New spellcaster, need advice

[Agamentium]

I just beat the game for the first time as a MiFi of Okawaru. I've been playing as this for over a year, so I don't know how to play as anything else. I'm now trying to play as a spell caster, and I'm at a bit of a loss.

Trying out a DeFe and I need help.

Mainly I need to know what I should train/when I should train it, and how I should go about armor. Any other advice would be appreciated though.

[Sorted]

I've won as a DeCj, so I will give you some advice for that. Its probably similar as a DeFe, but one thing I found as a squishy wizard is I never want to be in melee range with an opponent, and one of DeFe best beginning spells, sticky flames, requires melee range to cast.

So here is some advice on DeCj of Vehumet vs .12 and you can take what you will from it.

Since you played as a Fighter you probably have a good grasp on what can and can't kill you fast at melee range. My experience as a Wizard was pretty much never let yourself get into melee range. Everything kills you quick.

Stairs are your friend as MP is a precious commodity: The biggest issue you will have is learning how to manage MP, when to keep fighting, when to run. You will learn this quick as you won't get very far until this technique is mastered.

With the starting Conjuration book I got to where I only memorized the two level four spells. IMB (Mystic Blast) and (IBS (Battle Sphere). It isn't that I don't like the other spells, but that Crawl being a game where you are forced to make choices, I would rather only have so many Conjuration spells in my quiver, and then add some spells of another school into the fold also. Lets pretend we are going to go Fire Element as our second school, you can go any direction you want, but as an example here we go.

You need to take the first fire spell Vehumet offers you and pump a few levels into it. I usually go to 4 or 5. This tells Vehumet that "hey, I want fire spells" and most importantly that you want Fire Storm to be on his final gift list. Doing this should get Vehumet to offer you, among other things, the level 5 fireball spell, the level six Bolt of Fire spell, and Fire Storm. There is room for other stuff in your arsenal, and I personally really like using the level six spell poison arrow, single target and seems to do more damage than it should.

When you start the game put spell casting and conjuration both at 50% training. Use Magic Dart until level four, then memorize both level four spells, IMB and IBS, then continue to mainly use magic dart until level 9 with the other two spells as a backup when you get in a tough situation. At level 9 both of those level four spells will become hungerless. At that point its all gravy for awhile and you have plenty of options to train into whatever area you want too. I don't want to use the word OP, mostly because don't wanna see a nerf, but once you get IBS online it is awesome for along time, although I find once I get fire storm going I tend to quit casting IBS.

Also, don't forget to get the standard defensive spells going once you have got your attack online. Repel Missile, Deflect Missile, Phase Shift, C. Blink, et cetera.

Once you can figure out how to get to lvl 9 consistently (which isn't hard), and then figure out how to not run out of MP (which isn't hard after a few deaths) then this build is pretty easy.

[kenmtraveller]

Here is some DEFE specific advice. a DEFE is my only win so far, although I got 5 runes and died on a 2nd one.
1. turn off everything but conjuration and spellcasting, then focus conjuration.
2. When both of those are at 3, turn on fire magic as well.
3. Turn off spellcasting when your 2nd level spells are hungerless.
4. At level 4, learn throw flame and sticky flame.
5. Don't wear armor, except for robes. pick up a buckler if you see one and train 1 rank in shields. Try to find a short blade with a good brand, or a staff of fire/conjuration, but don't train a weapon skill until lategame
6. for god, pick vehumet or sif muna if you want mana/spells help, ashenzari for information, or kiku for branching into necromancy, which has good synergy with conj/fire
7. try to find repel missiles, blink, flight, and regeneration and get them castable, but only when your main fire killing spell is <4% failure rate.
8. try to get Bolt of Fire
9. branch into earth for single target damage; iron shot complements fire spells well
10. after sticky flame is 0% failure/low hunger, train a few levels in fighting, and a fair bit of dodging.

There is more , but that should get you going.

