Advice for MfIE?

[Strat]

I'm not sure why, but after three (long-sought, lucky, etc.) wins with MiBe, DEFE, and SpEn, I've been playing some MfIE, and having the hardest time -- I can't even get to Lair. Other posts I've looked through suggest that MfIE is doable, so I must be doing something wrong -- I've tried just Ice Magic, that and spellcasting, polearms when I find them, just one at a time or several. Any advice for a way to get rolling with this (looking towards Okawaru, but even that I can't really try out due to my poor showings so far). Thanks all.

[diviton]

MfIE is a great class. As stated above, use Freeze. I'd also like to add worship Fedhas. Its a fun combo.

[Strat]

Thanks -- as I tried to point out in the initial post, I certainly don't consider myself even a mediocre player. I'll try to avoid hybridizing (?) too early, then, and just stick to the bread and butter of ice magic (Freeze, in particular).

[nordetsa]

One thing I don't like about freeze is its abysmal range.

Speaking of which, how could other spells for Ice Elementalist be useful? Throw Icicle takes time to learn, and is only 1-target spell. Throw frost is ranged, but it's also 1-target spell as well. Ozocubu's armor and condensation shield is utility spells, and I don't think they help that much in critical situations. Summoning ice beast would be ideal choice for groups of monsters or tough enemies, but some summoning skill is required before using that effectively. I really like spells that you can use to distance your character with the monsters (conjure flame, blink, mephitic cloud), but IE doesn't seem to have that spell.

if IE could survive early game and get access to freezing cloud (which I think doesn't appear that often on spellbooks), the game could get easy, but without conjure flame/ mephitic cloud I don't know how an IE could survive if caught in a sticky situation. One can use scroll/wand, but it isn't guaranteed one comes across those.

[crate]

um every single spell in the IE book is good

[Sandman25]

Reaching weapon + Freeze is a good combo early game. I have just looked at my MfIE:

  Code:

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Spear             |   307 |    96 |    67 ||   470
       Short sword       |    87 |       |       ||    87
 Fire: Sling             |     2 |    18 |    64 ||    84
Throw: Stone             |     8 |       |       ||     8
       Dart              |       |    24 |    41 ||    65
 Cast: Freeze            |    51 |    85 |    58 ||   194
       Throw Frost       |       |     2 |     1 ||     3
       Ozocubu's Armour  |       |     2 |     2 ||     4
       Condensation Shie |       |       |     1 ||     1
Invok: Evolution         |       |       |     1 ||     1

I trained Ice Magic up to 6 (Freeze is reliable at this stage I guess), then Polearms 7, Stabbing 5, Stealth 5 etc.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7163

[nordetsa]

um every single spell in the IE book is good

Well then I guess I don't know how to use it. For example, if I come across an ogre as my DEFE I would try to cast conjure flame and then cast flame tongue few times.

If I happened to meet an ogre while playing IE...well, I don't know what would I do, other than casting throw frost and hoping that would kill it before it approaches my character.

[Sandman25]

DEIE is weak I believe.

[nordetsa]

DEIE is weak I believe.

Even playing as MfIE I come across the same problem.

[rchandra]

If I happened to meet an ogre while playing IE...well, I don't know what would I do, other than casting throw frost and hoping that would kill it before it approaches my character.

throw frost it, if it reaches 2 spaces away reconsider, either use frost again and then freeze it until dead or walk away and try again.

[Sandman25]

DEIE is weak I believe.

Even playing as MfIE I come across the same problem.

I think Freeze allows to kill an Ogre by 2-3 casts. I see my MfIE killed 3 Ogres before XL 9 but I don't remember how it was done

[nordetsa]

Problem is, because of freeze you have to stand right next to a monster as a spellcaster. The short range is what makes IE extremely hard for me along with EE.

Edit: and I'm wondering why sandblast and freeze have such a short range. For sandblast maybe because of damage increase while wielding stone, but for freeze, why?

[Sar]

Because Freeze never misses and ignores AC (and also slows cold-blooded monsters and, according to bots, gives some kind of semi-stun). It's amazing, probably my favorite level 1 spell. As an Mf you can probably afford standing next to most dangerous monsters because you have good HP (and later, good EV) and good AC when you learn Ozu Armour.

[rebthor]

um every single spell in the IE book is good

Well, throw frost is pretty mediocre at best and condensation shield is good but I often don't learn it. But the other spells are all great.

