When to use utility spells?

[nordetsa]

By utility I mean spells like swiftness/haste/phase shift and such. I have a bad habit of forgetting them, but even if I know I have those skills I'm not sure when to use those. Right now I have all three, but I personally found it better to kill enemies rather than using a turn to use those spells.

Any advice on how to use such skills? I do apply reflect missile if there's like 3~4 yaktaurs, but even still I think 2 fireball ends the problem faster.

[Sandman25]

By utility I mean spells like swiftness/haste/phase shift and such. I have a bad habit of forgetting them, but even if I know I have those skills I'm not sure when to use those. Right now I have all three, but I personally found it better to kill enemies rather than using a turn to use those spells.

Any advice on how to use such skills? I do apply reflect missile if there's like 3~4 yaktaurs, but even still I think 2 fireball ends the problem faster.

I always have repel/deflect missiles on by making some changes to init.txt so warning about the spell "about to expire" stops my autotravel and then I press F2 which is mapped to casting the spell.

Permanent Swiftness is a bad idea because it decreases effective Traps skill so I usually activate it only when I want to kite a monster or can retreat without hurry.

Phased Shift is useful for me when I know I cannot kill monsters in less than 3 turns (3 Yaktaurs) or when a monster hits very hard (a single Cyclops/Fire Giant).

Haste is very powerful. Cast it before (monster hasn't noticed you so you can retreat for casting the spell) or at the start (if the monster has noticed you) of every fight with dangerous monsters, just be sure you don't have any contamination before the cast (even grey!).

[Psieye]

Ideally, there'd be 3~4 turns between you spotting a monster and the fight actually starting (e.g. because you're waiting for the now-out-of-sight monster to walk to a certain position), during which you have nothing to do. This is when you cast Phase Shift and Haste (as well as other things like Regen or DChannel if applicable).

How applicable that ideal is depends on exactly what kind of character you are - a blaster mage who is still doing Vaults who has those spells? A melee who is doing extended with those spells? A summoner camping behind 7000 minions?

[nordetsa]

Ideally, there'd be 3~4 turns between you spotting a monster and the fight actually starting (e.g. because you're waiting for the now-out-of-sight monster to walk to a certain position), during which you have nothing to do. This is when you cast Phase Shift and Haste (as well as other things like Regen or DChannel if applicable).

How applicable that ideal is depends on exactly what kind of character you are - a blaster mage who is still doing Vaults who has those spells? A melee who is doing extended with those spells? A summoner camping behind 7000 minions?

Currently I'm playing as DrCj, mainly spamming fireball & bolt of fire. Is there a room for casting phase shift, haste and such, unless I face really tough enemy? Casting those two already takes like 11 mp (I think). I haven't trained my evocation yet so mp management is a issue here as well.

[blackcustard]

I always keep swiftness up if I have it. The traps are relevant I guess, but being fast all the time is worth it. Same with RMsl, shroud, phase shift, Ozocubu's armour, stoneskin, etc. DMsl I find is too expensive for that, so I just back up and cast it when I see ranged things. Haste you cast when you think things are getting dangerous.

[Sandman25]

DMsl I find is too expensive for that, so I just back up and cast it when I see ranged things.

Of course it requires to have level 6 spells hungerless to be able to have Dmsl always on. When you have so much spellcasting to have it hungerless, you have many MPs and good spell power so natural MP regeneration restores all (or almost all) MPs. If it doesn't and you feel safe, you can take a break and wait until "mana points are restored". I made the message "mana points are restored" stop autotravel too so I refresh DMsl (even if it is still on) in this case also.
The only problem I had was when I had Necromutation AND DMsl always on, MPs cannot be restored in this case unless you have some channeling (and you usually have).

[Utis]

I have been wondering: if having some of these always on is so beneficial, wouldn't it be possible to create a scripting macro that automatically recasts them whenever mana is fully restored? I haven't yet looked into Lua scripting, myself.

But then: is there really a point to it? So far, I'm finding that I need those buffs only situationally. I feel that most of the time it's pretty obvious from the tactical situation whether I'm going to take a little bit of punishment or whether I can two-shot an isolated enemy. If it's a caster, then I only need deflect missiles. If it's a melee type (and my character is a melee hybrid) then it seems still worthwhile to spend three turns to cast shroud, phase shift and stoneskin, even if he is already toe-to-toe. If those three turns bring me into danger, I shouldn't take that on that foe, anyways. Also, on my last few light armour characters I always had a little bit of stealth ("quite stealthy") so I had ample time to cherry pick and prepare encounters.