[Agamentium]

I'm a little paranoid about sticky flame just because I don't want to get that close to enemies. I figure if I stand next to anything come midgame, I'll be dead.

[kenmtraveller]

Sticky Flame is THE reason to play a FE. If you aren't going to use it, play something else instead.

[rchandra]

remember, you don't have to wait next to him while he keeps burning.

[Agamentium]

Yeah nevermind I actually just started to use sticky flame. I take back what I said.

[Agamentium]

I'm a bit confused on how Vehumet's gifts work. The wiki says you get it at *, but I got to **** without getting one. That or I just can't find it or something.

[hxy]

The spell appears as the first item on the "M" screen, assuming you have not learnt it.

[Agamentium]

Does it say something like 'Vehumet has given you a gift' like with Okawaru?

Edit: I downloaded the game over a year ago, if that could something to do with it.

[hxy]

Yup.. the new gift mechanism comes with 0.12

[moocowmoocow]

I've seen it said elsewhere:
1. Get your level 6 bread and butter spell online
2. Get some defense
3. Everything else

So basically B-line towards bolt of fire or fireball. Swiftness and repel missiles are always no brainer auto memorize. If you find haste get that castable ASAP. Stick with robes, hopefully you find a nice rF or rMagic one, but mostly you blast the shit out of stuff before they can do any serious damage. Don't be afraid to try other elemental schools too. My first pure caster win was OpVM and it was way more fun to me than starting FE (you can always transition into fire or other conjurations). You might want to try Necromancer or Ice Elementalist because they are awesome compliment to melee but still have decent power by themselves.

[thejasper]

I've got a MiFi win and am working on a DEWz win currently (at least, I hope its a win and not yasd). What I've learned, at least early on, is that conjure flame is your friend. As a wizard I also get Mephitic Cloud, which rocks and blink as an escape option. Still, conjure flame in a corridor keeps almost all early threats at bay. Be careful though, because at some point some monsters start walking through fire. All undead do but that is an advantage. Yaks do it to though, but not always. Trust it but always have an escape option. Always.

[Sorted]

If they walk through fire, just stand right next to the flame and they will stand in the flame, or better summon an imp and let the imp stand right next to the flame. Enemies that walk through fire is a good thing for you.

[bobross419]

If they walk through fire, just stand right next to the flame and they will stand in the flame, or better summon an imp and let the imp stand right next to the flame. Enemies that walk through fire is a good thing for you.

Only if you can take the hits. You can get an Orc Knight standing in a flame and covered in sticky flame but he'll still pound you pretty quick if you have no defenses and low HP.

[XuaXua]

Or if he has a ranged or reaching weapon as higher warrior Orcs tend to.

[thejasper]

Using yourself as a block to keep an enemy in a flame can work, but as a caster I don't think it should be in your game plan to go head to head. Post Lair this is a really bad plan, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Personally, if I see living enemies walk through my flames it means retreat time for me. My wizards are cowards. When I am not a coward is when my wizards die. I have yet to learn this rule completely. Thus, I still die a lot.

[EvilAshe]

Conjure Flame is the secret best spell in the FE starting book. Pick it up as soon as you can reliably cast it and using it to keep enemys at bay as you spam Flame Tounge/run away is the secret to every halfway-tough early game melee enemy. I don't even bother with Throw Flame (or Inner Flame for that matter).
Sticky Flame steals all the credit and Fireball is all flashy but it's Conjure Flame that'll save your life most often

[forest]

Train DeFE on "Ten rune challenge sprint". It's a great way to get started, because you will need every trick in the book to get far.

[Sorted]

Using yourself as a block to keep an enemy in a flame can work, but as a caster I don't think it should be in your game plan to go head to head. Post Lair this is a really bad plan, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Personally, if I see living enemies walk through my flames it means retreat time for me. My wizards are cowards. When I am not a coward is when my wizards die. I have yet to learn this rule completely. Thus, I still die a lot.