[Lasty]

Freeze is range 1 because it does great damage, never misses, and ignores AC. If it were ranged, it would easily be the best L1 attack spell. Seriously, use Freeze. It's like having a super-accurate, very powerful melee attack that only takes 1 turn to swing. Getting Ice skill to the point where Freeze is max power is a good first priority.

The other spells are also useful, as other have suggested:

* Throw Frost is useful for softening up targets you want to Freeze before they close in (e.g. early ogres).
* Ozo's Armor is a huge boost to AC.
* Throw Icicle does heavy damage at a fairly long range (about 25-50% more than IMB, depending on power, and about the same damage as Fireball up to 100 power), and most of the damage can't be resisted, making it effective against even rC nasties. This spell is a bread-and-butter damage dealer through Vaults or so.
* Summon Ice Beast gives you meat shields that do decent damage if you need them.

Of those spells, only Summon Ice Beast will do something like what you're used to doing with Mephitic Cloud and Conjure Flame, but that's fine. You don't need to buy time as much because your spells do tons of damage, and if you want to go hybrid you can use Ozo's and Ice Beasts to tank damage pretty well.

[crate]

DEIE is very good, throw frost is quite good and definitely worth learning. Throw frost is very nearly as good as throw flame (1 less range) which is a very good spell for FE. Admittedly throw frost seems worse in comparison but that's because the IE book actually has good spells (like freeze) whereas the FE book pretty much just has sticky flame.

You know that IE can move, right? Ogres are no problem unless you are a naga, but then you have this other thing called poison spit which happens to be extremely good against them.

Condensation shield is probably the worst spell in the IE book but I use it quite often because it is good. It is not as good as some similar spells (at least ozo's armour and phase shift) so I often don't use it because I don't need it, but it's not bad.

[cjo]

One thing I don't like about freeze is its abysmal range.

Speaking of which, how could other spells for Ice Elementalist be useful? Throw Icicle takes time to learn, and is only 1-target spell. Throw frost is ranged, but it's also 1-target spell as well. Ozocubu's armor and condensation shield is utility spells, and I don't think they help that much in critical situations. Summoning ice beast would be ideal choice for groups of monsters or tough enemies, but some summoning skill is required before using that effectively. I really like spells that you can use to distance your character with the monsters (conjure flame, blink, mephitic cloud), but IE doesn't seem to have that spell.

if IE could survive early game and get access to freezing cloud (which I think doesn't appear that often on spellbooks), the game could get easy, but without conjure flame/ mephitic cloud I don't know how an IE could survive if caught in a sticky situation. One can use scroll/wand, but it isn't guaranteed one comes across those.

Ice is great! My first win was DEIE. Of course, no matter what I play, I die a lot at low and mid levels.

I think wizards can get away with being sloppy because they have so many recovery spells. The same is true to a lesser extent with fire (due to the damage output and the ability to kite most enemies with sticky flame). With earth and ice, you have to be more diligent about making sure to fight enemies in territory that you have already explored. One huge tip I got from this forum is that if an enemy shouts, lure it away from the area it sent up the shout in. Other monsters will go to the noise, and you can fight it safely one-on-one. If you fight it where it shouted from, you will often get swarmed.

I like ice for the versatility. Throw frost certainly isn't bad- it's not as good as the fire version, but that doesn't make it bad. Throw icicle does great damage. Ice beasts are sturdy and stick around a long time. (Another forum tip that helped me: the first one you cast will have much higher duration than subsequent ones.) I don't usually try to swarm things with ice beasts like I would with a low mana summons. Instead I cast one or maybe two, then use throw icicle / throw frost / freeze / weapon. If the enemy gets distracted by the ice, beast, that's great. If not, the ice beast is probably still getting hits in.

[diviton]

Freeze is probably the best damage dealing level 1 spell in the game. I specify damage dealing, because obviously Summon Butterflies is a level 1 spell.

[crate]

(Another forum tip that helped me: the first one you cast will have much higher duration than subsequent ones.)

I'm pretty sure this is a lie.

[prozacelf]

DEIE is very good, throw frost is quite good and definitely worth learning. Throw frost is very nearly as good as throw flame (1 less range) which is a very good spell for FE. Admittedly throw frost seems worse in comparison but that's because the IE book actually has good spells (like freeze) whereas the FE book pretty much just has sticky flame.

