noticed a cyclops
 10292 | D:8      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
 10292 | D:8      | Reached XP level 11. HP: 49/57 MP: 25/32
 10478 | D:8      | Reached skill level 11 in Spellcasting
 10599 | D:8      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 3 turns
 10690 | D:8      | Killed a cyclops
 10847 | D:8      | Learned a level 3 spell: Stone Arrow
 10954 | D:8      | Acquired Vehumet's second power
 11335 | D:8      | Reached skill level 12 in Spellcasting
 11477 | D:8      | Offered knowledge of Static Discharge by Vehumet.
 12253 | D:9      | Acquired Vehumet's third power
 12499 | D:9      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
 12590 | D:9      | Offered knowledge of Bolt of Magma by Vehumet.
 12605 | D:9      | Reached skill level 13 in Spellcasting
 12612 | D:9      | Learned a level 5 spell: Bolt of Magma
 12713 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 12726 | D:10     | Noticed a hill giant
 12815 | D:10     | Noticed Psyche
 12886 | D:10     | Killed a hill giant
 13289 | D:10     | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 13471 | D:10     | Killed Psyche
 13471 | D:10     | Reached skill level 14 in Spellcasting
 13915 | D:10     | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 4 turns
 14133 | D:10     | Noticed a four-headed hydra
 14329 | D:10     | Killed a four-headed hydra
 14329 | D:10     | Reached skill level 15 in Spellcasting
 14329 | D:10     | Reached XP level 12. HP: 39/63 MP: 27/36
 15389 | D:10     | Slain by an unseen horror


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Quarterstaff      |       |       |       |     3 ||     3
Throw: Dagger            |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
 Cast: Magic Dart        |    86 |   206 |   295 |   251 ||   838
       Mephitic Cloud    |       |     6 |    29 |    35 ||    70
       Blink             |       |    11 |     9 |    33 ||    53
       Conjure Flame     |       |       |    25 |    29 ||    54
       Flame Tongue      |       |       |    51 |   115 ||   166
       Call Imp          |       |       |     1 |    33 ||    34
       Repel Missiles    |       |       |     1 |     4 ||     5
       Stone Arrow       |       |       |       |   149 ||   149
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |     4 |     6 ||    10
  Use: Scroll            |       |       |    13 |     1 ||    14
       Potion            |       |       |       |     8 ||     8


I consider this a challenge not a problem ;). If I had cloud spells (other than meph) I would've tries blasting around me. I did hit it once with Meph but wasn't really pleased with the result. Not fighting in the open is a great suggestion, but no corridors on this level...well there was a small place up top where there was a mini vault but getting there, with Horror in tow would've been just as fatal I think.

Imps! I can't believe I forgot about imps. I use imps in every other oh crap its a big monster situation, but somehow I forgot.

I can't say I was amused by the situation, but it presents a challenge I think should be winnable.
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Post Wednesday, 5th June 2013, 06:01

Re: Unseen horror on open level

You're obviously not a summoner but summon canine familiar can give you doggies that can sense invisible. I've seen them attacking invisible things, but my guy could see invisible at the time I noticed it so I'm not sure if it's dependent on both you and them being able to see it or not.

For what you had available imps were probably your best bet unless there was water on the level.

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Post Wednesday, 5th June 2013, 13:25

Re: Unseen horror on open level

battaile wrote:Thank you for making this important semantic distinction.


I make the distinction because it's not purely semantic. If someone believes that they blink, they would also believe that they could not be cornered, or that they could move from one side of you in a corridor to the other side. Understanding that they have to move means you can a) corner them, and b) rely on them to stay on one side of you in a corridor, and understanding those things can help you fight them.

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Post Wednesday, 5th June 2013, 13:30

Re: Unseen horror on open level

khalil wrote:If you don't, they're Mennas. Either you kill them quickly, or you panic and reach for the teleport scroll.


They're nowhere near the threat that Mennas is. Here's a list of things most characters can do against them that they cannot do against Mennas:

* Walk to a staircase and use it.
* Mostly ignore the damage they do with modest AC.
* Walk into a corridor and kill them with wand/spell spam.
* Trap them against a dead end and/or other monsters and/or allies.
* Use clouds or water to detect & kill them.
* Use understanding of bat movement to predict their movement and strike them.
* Teleport away at any point during the fight, or use any other scrolls that might help.

The truth is exactly what dpeg said: they are an enemy that offers a unique and interesting threat. Once you learn how to handle that threat, they are no longer terrifying.

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Post Wednesday, 5th June 2013, 13:32

Re: Unseen horror on open level

prozacelf wrote:You're obviously not a summoner but summon canine familiar can give you doggies that can sense invisible.


This is correct. All dogs (except jackals?) have "sense invisible", which allows them to detect and attack invisible monsters near them. As with all other allies, their invisibility detection status does not depend on the player's see invis status.