Hopefully Post Lair you have some better spells online.

It is good to retreat as a wizard, but remember the second part of my suggestion. Use summon imp. This is especially helpful if you are in a corridor as you have more control over where the imp is. I'll do my best bad aiiscii impersonation

XXXXXXXXX
X..I@#....
XXXXXXXXX

The I is the imp
@ is you, and # is the baddie sitting in the fire. You simply swap places with the imp

XXXXXXXXX
X..@I#....
XXXXXXXXX

Now the baddie is still in the flame and is wailing away at your imp while you sit back and watch. Of course these are early game tactics where the enemies are a bit easier to manage as you plan on getting better spells online come midgame. Mephic cloud is also a big part of the equation for this kind of strategy.

[Agamentium]

I've gotten the early game down, it just took some getting used to. Only gotten to lair 3 though, where I died to Rupert.

Is there any way to update my version of the game, or do I have to delete mine and download the new one?

[thejasper]

I've gotten the early game down, it just took some getting used to. Only gotten to lair 3 though, where I died to Rupert.

Is there any way to update my version of the game, or do I have to delete mine and download the new one?

Just install over your current installation. You will get a warning if you start a saved game on an older version that there is no way back.

[Psieye]

I hardly bother with the installer. Just download and unpack - by default you'll get a new folder named with the version you grabbed.

[khalil]

Personaly, I'd sugest a DeCj instead of DeFe once you get the new version.
Fe gets screwed over by crimson imps and other creatures with rF+++, as you have almost no spells that can hurt them.
New Cj is amazing, with not a single resistable spell.
My advice: Train up spellcasting so you can memorize battlesphere the instant you get to level four, then powerlevel charms untill you have it at a castable rate. This will allow you to kill trolls with magic dart.
Then memorize IMB for area spells, and you're set until Orc:4.
My Cjs worship Kiku because I like branching into necromancy for twisted resurection and dispell undead, but you might get more milage from Veh or Sif.

[crate]

Crimson imps can't kill you pretty much, and nothing else you run into until extremely late in the game has rF+++. Cj may be better than FE, but it's not because of resistances if so.

[Sorted]

Personaly, I'd sugest a DeCj instead of DeFe once you get the new version.
Fe gets screwed over by crimson imps and other creatures with rF+++, as you have almost no spells that can hurt them.
New Cj is amazing, with not a single resistable spell.
My advice: Train up spellcasting so you can memorize battlesphere the instant you get to level four, then powerlevel charms untill you have it at a castable rate. This will allow you to kill trolls with magic dart.
Then memorize IMB for area spells, and you're set until Orc:4.
My Cjs worship Kiku because I like branching into necromancy for twisted resurection and dispell undead, but you might get more milage from Veh or Sif.

Unless you have other plans for Charms, you don't need to pump any skills into Charm at the beginning. Do what I said above and split spellcasting and conj 50% 50% to level 9 and you will have hungerless IMB and IBS. Then you can branch out from there. The benefit to ignoring charms and hex and focusing soley on conj is that conj is going to be useful if not necessary for your level six spell. Why take a side road memorizing hexes or charm when you already know you need as much conj as you can get ASAP for your lvl 6 blaster spell?

[khalil]

@sorted
I like having IBS online as soon as possible.
Perhaps it's just me, but I find IBS and IMB together to be about as powerfull as a non-IBS fireball.
It could be that I'm just doing everything wrong though. I'll try your idea out.

[Agamentium]

o.O Yikes they updated the game a lot.

[Psieye]

Personally, I like getting IMB online first on a Cj. Then I can put EXP into Charms to get Battlesphere online, as the Charms training is going to be useful later on (Haste) anyway. You don't want to put too much training into Charms with only Battlesphere though - something like Lv 4 is sufficient.