You know that IE can move, right? Ogres are no problem unless you are a naga, but then you have this other thing called poison spit which happens to be extremely good against them.

Condensation shield is probably the worst spell in the IE book but I use it quite often because it is good. It is not as good as some similar spells (at least ozo's armour and phase shift) so I often don't use it because I don't need it, but it's not bad.

Hmmm. I always felt like Throw Frost was the weak sister of that spellbook. Maybe I should use it more.

[Magipi]

You know that IE can move, right? Ogres are no problem unless you are a naga, but then you have this other thing called poison spit which happens to be extremely good against them.

I do not understand this. In what sense does moving help in defeating an ogre?

[pubby]

You know that IE can move, right? Ogres are no problem unless you are a naga, but then you have this other thing called poison spit which happens to be extremely good against them.

I do not understand this. In what sense does moving help in defeating an ogre?

Who says you need to defeat an ogre? Moving allows you to live!

Whenever I play IE I always try and get either throw icicle or summon ice beast castable very quickly. I find those to be safer than freeze.

[rchandra]

I do not understand this. In what sense does moving help in defeating an ogre?

Assuming you realise your need to move before he's next to you, you can walk to a staircase and use it, then return via a different one and try again (or leave him forever).

[kenmtraveller]

I don't know much about playing IE's so sorry for the newbie question:
Does Throw Icicle do enough damage to cold resistant creatures to deal with tougher undead like Skeleton Warriors? Or is there some other high level ice spell for that, or does an IE need to hybridize and kill them in melee?

[rchandra]

You can icicle your way through (0.12) crypt but it's really annoying and you're much better off with dispel undead and melee, if possible. If you're primarily killing things with conjurations you can also use a different element (lightning bolt) or Mystic Blast / Orb of Destruction, but I'd still want melee.

[nordetsa]

What should skill progression be? I feel like by the time I reach D:8 or 9 I should be ready to deal with a hill giant/orc warrior and those of sorts. Don't think I could take out those with freeze. Throw Icicle/summon ice beast may work, but to do that I would have to invest in either conjuration or summoning, and merfolk aptitudes aren't that terrific with either of those. So, maybe train ice magic up to 6, and then go straight to conjuration?

[crate]

Freeze is actually perfectly good for killing orc warriors, they don't have a lot of hp and freeze ignores their AC. For early hill giants you can 'kill' them by taking stairs (treat them like a bigger ogre) if you don't have icicle yet. It looks like my HuIE learned icicle on d:5 and my NaIE on d:4 though so you should definitely have it usable by d:9, even if it's not yet great.

IE should generally get to max power freeze quickly, then work toward your choice of ice beast/icicle with some combination of ice/spellcasting/other appropriate spell skill.

MfIE is also pretty overrated in my experience. It's certainly not bad at all (it is an IE), but it's not really better than several other IE races. It's certainly worse than DrIE, probably marginally better than HuIE.

[prozacelf]

I find MfIE works a bit better for me if I treat it almost like a MfGl. Go hard on polearms and maybe some fighting or dodging, then get some ice to make ozocubu and con shield reliable. And take Fedhas at the earliest opportunity. Certainly it can be done like any other IE though, and that may actually be the smarter way to go about it.

[Sandman25]

Mf has +3 aptitude for Dodging (only Sp has +4, heavy armour would hurt spellcasting too much so -3 Armour aptitude does not hurt early/middle game at all), +4 for Polearms (the best among all melee weapons) and +1 aptitude for Ice Magic (the best among all species) . I don't understand why it is only "probably marginally better" than HuIE.

[crate]

The advantages of mf over hu don't matter until you are past the hard part of the game, and hu actually gets throw icicle earlier.

[Sandman25]

The advantages of mf over hu don't matter until you are past the hard part of the game, and hu actually gets throw icicle earlier.

That means you are going Conj path which is not the only way to play MfIE.

  Code:

   Skills:
 + Level 24,0 Fighting
 - Level 10,0 Short Blades
 - Level 26,0 Polearms
 - Level 20,0 Dodging
 - Level 11,6 Stealth
 - Level 10,0 Stabbing
 - Level 9,0 Traps
 - Level 18,0 Spellcasting
 - Level 9,0 Conjurations
 - Level 11,6 Charms
 - Level 9,0 Translocations
 - Level 20,0 Ice Magic
 - Level 8,0 Air Magic
 - Level 9,0 Invocations
 - Level 14,5 Evocations

Action               |  1- 3|  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
      Throw Icicle      |       |       |       |       |       |       |     6 |     1 |    27 ||    34

[crate]

That means you are going Conj path which is not the only way to play MfIE.