Repel missiles is the only one where I used to be tempted to keep it on constantly. But currently even with this one, casting it is just the first thing I do once a yaktaur captain/centaur warrior enters LoS. So, right now, the only "buff" I'm recasting all the time is Summon Ice Beast.

[Sandman25]

I have been wondering: if having some of these always on is so beneficial, wouldn't it be possible to create a scripting macro that automatically recasts them whenever mana is fully restored? I haven't yet looked into Lua scripting, myself.

But then: is there really a point to it? So far, I'm finding that I need those buffs only situationally. I feel that most of the time it's pretty obvious from the tactical situation whether I'm going to take a little bit of punishment or whether I can two-shot an isolated enemy. If it's a caster, then I only need deflect missiles. If it's a melee type (and my character is a melee hybrid) then it seems still worthwhile to spend three turns to cast shroud, phase shift and stoneskin, even if he is already toe-to-toe. If those three turns bring me into danger, I shouldn't take that on that foe, anyways. Also, on my last few light armour characters I always had a little bit of stealth ("quite stealthy") so I had ample time to cherry pick and prepare encounters.

Repel missiles is the only one where I used to be tempted to keep it on constantly. But currently even with this one, casting it is just the first thing I do once a yaktaur captain/centaur warrior enters LoS. So, right now, the only "buff" I'm recasting all the time is Summon Ice Beast.

The macro should check there are no monsters around: automatic DMsl when fighting a melee monster or encountering a mutating monster can be very bad.
Haste is considered by many as the most powerful spell, yet it takes at least 3 actions to be useful ((haste +2 actions)*0.66=2), if we add DMsl as second spell after Haste, then there should be at least 5 actions (comparing with character who always has DMsl on): Haste + DMsl + 4 actions takes the same time as 4 actions without Haste but with automatic DMsl on.

DMsl can save life/items, it is not rare when a pack of footaurs shoots at me before I have a chance to react. For a stealthy character the spell is less useful of course.

[Utis]

Haste is considered by many as the most powerful spell, yet it takes at least 3 actions to be useful ((haste +2 actions)*0.66=2), if we add DMsl as second spell after Haste, then there should be at least 5 actions (comparing with character who always has DMsl on): Haste + DMsl + 4 actions takes the same time as 4 actions without Haste but with automatic DMsl on.

I have little experience with melee centered characters (i. e. maxed out melee, casting only a few buffs). But doesn't melee typically take significantly more than 4 actions, at least for any threat that is worth casting Haste?

I think Haste is special, since it serves multiple purposes at the same time: a) a 1.5 force multiplier for moar damage, b) a way to unload my damage in a shorter time, and c) a means of retreat. I think, you're arguing here with (b). I think, that would be relevant with regard to, for instance, dangerous uniques that I want to turn into a corpse really, really fast. But my intuition is that with such situations, I want to retreat & prepare, anyways, so that I go into the encounter already buffed-up. When I need Haste primarily as a force multiplier, that means I'm prepared to stand in the encounter for a couple of turns and I already have enough staying power (at least with Dmsg/Rmsl or other buffs) that one or two additional actions don't make much difference -- otherwise I'd use Haste to get the hell out of there.

Well, or so I believe.

[crate]

i very rarely even use rmsl/dmsl against *taurs any more, since a turn I spend casting that is a turn I don't get to move, and moving is that good.

I use rmsl mainly against things with spells I want to not get hit by.

[Utis]

I guess what I'm trying to say is: when I can't afford to spend two or three actions on casting buffs in a given situation, I should try to get out of that situation, anyways, rather than casting buffs.

[Sandman25]

Haste is considered by many as the most powerful spell, yet it takes at least 3 actions to be useful ((haste +2 actions)*0.66=2), if we add DMsl as second spell after Haste, then there should be at least 5 actions (comparing with character who always has DMsl on): Haste + DMsl + 4 actions takes the same time as 4 actions without Haste but with automatic DMsl on.

I have little experience with melee centered characters (i. e. maxed out melee, casting only a few buffs). But doesn't melee typically take significantly more than 4 actions, at least for any threat that is worth casting Haste?

I think Haste is special, since it serves multiple purposes at the same time: a) a 1.5 force multiplier for moar damage, b) a way to unload my damage in a shorter time, and c) a means of retreat. I think, you're arguing here with (b). I think, that would be relevant with regard to, for instance, dangerous uniques that I want to turn into a corpse really, really fast. But my intuition is that with such situations, I want to retreat & prepare, anyways, so that I go into the encounter already buffed-up. When I need Haste primarily as a force multiplier, that means I'm prepared to stand in the encounter for a couple of turns and I already have enough staying power (at least with Dmsg/Rmsl or other buffs) that one or two additional actions don't make much difference -- otherwise I'd use Haste to get the hell out of there.