[Sorted]

I am sure there are lots of valid builds, but in my experience, and I played alot of DeCj's before I finally settled on my build, there is no reason to add hex or charm in your early build. Those are points better spent in fighting, dodging, et cetera. If you split SpellCasting and Conj 50% 50% come lvl 9 and 6% exp you will have hungerless IMB and IBS. Even before then you can safely cast IBS and IMB in emergency situations where magic dart is insufficient. Once you hit that mark at level 9 you are just a flat out killer for a long time, you become an out of depth blaster mage and nothing can really compete with you for quite awhile. It actually quite easy to hit level 9, I tried it yesterday to test as I have been spending all my time lately learning how to play melee, and I died twice at level one, and then easily hit level 9.

Even if you do plan on getting charms or hexes, you can easily delay until you get your mage online, which means to get IMB and IBS working by level 9, and then get some points into dodging and fighting.

@sorted
I like having IBS online as soon as possible.
Perhaps it's just me, but I find IBS and IMB together to be about as powerfull as a non-IBS fireball.
It could be that I'm just doing everything wrong though. I'll try your idea out.

[Volteccer_Jack]

With DE aptitude, the first few levels of Charms are practically free, and can get Battlesphere castable substantially sooner. Getting Battlesphere hungerless isn't a concern, because you just cast it once and then Magic Dart everything to death.

The benefit to ignoring charms and hex and focusing soley on conj is that conj is going to be useful if not necessary for your level six spell.

Hexes is just as useful for that level six spell, and if you're a DE, will level much faster than Conjurations. Though to be honest I don't use Prism all that much because Iskenderun's LOLsphere is so good. Dazzling Spray is really effing good regardless, so training Hexes on a DECj works just fine.

[Sorted]

I went and did some testing. We are quibbling about something quite trivial though, as getting to level 10 shouldn't be hard in this build, so if you plan on using charms I guess your idea isn't all bad.

I just went and did a run and went 33% conj, and 66% Charms. I got charms to 12.xxx by level 9. I didn't really notice Battle Sphere coming online that much faster. Even when you go 50% and 50% spellcasting and Conj, you are still able to use your BattleSphere whenever you get in a pinch on your journey to level 9. I am not sure how much difference it makes, but it feels to me that the bonus Int seems to be a big factor in things also.

Personally I don't plan on switching to the "add a few charms" during powerup, because I would prefer to be able to cast both IBS and IMB hungerless when I get to level 9, and if you go Vehemut you already know your going to need all the SpellCasting you can get to keep up with the spells.

I am not sure which level six spell your saying Hex'es is useful for. If your talking about the Fulminent Prism, that is a level 5 spell. Level six would be Bolt of Fire, Poison Arrow, et cetera. Those spells are Conj + Magic school.

A quick note about Dazzling Spray and Fulminent Prism. I used to memorize them and liked both of them, but then I realized that IBS and IMB does everything I need. Those other spells got no play time, so I quit memorized them so I would have more space for other spells.

The biggest problem with Dazzling Spray is that it doesn't always work, and why bother stunning the enemy when you can simply blast them to start with?

With DE aptitude, the first few levels of Charms are practically free, and can get Battlesphere castable substantially sooner. Getting Battlesphere hungerless isn't a concern, because you just cast it once and then Magic Dart everything to death.

The benefit to ignoring charms and hex and focusing soley on conj is that conj is going to be useful if not necessary for your level six spell.

Hexes is just as useful for that level six spell, and if you're a DE, will level much faster than Conjurations. Though to be honest I don't use Prism all that much because Iskenderun's LOLsphere is so good. Dazzling Spray is really effing good regardless, so training Hexes on a DECj works just fine.

[XuaXua]

I don't even bother with Throw Flame (or Inner Flame for that matter).

Inner Flame is only truly useful with a confuse, charm or slow spell; imho it should be removed from this starting book and repackaged with one or more ofthe Hexes spells I mentioned.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Those are points better spent in fighting, dodging, et cetera.