The easiest way to get to Lair with IE is to kill everything with freeze. In fact it is arguably the easiest background in the game to get to Lair. Since you claim to have won other characters I am assuming your tactics aren't too terrible but you've been ignoring freeze and trying to kill everything with a +0 spear or something instead. So try killing everything with freeze.

[Sandman25]

That means you are going Conj path which is not the only way to play MfIE.

The easiest way to get to Lair with IE is to kill everything with freeze. In fact it is arguably the easiest background in the game to get to Lair. Since you claim to have won other characters I am assuming your tactics aren't too terrible but you've been ignoring freeze and trying to kill everything with a +0 spear or something instead. So try killing everything with freeze.

Sorry, I don't get your point. Freeze is Ice Magic spell and Mf has better aptitude for the school than Hu has.

[crate]

hence, mf is marginally better than hu!

on any IE (except trie I guess, but trolls are all trolls) I would learn at least one of summon ice beast/throw icicle before I trained any nonmagical skill

[Sandman25]

hence, mf is marginally better than hu!

on any IE (except trie I guess, but trolls are all trolls) I would learn at least one of summon ice beast/throw icicle before I trained any nonmagical skill

Again it depends on playing style. I have not summoned ice beasts in that game either, wandering muchrooms were enough. MfIE with Freeze/Polearms/Ozocubu's Armour/Stabbing/Short Blades is much stronger than HuIE with Freeze/Polearms/Ozocubu's Armour/Stabbing/Short Blades (Mf has +2 aptitude in Stabbing/SBlades/Stealth also).

[crate]

help

[Lasty]

MfIE with Freeze/Polearms/Ozocubu's Armour/Stabbing/Short Blades is much stronger than HuIE with Freeze/Polearms/Ozocubu's Armour/Stabbing/Short Blades (Mf has +2 aptitude in Stabbing/SBlades/Stealth also).

Uh, okay. But you do realize that this is like saying "TrIE training only UC is much stronger than DEIE training only UC," right?

[Sandman25]

MfIE with Freeze/Polearms/Ozocubu's Armour/Stabbing/Short Blades is much stronger than HuIE with Freeze/Polearms/Ozocubu's Armour/Stabbing/Short Blades (Mf has +2 aptitude in Stabbing/SBlades/Stealth also).

Uh, okay. But you do realize that this is like saying "TrIE training only UC is much stronger than DEIE training only UC," right?

Right, good wording! Comparing MfIE with HuIE when both have Ice Storm (where Hu's Conjuration and Spellcasting compensate Mf's Ice Magic) seems weird to me too

I can repeat one more time: MfIE can be a hybrid with Ice Magic and Polearms and in this case it is clearly superior to Hu. If it chooses to worship Fedhas (which is a good choice), then it becomes even more superior.

I realize I am not well understood here: for some reason I believe hybrid is the best way to play MfIE, at least this is what I tried when I wanted to win a hybrid. I read about it somewhere on the forum viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6618&p=88503

[rebthor]

Given the choice between taking advice from crate and taking from Sandman25, I think I know which way I'd lean.

[Lasty]

for some reason I believe hybrid is the best way to play MfIE, at least this is what I tried when I wanted to win a hybrid.

I don't think anyone's trying to say that this isn't a possibility, or that doing so is easier with merfolk than with humans. I do think that people are trying to make the point that IEs are actually very good when you specialize in Ice magic rather than training polearms off the bat, and that if you're doing that (which is both effective and probably the most obvious default option), then humans are able to get Throw Icicle (a very strong spell) up and running before merfolk are.

Whatever type of IE you are, just training Ice to the point where Freeze does max damage is a great way to get to Lair without much fuss.

[Sandman25]

Seriously, you are like completely disregarding the entire important part of the game. You probably will not find a Fedhas altar before D:4. Over 50% of deaths occur before D:4, and with better play that number only goes up.