Well, or so I believe.

Yes, there are monsters who are typically killed in 1-2 rounds late game (Cyclops, Neqoxecs, Hellions to name a few) so casting Haste is bad tactics against them because they have more rounds to hurt you.
1-2 extra attacks can be very important if it can have strategic consequences (mutation/item destruction/corrosion)

[Sandman25]

I guess what I'm trying to say is: when I can't afford to spend two or three actions on casting buffs in a given situation, I should try to get out of that situation, anyways, rather than casting buffs.

Still it is optimal play to have a buff always on if you can afford it.

[Psieye]

I guess what I'm trying to say is: when I can't afford to spend two or three actions on casting buffs in a given situation, I should try to get out of that situation, anyways, rather than casting buffs.

Unless that buff is DDoor or perhaps Haste, you don't cast buffs in a situation where you can't afford to spend 2~3 turns not actively solving the situation. Get out of that situation, then buff up if it's still relevant.

[Utis]

I guess what I'm trying to say is: when I can't afford to spend two or three actions on casting buffs in a given situation, I should try to get out of that situation, anyways, rather than casting buffs.

Unless that buff is DDoor or perhaps Haste, you don't cast buffs in a situation where you can't afford to spend 2~3 turns not actively solving the situation. Get out of that situation, then buff up if it's still relevant.

Hm. Not sure whether there's a misunderstanding here (I wrote in response to Sandman25's scenario with Haste and DMsl) or whether I am in fact playing suboptimally ... I currently have the following scenario: my stabber melees everything he can't stab with a quickblade. This takes quite a number of actions. He has high EV, Stoneskin, Shroud and Phase Shift, though. With all buffs (or even just Stoneskin and Shroud) active, I can take out a Stone Giant without taking much damage. Without them, it becomes actually quite dangerous, because the fight takes so long and he would whittle me down. However, even re-casting buffs during battle -- because they tend to run out before the giant is down -- doesn't seem to pose a problem.

So that's what I meant: either I have the time to cast my buffs within the situation (for instance in the scenario I just described or when I'm standing still while a melee foe is approaching me). Or I don't have that time, in which case, like you say, I get out of the situation, maybe just by leaving LoS, cast the buffs, then get in again.

[Itholyth]

Do remember that Haste speeds up -all- actions so it tends to pay off to cast it first and then the rest of the spells. Just keep failure rates in mind, don't wanna accumulate magic contamination by miscasts + haste contamination.

I mostly play characters with super-high EV so I can afford to cast a buff or a few even with a large guy beside me, but not if there are several dangers around. Up to you to measure the weight of your own risks and potential benefits.

Spells may tilt the battle in your favour, so choose wisely to avoid having to rely on escape plans/consumables. That being said playing a fast race or buffed with movement speed (spriggan/centaur/felid, swiftness/haste) helps you keep distance either way.

[hxy]

my stabber melees everything he can't stab with a quickblade. This takes quite a number of actions.

You should find an alternative way to kill things aside from short blades, cos eventually you're going to run into high AC enemies that you cannot scratch with your weapon.
Another alternative is to run away from it, or avoid waking it up..

[Sandman25]

I often cast Phase Shift before Haste if I cannot (or don't want to) retreat.

[Utis]

my stabber melees everything he can't stab with a quickblade. This takes quite a number of actions.

You should find an alternative way to kill things aside from short blades, cos eventually you're going to run into high AC enemies that you cannot scratch with your weapon.
Another alternative is to run away from it, or avoid waking it up..

I have: Iron Shot. Also, if I happen to find a ring of slaying I know that I can clean Zot just fine with a quickblade. Are we miscommunicating here? I thought we were discussing when to use buff spells.

[hxy]

All's good then.. it just sounded a little worrying to hear you spending that amount of turns poking things with a quickblade

[Psieye]

I guess what I'm trying to say is: when I can't afford to spend two or three actions on casting buffs in a given situation, I should try to get out of that situation, anyways, rather than casting buffs.

Unless that buff is DDoor or perhaps Haste, you don't cast buffs in a situation where you can't afford to spend 2~3 turns not actively solving the situation. Get out of that situation, then buff up if it's still relevant.

So that's what I meant: either I have the time to cast my buffs within the situation (for instance in the scenario I just described or when I'm standing still while a melee foe is approaching me).

These are situations where you CAN afford that time, yes.

Judging when you do and don't have that time is something that comes with experience.