Chei fighter?

[Jenx]

Since I started the one about chei spellcasters, might as well start this one too. I've been thinking about a MDFi of Chei, but I'm not sure if making a melee fighter even slower is a good idea. Has anyone tried such a combination and how did it work out?

[Jenx]

Sorry to double post, but I just decided to switch to latest trunk build (I was using a few versions older) and hot damn, my MDFi can start with a Falchion? Awesome!

[Zicher]

If you want to try a MDFi of Chei, you'll need to pick off enemies from a distance - get some attack wands, or even better, a crossbow ASAP.
(Or, instead, try a SETm of Chei, that seems to be a really well-working combo.)

[Jenx]

I've played transmuters of Chei, that's not what I'm asking about here. Melee or not, Transmuters are still casters and they have access to Evaporate and Sticks to Snakes and all kinds of other stuff. I'm talking pure melee here. Hm I guess I'll just stick with Okawaru. Been wanting to try out his new abilities in battle anyway.

[joellercoaster]

I'm intrigued now, though.

Chei takes away berserk as a useful option for the cornered fighter... could be really interesting.

[DemonOfWrath]

Pure melee (by that do you mean no spellcasting? Are crossbows ect still ok?)??? I can't imagine that working without getting a reusable method of blinking/teleporting. Losing beserk, speed potions and Haste wands hurts badly, and you can't run off when things get bad, I doubt the extra stats will make up for it enough. I'd have a feeling you'd get caught by a Hill Giant, Hydra or some Death Yaks or something, you'll most likely end up getting caught (and killed) by something with no consumables left before you finish Lair.

[joellercoaster]

Right. And I never get Step From Time working by that point, which is the thing that would keep you from getting fatally mobbed by Death Yaks or elephants.

Bend Time would be a help for this if you could use it at range... as it is though, it's only ever been a victory dance for me.

[Jenx]

Well, now when I think about it, a Warper would probably work a bit better. You can still concentrate on smacking stuff in melee, but you have a reliable (sort of) way of getting into trouble.

Also, I'm actually more interested in Chei for his abilities, in this case, not the stat boost. Although that is nice too.

[Strongpoint]

I think that not branching into magic with that bonus to int is very unwise, even for some troll, simple blink can save your life a lot of times...

[Zicher]

... but you have a reliable (sort of) way of getting into trouble.

A miswriting, or the best catching of Crawl's internal workings ever?

[Jenx]

I'll let you decide on that

[Ashery]

Chei works surprisingly well for a MDFi.

Their main weakness is dealing with summoners as you can't use slouch more than a couple times in a row without experiencing a massive piety dip. But a pack of yaktaurs can be dealt with simply by charging them, well, if an advancing Chei worshiper can be said to be "charging." Just be aware that your potions and scrolls will get completely fucked over repeatedly once you get to the mid-game, so hope you either get some form of conservation or, at the very least, a wand of teleport.

Admittedly, my knowledge might be a bit biased, as I had a substantial amount of luck on my current attempt and found some +2 crystal armor on D:7. I've taken a break from'em for a bit, though, as the summons in Elf:5 might've screwed'em over (Cacodemons gave me two wonderful melee mutations, -10% hp and ill-fitting armor).

Death yaks were surprisingly easy so long as I took'em one at a time. The only downside was that I had to use slouch to land the killing blow, so my piety was rather low by the time I finished Lair:8.

[TheDark]

I've gotta say, the perfect equipment for a Chei worshipper would probably be the Maxwell's armor, and the Obsidian Axe. Whether these would be the perfectly good items or the perfectly wrong items are up to you.

[tormodpwns]

Is a crystal plate mail on D:7 really that great? It should be so heavy that it will absolutely crush your EV while not providing too much in the way of AC.

Edit: And how do you fight Death Yaks one by one? They tend to swarm you quickly.

[Ashery]

The crystal plate certainly seemed like it worked well, but I've still fairly inexperienced, so I can't say for certain.

As for the death yaks, I simply managed to crawl my way into a small hallway or backed into a convenient spot along the wall. Can't say for certain how lucky I was with the placement, as that's the first chei fighter that I've cleared that region with.

[KoboldLord]

Is a crystal plate mail on D:7 really that great? It should be so heavy that it will absolutely crush your EV while not providing too much in the way of AC.

If you update to the most recent version of Trunk, heavy armor is largely fixed. You don't get the maximum possible benefit of the super-armors without high armor skill, but you do get the entire listed benefit. If you are not planning to cast, you should switch to the crystal plate mail immediately and keep it on.

Robes of resistance are no longer clearly better than crystal plate mail or golden dragon armor even for Trog-followers, as they were for the last two stable versions.

[OneTrueFelid]

A pure fighter with Chei is a pretty lackluster idea. With a fighter, you generally want to live in corridors and avoid being surrounded - autoexploring in places like the Vaults or Lair, which are wide open with corridors nearby to dive into leaves you open for an annoying barrage of attacks from behind before you reach the relatively safe haven of the chokepoint. Slouch is a great tool (as is Bend Time, though obviously less so than Slouch), but not enough to make the combination desirable. Step from Time has a high Invocations requirement (higher than Oldkowaru's Haste!) and limited usage. As an MD of Chei, casting in heavy armour is viable and amusing enough to take a look at. Peek through the logs of Noom, who keeps trying to do the extended endgame with them. The large intelligence and strength bonus mitigate the need for strength to support heavy armour and the need for intelligence to increase spell power and success while reducing hunger cost.