  Code:

     0 | D:1      | MfIE, the Merfolk Ice Elementalist, began the quest for the Orb.
   821 | D:1      | Reached skill level 4 in Ice Magic
  1539 | D:2      | Reached skill level 5 in Ice Magic
  3305 | D:4      | Reached skill level 6 in Ice Magic
  3429 | D:4      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  3442 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  3499 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Fedhas Madash


As you can see MfIE has advantage at stage where "Over 50% of deaths occur" because Freeze is one school spell and that school is Ice Magic.
Case closed

[pickled_heretic]

I don't know a thing about merfolk and I have never won but since you are asking for advice only up to lair i have some experience there. I have an easier time with ogre IE than with most other magic backgrounds. I ignore throw frost and icicle and just work with freeze, ozocobu armor and condensation shield. As far as killing ogres, I just walk up to their face with ice armor/shield and freeze them to death but you may have to find another way with a lower Hp pool. I imagine that picking up throw frost and softening them up at a distance would do a good job. I would just ignore polearms until lair so you can get your bnb spells up and running. Once you are in lair you need a hydra killer and you could use poles or icicle but that is probably where builds begin to diverge based on race and gods.

[Sandman25]

yes, and everyone acknowledges that!

mf is marginally better than hu

Let me repeat it in context:

MfIE is also pretty overrated in my experience. It's certainly not bad at all (it is an IE), but it's not really better than several other IE races. It's certainly worse than DrIE, probably marginally better than HuIE.

I am a weak player but I got MfIE to ZoT5 without many issues which does not happen often. To do that you should not play it like DEIE (i.e. going for Ice Storm and Vehumet) but hybridize early and ignore Ice Storm. So yes, it is overrated for the former playstyle (Conjuration -2 hurts, Spellcasting -1 does not help either), but it is not for the latter where ALL aptitudes are positive and some are crazy (+4 Polearms, +3 Dodging with Fedhas' Rain, +2 Stabbing with wandering mushrooms). That's my point and I see there are other players who play MfIE like I do so I don't want to continue arguing with a guy who lacks fantasy and for some reason tries to come with logical arguments for a guy who "always tells bullshit".

[DracheReborn]

MfIE is also pretty overrated in my experience. It's certainly not bad at all (it is an IE), but it's not really better than several other IE races. It's certainly worse than DrIE, probably marginally better than HuIE.

As a pretty poor player who tries to hybridize MfIE's early (i.e. skill Polearms before the L4 spells), it's not obvious to me why DrIE should be so good. Is it the higher HP and AC that Dr start with? If yes, then presumably the other good races for IE should feature this blend of decent apts and robustness - I guess Dg, Na, maybe Gh?

And where does that leave say DE and SE? Good apts for Ice and Conj/Summoning, but are frail.

[Sar]

Stabbing/Short Blades

Why? Surely confusestabbing is good, but poking a confused enemy with a polearm or throw icicle is good to and doesn't require you to put your XP into something you likely won't use later, and also doesn't require you to tediously switch weapons.

ignore Ice Storm

It's not that hard to get as a hybrid MfIE, at least not with Ash and probably not with Veh either, and is a fun spell.

[Sealer]

hence, mf is marginally better than hu!

on any IE (except trie I guess, but trolls are all trolls) I would learn at least one of summon ice beast/throw icicle before I trained any nonmagical skill

Again it depends on playing style. I have not summoned ice beasts in that game either, wandering muchrooms were enough. MfIE with Freeze/Polearms/Ozocubu's Armour/Stabbing/Short Blades is much stronger than HuIE with Freeze/Polearms/Ozocubu's Armour/Stabbing/Short Blades (Mf has +2 aptitude in Stabbing/SBlades/Stealth also).

Ughhh you put points into both polearms, short blades and stabbing before you get summon ice beast/throw icicle?

That is really, really horrible. Thankfully, you were playing a mf of fedhas.

There are plenty of ways you can play MfIE, since it really isn't a particularly difficult combo, but training polearms, short blades and stealth at the same time really isn't an optimal choice.

And yes, Freeze is completely insane, and you should use it excessively in the early game.

About throw frost, there is no reason to not pick it up on an ice elementalist, and at enough power it can kill or weaken strong enemies from max range. Not using it before you have throw icicle/summon ice beast castable equals reducing the damage you deal.

Tl;dr crate is correct.

[crate]

As a pretty poor player who tries to hybridize MfIE's early (i.e. skill Polearms before the L4 spells), it's not obvious to me why DrIE should be so good. Is it the higher HP and AC that Dr start with?

DrIE is good because Dr is by a good deal imo the strongest race that isn't DD or fast. Great defenses for free and great apts for everything you care about.