Spell success rate and power use the average of the spell schools. This means that 10 conj/0 charms and 9 conj/1 charms will result in identical battlespheres, all other things equal. The latter costs less XP to achieve.

5 conj/5 charms costs significantly less XP to achieve, even moreso with DE's ridiculous charms aptitude. This gives you much more free XP to put into fighting or dodging. Note that while I love making my characters do a little bit of everything, a Conjurer really does just fine with no melee skill whatsoever, so my recommendation is to put the excess XP right back into magic skills, meaning you'll have a better battlesphere for the same XP expenditure.

I didn't really notice Battle Sphere coming online that much faster.

Spoiler: show

VolteccerJack the Ruinous (Deep Elf Conjurer) Turns: 2646, Time: 00:05:33

HP 28/28 AC 2 Str 5 XL: 5 Next: 57%
MP 15/15 EV 13 Int 21 God:
Gold 136 SH 0 Dex 15 Spells: 3 memorised, 3 levels left

Res.Fire : . . . See Invis. : . (no weapon)
Res.Cold : . . . Warding : . a - +0 elf robe
Life Prot.: . . . Conserve : . (no shield)
Res.Poison: . Res.Corr. : . (no helmet)
Res.Elec. : . Clarity : . (no cloak)
Sust.Abil.: . . Spirit.Shd : . (no gloves)
Res.Mut. : . Stasis : . (no boots)
Res.Rott. : . Ctrl.Telep.: . (no amulet)
Saprovore : . . . Flight : . (no ring)
(no ring)

@: slightly resistant to hostile enchantments, fairly stealthy
A: no striking features
a: no special abilities


You are on level 3 of the Dungeon.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 3 of its levels.

You have collected 116 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Armour
a - a +0 elven robe (worn)
Comestibles
b - 2 bread rations
f - a sausage
Scrolls
g - a scroll labeled EMAAR ENUCE
h - 2 scrolls labeled BOSTRI PIOD
i - a scroll labeled GUIVAE GIYNAYPS
j - 2 scrolls labeled XOLO SERRE
l - a scroll labeled QELOVIATHEGHE
m - a scroll labeled JENGUD UDAEKLI
o - a scroll labeled KACIANGO LYURI
p - a scroll labeled KLITTU JUUBERUK
r - a scroll labeled JYOPONONLA
s - a scroll labeled ALIGEECIZO
t - a scroll labeled RUNTAN OMAUHA
Potions
d - 3 fuming black potions
e - an orange potion
k - 4 sedimented black potions
n - a slimy black potion
q - an emulsified blue potion
Books
c - a book of Conjurations

Spells Type Level
*Magic Dart Conjuration 1
*Force Lance Conjuration 2
Dazzling Spray Conjuration/Hexes 3
Iskenderun's Mystic Blast Conjuration 4
*Iskenderun's Battlesphere Conjuration/Charms 4
Fulminant Prism Conjuration/Hexes 5


Skills:
- Level 2.4 Dodging
- Level 2.4 Stealth
- Level 3.1 Spellcasting
- Level 5.7 Conjurations
+ Level 5.3 Charms


You have 3 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger
a - Magic Dart Conj ##### 1% 1 None
b - Force Lance Conj #####.. 1% 2 ##.....
c - Iskenderun's Battles Conj/Chrm #####.... 17% 4 ####...

Spoiler: show

VolteccerJack the Ruinous (Deep Elf Conjurer) Turns: 2550, Time: 00:04:34

HP 32/32 AC 2 Str 5 XL: 6 Next: 59%
MP 21/21 EV 13 Int 22 God:
Gold 105 SH 0 Dex 15 Spells: 3 memorised, 10 levels left

Res.Fire : . . . See Invis. : . (no weapon)
Res.Cold : . . . Warding : . a - +0 elf robe
Life Prot.: . . . Conserve : . (no shield)
Res.Poison: . Res.Corr. : . (no helmet)
Res.Elec. : . Clarity : . (no cloak)
Sust.Abil.: . . Spirit.Shd : . (no gloves)
Res.Mut. : . Stasis : . (no boots)
Res.Rott. : . Flight : . (no amulet)
Saprovore : . . . (no ring)
(no ring)

@: slightly resistant to hostile enchantments, fairly stealthy
A: no striking features
a: no special abilities


You are on level 3 of the Dungeon.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 3 of its levels.