In short: Ehhhhh. Chei.

[Ashery]

The only issue I had in vaults is that yaktaurs would end up destroying many of my potions and scrolls. Your typical fighter may not want to get surrounded, but when you combine absurd stats (50str, 35AC, 38SH at level 18 using a normal sized shield) with Bend Time, being surrounded isn't a big deal. Also, the massive piety cost for Slouch really limits how frequently it can be used. More than a couple casts in a fight and you may find yourself unable to use Step from Time to escape the surviving summoned creatures.

[joellercoaster]

Your typical fighter may not want to get surrounded, but when you combine absurd stats (50str, 35AC, 38SH at level 18 using a normal sized shield) with Bend Time, being surrounded isn't a big deal.

This. Actually being surrounded is good because then people stop shooting at you quite so much

I find the progression of Chei's two main abilities really nice - Slouch is cool when you get it and useful for a fair while, then it sort of degrades in usefulness just around the time that Step From Time becomes a) reliable and b) important.

I still think Bend Time could do with changing somehow though - the fact that it's both resistible and reduces piety gain from beating its targets makes it neither a good panic button nor a stock combat tool, and being range 1 just ices that particular cake. Maybe we could just rename it 'The Slow Graceful Victory Waltz of Cheibriados'.

Not that I'm complaining about Chei in general - I still think He's the coolest God

[OneTrueFelid]

The point is that a Chei fighter isn't utilizing the largest advantage that Chei is giving it - high amounts of Intelligence and Strength at the same time. Being surrounded is never a good idea, and avoiding that with Chei is more difficult. Again, hybridizing with Chei is a far better idea given his bonuses.

[Jenx]

Hmm well ok, when thinking it over I suspect some spells might fit the character. However in that case I don't think a dwarf is a good choice, even with high INT their spellcasting skills suck. And I just find elves way too squishy to be fighters...hm...Human, perhaps?

[OneTrueFelid]

Contrary to that belief, Mountain Dwarfs have above average Earth Magic aptitude and are perfectly capable casters with Chei. Iron Shot ahoy! D:

[Jenx]

Yeah but shouldn't I then just start as Earth Elementalist, pick up as much gear as I can and then train as fighter, so I'll know I have the book guaranteed by the time I can actually cast spells in armor?

[OneTrueFelid]

I would start as MDEE and play as a caster for a bit and slowly ease myself into casting in Armour. I helps to remember that some armour (like Swamp Dragon Armour!) are both lightweight and afford ample protection.

[Ashery]

You could also go for Chei with races that are incapable of wearing the better armor. Draconians, for instance.

[tormodpwns]

The large intelligence and strength bonus mitigate the need for strength to support heavy armour and the need for intelligence to increase spell power and success while reducing hunger cost.

Well in that case what are you going to put your attribute points in? I would still recommend INT because your STR bonus maxes out at 3x the EV penalty of armour (24 STR for crystal plate, 27 for GDA). DEX is useless for Fighters.

I find the progression of Chei's two main abilities really nice - Slouch is cool when you get it and useful for a fair while, then it sort of degrades in usefulness just around the time that Step From Time becomes a) reliable and b) important.

I still think Bend Time could do with changing somehow though - the fact that it's both resistible and reduces piety gain from beating its targets makes it neither a good panic button nor a stock combat tool, and being range 1 just ices that particular cake.

Actually, Slouch remains decently powerful throughout the game. It clears the entire Vaults:8 welcome party in 3-4 casts, and it absolutely destroys Executioners (and I would assume Orbs of Fire as well, but I've never tried it firsthand). Bend Time actually becomes extremely powerful (read: unresistable) at around the level Step From Time becomes reliable. Plus, range 1 doesn't matter since we're talking about melee fighters.

You could also go for Chei with races that are incapable of wearing the better armor. Draconians, for instance.

If I remember correctly, Draconians have trouble wearing boots, gloves, and helmets (but not caps or wizard hats, but they're rare). That means you won't get much stat bonus or resistance. So it's actually a bad idea, just like Trolls and Ogres of Chei.

[Ashery]

You're right about Dracs.

That's what I get for going off of memory when I've only played the race a couple of times early on in my DCSS, for lack of a better word, career.

[lucy_ferre]

I find the progression of Chei's two main abilities really nice - Slouch is cool when you get it and useful for a fair while, then it sort of degrades in usefulness just around the time that Step From Time becomes a) reliable and b) important.

I still think Bend Time could do with changing somehow though - the fact that it's both resistible and reduces piety gain from beating its targets makes it neither a good panic button nor a stock combat tool, and being range 1 just ices that particular cake.

Actually, Slouch remains decently powerful throughout the game. It clears the entire Vaults:8 welcome party in 3-4 casts, and it absolutely destroys Executioners (and I would assume Orbs of Fire as well, but I've never tried it firsthand). Bend Time actually becomes extremely powerful (read: unresistable) at around the level Step From Time becomes reliable. Plus, range 1 doesn't matter since we're talking about melee fighters.

Slouch is incredibly powerful. It kills orbs of fire and electric golems very quickly. I mostly used Bend Time for victory dancing, but I found it useful against a few uniques.

[Curio]

playing pure Orc fighter of Chei right now.
High armour skill + shield.
Clearing bottom levels of Lair.
The only problem I have right now is a diminished AC because of "unfitting body" mutation