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Post Wednesday, 5th June 2013, 14:16

Re: Unseen horror on open level

Lasty wrote:
battaile wrote:Thank you for making this important semantic distinction.


I make the distinction because it's not purely semantic. If someone believes that they blink, they would also believe that they could not be cornered, or that they could move from one side of you in a corridor to the other side. Understanding that they have to move means you can a) corner them, and b) rely on them to stay on one side of you in a corridor, and understanding those things can help you fight them.

Thank you for pointing out more stuff that doesn't matter at all in the context of this situation.

VVV
?? All the things he pointed out are relevant.

They aren't at all relevant on an open level.
Last edited by battaile on Monday, 1st July 2013, 19:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Wednesday, 5th June 2013, 14:24

Re: Unseen horror on open level

  Code:
f - 4 scrolls of blinking


Surely you could have blinked away? I'd rather have a little bit of glow than be dead...

and...

  Code:
p - 2 scrolls of enchant armour {unknown}
u - 2 scrolls of enchant weapon I
w - a scroll of immolation {unknown}
A - a scroll of summoning
B - a scroll of recharging {unknown}
D - a scroll of holy word {unknown}
G - 3 scrolls of teleportation {unknown}
J - a scroll of curse jewellery {unknown}
K - 2 scrolls of noise {unknown}
N - 2 scrolls of remove curse {unknown}


Way too many UnID's scrolls...
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Post Wednesday, 5th June 2013, 14:32

Re: Unseen horror on open level

khalil wrote:
dpeg wrote:Unseen horrors are interesting monsters because they ask players to approach them in a completely different manner to other monsters. This thread gives examples. It might be annoying if they came up all the time, but that's not the case.

Nonsense. They're just two monsters packed into one. If you have see Invis, they're bats. If you don't, they're Mennas. Either you kill them quickly, or you panic and reach for the teleport scroll.

Not strictly true. If you are dodging focus and don't have see invis, they're Mennas, but if you've got 30 AC and you run into one, they can barely bother you.

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Post Wednesday, 5th June 2013, 14:38

Re: Unseen horror on open level

battaile wrote:
Lasty wrote:
battaile wrote:Thank you for making this important semantic distinction.


I make the distinction because it's not purely semantic. If someone believes that they blink, they would also believe that they could not be cornered, or that they could move from one side of you in a corridor to the other side. Understanding that they have to move means you can a) corner them, and b) rely on them to stay on one side of you in a corridor, and understanding those things can help you fight them.

Thank you for pointing out more stuff that doesn't matter at all in the context of this situation.

?? All the things he pointed out are relevant. If they truly blinked, they would actually be easier to run away from for the most part. Think of how easy it is to run from a crimson imp or blink frog.
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Post Wednesday, 5th June 2013, 14:58

Re: Unseen horror on open level

  Code:
wiki's "DEAD UNLESS HASTED SPRIGGAN" advice.
That's not taken from wiki. It's taken from Knowledge Bots as I mentioned in my post.
thejasper: you had 4 potions of speed, 7 unidentiefied scroll types (among where there was 3 scrolls of teleportation) and you had unidentified wand of teleportation. In your pack were four scrolls of identify. All this on Dlvl:10. Your death occurred mainly because of you conserved your scrolls.

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Post Wednesday, 5th June 2013, 14:59

Re: Unseen horror on open level

Another thing that should work: I just checked on wizmode, and if you're an axe wielder, then you can use Ctrl+Dir to attack, and even if there is nothing in the square you target, your cleave will still hit six of the other seven squares around you. So in a completely open space, an axe wielder can hit an unseen horror on seven out of every eight turns that it stops next to him/her, just by swinging at random.

Also, I wonder if that scroll of summoning might have helped.

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Post Wednesday, 5th June 2013, 15:03

Re: Unseen horror on open level

Sphara wrote:
  Code:
wiki's "DEAD UNLESS HASTED SPRIGGAN" advice.
That's not taken from wiki. It's taken from Knowledge Bots as I mentioned in my post.
thejasper: you had 4 potions of speed, 7 unidentiefied scroll types (among where there was 3 scrolls of teleportation) and you had unidentified wand of teleportation. In your pack were four scrolls of identify. All this on Dlvl:10. Your death occurred mainly because of you conserved your scrolls.

Sorry for misrepresenting the source of your regurgitated info, I'll edit my post.
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Post Wednesday, 5th June 2013, 15:12

Re: Unseen horror on open level

Thalfon wrote:Another thing that should work: I just checked on wizmode, and if you're an axe wielder, then you can use Ctrl+Dir to attack, and even if there is nothing in the square you target, your cleave will still hit six of the other seven squares around you. So in a completely open space, an axe wielder can hit an unseen horror on seven out of every eight turns that it stops next to him/her, just by swinging at random.