You have collected 85 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Armour
a - a +0 elven robe (worn)
Comestibles
b - 3 bread rations
i - 3 meat rations
j - 10 sultanas
p - a pear
Scrolls
e - 5 scrolls labeled SHASYLUSHRERCHY
f - a scroll labeled BASANO DOIBO
g - a scroll labeled YMOTASKORPHU
k - a scroll labeled LEXESU BUL
l - a scroll labeled SYODIGRYWKI
m - a scroll labeled TWOLEGRIROE
o - a scroll labeled KHIECVUEWK
q - a scroll labeled YGOPPOMUTO
Jewellery
d - a +5 ring of intelligence
Potions
h - a fizzy yellow potion
n - a purple potion
r - a lumpy purple potion
s - a lumpy white potion
Books
c - a book of Conjurations

Spells Type Level
*Magic Dart Conjuration 1
*Force Lance Conjuration 2
Dazzling Spray Conjuration/Hexes 3
Iskenderun's Mystic Blast Conjuration 4
*Iskenderun's Battlesphere Conjuration/Charms 4
Fulminant Prism Conjuration/Hexes 5


Skills:
- Level 2.4 Dodging
- Level 2.4 Stealth
+ Level 6.3 Spellcasting
+ Level 7.0 Conjurations


You have 10 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger
a - Magic Dart Conj #### 1% 1 None
b - Force Lance Conj #####. 1% 2 None
c - Iskenderun's Battles Conj/Chrm ###..... 21% 4 ###....

The character following your plan is an entire experience level higher and his Battlesphere STILL has a lower success rate and less spellpower (even the +5 int ring only results in making the success rates tie).

And here they are at XL7, 0%:

Spoiler: show

+ Level 5.3 Spellcasting
+ Level 6.9 Conjurations
- Level 5.3 Charms


You have 5 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger
a - Magic Dart Conj ##### 1% 1 None
b - Force Lance Conj ######. 1% 2 None
c - Iskenderun's Battles Conj/Chrm #####.... 12% 4 ####...
d - Iskenderun's Mystic Conj ######... 8% 4 ####...

Spoiler: show

+ Level 7.0 Spellcasting
+ Level 7.1 Conjurations


You have 9 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger
a - Magic Dart Conj #### 1% 1 None
b - Force Lance Conj #####. 1% 2 None
c - Iskenderun's Battles Conj/Chrm ###..... 21% 4 ###....
d - Iskenderun's Mystic Conj #####... 6% 4 ###....

The Battlesphere gap has gotten even bigger. As you can see, at equal levels, the Charms-training DECj has a significant advantage when casting Battlesphere (not shown: the one using your plan has greater miscast severity as well). BUT WAIT! Look at those practically identical Mystic Blasts. The character using your plan is just flat out worse.

Personally I don't plan on switching to the "add a few charms" during powerup, because I would prefer to be able to cast both IBS and IMB hungerless when I get to level 9, and if you go Vehemut you already know your going to need all the SpellCasting you can get to keep up with the spells.

Level 9, you say? Behold:

  Code:

HP  45/45        AC  3     Str  5      XL: 9   Next:  4%

 + Level 10.4 Spellcasting
 + Level 9.5 Conjurations

c - Iskenderun's Battles  Conj/Chrm      #####...     10%         4    None
d - Iskenderun's Mystic   Conj           ######..     1%          4    None

  Code:

HP  45/45        AC  9     Str  5      XL: 9   Next: 30%

 - Level 10.5 Spellcasting
 - Level 9.5 Conjurations
 + Level 5.6 Charms

c - Iskenderun's Battles  Conj/Chrm      ######...    2%          4    None
d - Iskenderun's Mystic   Conj           #######..    1%          4    None

I mean really, now.

Not to mention that there's absolutely no need to get hungerless battlesphere whatsoever. You cast it once a fight and then magic dart everybody to death. Also, dead people leave corpses (amazing, I know). What you SHOULD be concerned with is getting the failure rate into single digits ASAP, so you don't waste time and MP miscasting it. Even a single level of Charms helps with that, and is so cheap you'd have to be insane to pass it up (as a DE, the first level of Charms literally takes like, two orcs to achieve).

The biggest problem with Dazzling Spray is that it doesn't always work, and why bother stunning the enemy when you can simply blast them to start with?

Have you tried blasting them with Dazzling Spray? The damage is respectable all game long, and it hits multiple targets on a very generous spread. PLUS, you get a really nice debuff effect.

Sure, it doesn't do quite as much damage as Mystic Blast, but Iskenderun's LOLsphere gives you all the damage you could ever want WHILE you blind 3 enemies at once. And guess what? Deep elves have an amazing Hexes aptitude, too!!

[Tristian]

Sticky Flame is THE reason to play a FE. If you aren't going to use it, play something else instead.

True dat.

[Sandman25]

Level 9, you say? Behold:

  Code:

HP  45/45        AC  3     Str  5      XL: 9   Next:  4%

 + Level 10.4 Spellcasting
 + Level 9.5 Conjurations

c - Iskenderun's Battles  Conj/Chrm      #####...     10%         4    None
d - Iskenderun's Mystic   Conj           ######..     1%          4    None

  Code:

HP  45/45        AC  9     Str  5      XL: 9   Next: 30%

 - Level 10.5 Spellcasting
 - Level 9.5 Conjurations
 + Level 5.6 Charms

c - Iskenderun's Battles  Conj/Chrm      ######...    2%          4    None
d - Iskenderun's Mystic   Conj           #######..    1%          4    None

That's not fair comparison. Second character has much more EXP in magic skills, resulting in better Spellcasting and Charms while having the same Conjurations.

[Volteccer_Jack]

That's not fair comparison. Second character has much more EXP in magic skills, resulting in better Spellcasting and Charms while having the same Conjurations.

Not even a single point of XP was spent on anything other than Spellcasting/Conjuration/Charms for either of those characters. Both characters have the initial 2.4 Dodging and Stealth skill, and 0.0 in everything else. Both characters have the same Int stat, both are wearing robes, and neither of them are using any items or gods to boost their spellcasting ability. Neither character has ever been drained (since that would lower XL, but not skills, and thus skew the results).

The skill difference is due entirely to the tiny XP lead the second character has; 30% towards the next level up instead of 4%. And keep in mind, a solid chunk of that went towards the .1 Spellcasting skill. For reference, as an XL9 DECj, going from 0.0 Charms to 1.0 Charms is equal to about 1% of the experience towards XL10 (again, you'd have to be insane to pass up that kind of bargain). I specifically levelled Spellcasting and Conjuration to the same amount to show off just how cheap Charms skill is with the DE's crazy +4 aptitude.

But here, just for you I painstakingly equalized both characters at XL9, 81%:

  Code:

 Skills:
 - Level 6.9 Dodging
 - Level 2.4 Stealth
 + Level 10.7 Spellcasting
 - Level 9.5 Conjurations
 - Level 5.6 Charms


You have 15 spell levels left.

  Code:

 Skills:
 - Level 6.9 Dodging
 - Level 2.4 Stealth
 + Level 11.8 Spellcasting
 - Level 9.5 Conjurations


You have 17 spell levels left.