This works less well than you think, because the unseen horror will only be next to you on your turn about 1 in 3 times, so even w/ an axe you have a high chance of wasting actions. If you have about 20 AC, you can probably get away with doing this anyway, since the horrors do relatively low damage.

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Post Wednesday, 5th June 2013, 15:41

Re: Unseen horror on open level

rebthor wrote:Not strictly true. If you are dodging focus and don't have see invis, they're Mennas, but if you've got 30 AC and you run into one, they can barely bother you.

I play casters. They get ripped to shreds. I can't even use stoneskin because I use mummies and those can't use transmutation spells.

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Post Wednesday, 5th June 2013, 16:48

Re: Unseen horror on open level

Conclusion, I died of terminal stupidity. I knew that though :}

Why did I have so many unidentified scrolls? Arrogance not conservation. I hadn't needed them, I was cruising, I was..dead wasn't I. Why didn't I use my blink scrolls...I was ignoring scrolls remember? Also, wizard, so I think of my own blink first. We could go on and on listing my shortcomings as a player...well that was what I asked for didn't I? It seems as soon as I train myself off of one bad habit I pick up another one.

Thanks for all the advice guys (and gals? are there gals here? can't tell by names.)

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Post Monday, 10th June 2013, 10:09

Re: Unseen horror on open level

Basically it is a good idea to identify scrolls when you don't need them provided you have at least 2 scrolls of a kind. Identifying them when you need them (i.e. in the middle of a dangerous fight) can kill you (even without scroll of immolation).

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Post Tuesday, 11th June 2013, 00:02

Re: Unseen horror on open level

I have killed at least a few by walking to a corner and ctrl moving randomly. This only works if you can deal massive damage in one blow and/or can take a few hits though.
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Post Tuesday, 11th June 2013, 13:20

Re: Unseen horror on open level

I think conjure flame would be your way to go together with imps, you have enough MP to surround the horror.

khalil wrote:It's just "great, I ran from something that could have been killed in five turns if I had better luck with the rng"..


If you have a decent chance of loosing a fight by the RNG (decent being >5%), then you should consider using you consumable or avoiding the fight. A good player don't rely of good dice rolls.
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Post Tuesday, 11th June 2013, 13:54

Re: Unseen horror on open level

If you're picking fights with a 5% chance of losing them, you won't last long. You need to win (or avoid) every single fight, all game long.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

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Post Tuesday, 11th June 2013, 14:01

Re: Unseen horror on open level

varsovie wrote:I think conjure flame would be your way to go together with imps, you have enough MP to surround the horror.

khalil wrote:It's just "great, I ran from something that could have been killed in five turns if I had better luck with the rng"..


If you have a decent chance of loosing a fight by the RNG (decent being >5%), then you should consider using you consumable or avoiding the fight. A good player don't rely of good dice rolls.

I don't mean that as in 'if the rng had given me better attack rolls'.
I meant it as in 'if the rng had dropped a ring of see invisibilty on the previous floor,' or 'if I was encountering the horror in a level made of hallways.'

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Post Tuesday, 11th June 2013, 14:17

Re: Unseen horror on open level

varsovie wrote:I think conjure flame would be your way to go together with imps, you have enough MP to surround the horror.


Conjure flame is pretty good against Unseen Horrors: they walk through it with impunity, so if you can place enough of them in the places where the horror is likely to walk, it will die quickly. Imps can help cut down the number of tiles it could stand in. Also, the horrors have relatively low intelligence, so if you can get out of its sight for a moment (teleport, distract w/ imps, etc.) it's pretty easy to just walk away.

khalil wrote:I meant it as in 'if the rng had dropped a ring of see invisibilty on the previous floor,' or 'if I was encountering the horror in a level made of hallways.'


There are a vast number of ways of handling a level w/ an unseen horror, even an open one. Once you start thinking creatively about the options, you'll never die to an unseen horror again. I think I've lost a grand total of 2 out of probably thousands of characters to unseen horrors, one being the first one to run into an unseen horror and the other being soon after. The reason I don't ever die to unseen horrors anymore isn't that I always have see invis -- on the contrary, I often go through the majority of each game w/o see invis, and I kill or evade several unseen horrors in each game anyway. They really just aren't that dangerous.
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Post Tuesday, 11th June 2013, 15:32

Re: Unseen horror on open level

Lasty wrote:I think I've lost a grand total of 2 out of probably thousands of characters to unseen horrors


I have lost 6 out of nearly a thousand - they used to really freak me out :oops:
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Post Tuesday, 11th June 2013, 16:25

Re: Unseen horror on open level

Lasty wrote:Conjure flame is pretty good against Unseen Horrors: they walk through it with impunity, so if you can place enough of them in the places where the horror is likely to walk, it will die quickly. Imps can help cut down the number of tiles it could stand in. Also, the horrors have relatively low intelligence, so if you can get out of its sight for a moment (teleport, distract w/ imps, etc.) it's pretty easy to just walk away.