And keep in mind, the respective failure chances of the 2 characters for Battlesphere are now 2% and 8%. So even at this point, where the Charms-training DECj has matched the other in every way, he STILL has a more reliable and more powerful Battlesphere.

So, basically, you're giving up a whole bunch of survivability by way of an earlier, more reliable, and more powerful Battlesphere, AND a headstart on Haste, all in the name of...2 spell levels.

[Sandman25]

But here, just for you I painstakingly equalized both characters at XL9, 81%:

  Code:

 Skills:
 - Level 6.9 Dodging
 - Level 2.4 Stealth
 + Level 10.7 Spellcasting
 - Level 9.5 Conjurations
 - Level 5.6 Charms


You have 15 spell levels left.

  Code:

 Skills:
 - Level 6.9 Dodging
 - Level 2.4 Stealth
 + Level 11.8 Spellcasting
 - Level 9.5 Conjurations


You have 17 spell levels left.

It looks like 26% towards XL 10 provides enough XP to train either 1.1 skill level in Spellcasting (from 10.7 to 11.8) or 5.6 skill level in Charms (from 0 to 5.6).
I would train charms early too (never tried 0.12 Cj).

[Sorted]

I am not really one to argue. I enjoy having a discussion and when someone can bring something to the table that is an improvement I can accept that and change my ideas.

I will try building up Charms to lvl. 5 and see how I like it.

Regarding Dazzling Spray. I don't particularly have anything against Dazzling Spray or even the Prism spell, and I used to memorize them both and use them (Not really prism so much) but Dazzling Spray. Then I got to the point where I realized I jut don't "need" those spells, IBS and IMB do everything I need from the Conj end of things and I can use those spell slots and points memorizing other spells. Ya, they have their places, but IMB can cover for them.

One thing I like about this game is there are so many valid strategies. I remember when I was playing a Wizard and then I read on this board where someone said using Imps was a good strategy. I thought they were crazy, but I tried it, and wow, it opened up a whole new avenue of tactics and playability from using that one spell. It went from a cast off that I thought was useless, to my favorite spell.

So, no, I don't really use Dazzling Spray, as IMB does very well in the early game, and if I want a Dazzling Spray type attack, I can get the level six poison cloud spell which confuses the enemy also, but is smite targetted and also poisons them.

[Lasty]

So, no, I don't really use Dazzling Spray, as IMB does very well in the early game, and if I want a Dazzling Spray type attack, I can get the level six poison cloud spell which confuses the enemy also, but is smite targetted and also poisons them.

It sounds like you're confusing Poisonous Cloud with Mephitic Cloud. The former is everything you describe except that it does not confuse enemies. Mephitic Cloud is a level 3 spell which doesn't poison enemies and isn't smite-targeted, but does confuse enemies who don't resist poison.

You might find Dazzling Spray useful despite the existence of these other spells, since it does a good job of hitting three monsters for decent damage, and it comes in your starting book, meaning you have access to it before you have access Mephitic Cloud or Poisonous Cloud (as a Conjurer, anyway). It's pretty useful against early orc and killer bee packs.

[Sandman25]

I saw a player using Dazzling Spray in ZoT5. It is great for stabbers.

[Sorted]

Maybe I am confusing the mechanics, because I was using the lvl 6 poison cloud spell last night and the baddies were going around confused. Maybe its because they got poisoned and showed the ? confused sign because they couldn't see where the attack was coming from.

I am sure Dazzling Spray has its uses, but when your playing a Blaster Mage build you will probably simply blow up the enemy instead of spending time status effecting it first.

[Psieye]

For a blaster, Dazzling Spray's other selling point is more appealing: the triple targetting. A quiet AoE that's not as luck dependent as IMB. Useful for clearing up mooks quickly.

For a stabber, Dazzling Spray lets you invis-stab (awake) guys who can see invis.

[XuaXua]

Dazzling spray vs Mephitic cloud? Both are low enough that the skill investment in either is negligible considering investment in Conjurations pretty much allows you to use either.