Awesome! It never even occurred to me to try conjure flame. I don't know why, since I use it against lots of other stuff. This is why I love threads like this.

khalil wrote:I meant it as in 'if the rng had dropped a ring of see invisibilty on the previous floor,' or 'if I was encountering the horror in a level made of hallways.'


I'll be honest, these guys scare me, but I am certain that thinking it's mostly luck based is not the answer. Otherwise the top players would not be able to get streaks and high win percentages.

On another note, khalil, what draws you to mummies? I have tried all the races, admittedly to varying degrees depending on how much fun I find them. None of them have ever been so frustratingly tedious as mummies. In exchange for the nebulous promise of someday getting cheesy end game power (free channeling, torment immunity), you start out good at exactly nothing, with some powerful resources closed off, and oh yeah, fire vulnerability just for kicks. I don't think any other race has as consistently left me both bored and dead.

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Post Tuesday, 11th June 2013, 17:28

Re: Unseen horror on open level

The only time I die to them is when I am spamming around and dont notice the "It hits you" messages

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Post Tuesday, 11th June 2013, 18:21

Re: Unseen horror on open level

cjo wrote:I'll be honest, these guys scare me, but I am certain that thinking it's mostly luck based is not the answer. Otherwise the top players would not be able to get streaks and high win percentages.

The one nice thing I can say about the Horrors is that they aren't very common. Also, most top players aren't stupid enough to play mummies.
cjo wrote:On another note, khalil, what draws you to mummies? I have tried all the races, admittedly to varying degrees depending on how much fun I find them. None of them have ever been so frustratingly tedious as mummies. In exchange for the nebulous promise of someday getting cheesy end game power (free channeling, torment immunity), you start out good at exactly nothing, with some powerful resources closed off, and oh yeah, fire vulnerability just for kicks. I don't think any other race has as consistently left me both bored and dead.

I like the fluff that surrounds them. When given the choice to make a character who doesn't suck, or a character who I find to be neat, I generally go for the second option. My current D&D character is an ogre wizard. Not someone from the ogre mage species, but an ogre with wizard levels trying to deal with massive LA and -4 int.
This is probably the number one reason as to why I suck at crawl, as well as roguelikes in general.

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Post Tuesday, 11th June 2013, 18:37

Re: Unseen horror on open level

khalil wrote:I like the fluff that surrounds them. When given the choice to make a character who doesn't suck, or a character who I find to be neat, I generally go for the second option. My current D&D character is an ogre wizard. Not someone from the ogre mage species, but an ogre with wizard levels trying to deal with massive LA and -4 int.
This is probably the number one reason as to why I suck at crawl, as well as roguelikes in general.


That's cool :) I know I played a lot of draconics because dragons are awesome, plus I loved the random colors. I played a lot of demonspawn because I loved the roulette aspect. And I played a lot of kobolds because nothing amused me more than the image of a little reptile dragging around an overstuffed belly. Every now and then I would revert to MiBe to blow off steam, though.

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Post Tuesday, 11th June 2013, 19:23

Re: Unseen horror on open level

cjo wrote: Every now and then I would revert to MiBe to blow off steam, though.

I'm currently trying to use HO of beorgh to wash my mouth of all the suck.
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Barkeep

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Post Wednesday, 12th June 2013, 01:06

Re: Unseen horror on open level

khalil wrote:I'm currently trying to use HO of beorgh to wash my mouth of all the suck.

The image in my mind is so NSFW.
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Post Wednesday, 12th June 2013, 07:55

Re: Unseen horror on open level

khalil wrote:.. My current D&D character is an ogre wizard. Not someone from the ogre mage species, but an ogre with wizard levels trying to deal with massive LA and -4 int.
This is probably the number one reason as to why I suck at crawl, as well as roguelikes in general.


This is the number one reason why your DM sucks, I would say... Either the game is set up to balance such a poor choice, or the DM just tells you not to do it.

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Post Wednesday, 12th June 2013, 11:03

Re: Unseen horror on open level

daggaz wrote:
khalil wrote:.. My current D&D character is an ogre wizard. Not someone from the ogre mage species, but an ogre with wizard levels trying to deal with massive LA and -4 int.
This is probably the number one reason as to why I suck at crawl, as well as roguelikes in general.


This is the number one reason why your DM sucks, I would say... Either the game is set up to balance such a poor choice, or the DM just tells you not to do it.

3.5 is horribly balanced, especially in regards to monster species. Fortunately, my gm plays fast and loose with the rules. Also, teleport+major creation+necropolitian+that first level spell that gives you a nat20 on your next attack lets you drop tungsten poles from orbit that automatically hit for loads of damage. WIzards are so OP that I can deal with being the most min-min build out there.

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