Advice on DsCj?

[jimicrackcorn]

I just picked up the game [code][/code]a couple days ago, this is my first roguelike so I'm still pretty new but this is my favorite class. I can't seem to make it past level eight though.

I really can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. I'll get a run where it seems like everythings good and I can kill most things pretty easily and then I'll walk through a door with one guy in it and all of a sudden be surrounded by orcs. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do in that situation. It seems like if I don't have scrolls of teleport on hand at all times I'm pretty much going to get screwed eventually.

Also, is throw frost worth getting? I usually stick to magic dart and the cloud(I've never been able to get any higher level magic than this) I'm not sure how to read the damage yet so I'm not sure if its worth t.

,From what I can see it goes like this

magic dart: ####
throw frost: ##......

if i had to guess id say the #s are the damage, but what are the dots? some spells have them and some dont. i dont understand. There has to be a reason throw frost costs more mana i would assume.

[cerebovssquire]

Magic Dart and Mephitic Cloud are enought to get you to Lightning Bolt. Throw Frost isn't necessary.
Now the #s aren't actually damage. They represent spellpower. The dots are simply "you haven't reached this level of spellpower yet", so #... would be a less powerful Magic Dart than ##.. which in turn is less powerful than ####. At equal spellpower, Throw Frost will do more damage than Magic Dart. The power is only a guideline for the spell itself, it can't be used to compare spells.
In regards to being surrounded: Mephitic Cloud makes a ton of noise, this is probably the reason why this is happening. Try to use it less and/or run away soon after using it.

[Sandman25]

Don't go forward to monsters, immediately retreat after spotting one and wait for it to catch with you. This allows to avoid fighting groups of monsters, you take them one on one instead

[Sandman25]

I suggest to play a pure fighter like MiBe first, it is very important to learn tactics (how to deal with groups of monsters, how to retreat behind a corner for fighting ranged monsters like Centaurs/Orc Priests, how to run away when you have no sure way to kill a monster). Conjurers are tricky because they give you illusion that you can kill every monster you encounter but it is not true.

[Psieye]

Are you playing v0.11? The Cj start was changed a lot for v0.12. Either way, I assume you like Ds as a concept as it's not the uh... 'most optimised' for a beginner learning the nuke-mage style.

Anyway, the first lesson in roguelikes is that there is no guarantee you are meant to win every encounter on first try. You are meant to run away from some things. Which things depends on exact circumstances, but there will always be some things you have to run from at first. There is less running away to do later on but it never completely disappears. Namely:

I'll walk through a door with one guy in it and all of a sudden be surrounded by orcs

You don't walk through that door. As you die more, you'll get a feel for "these guys always show up in groups, if I see one of them, there's probably many nearby that I can't see".

[Magipi]

I suggest to play a pure fighter like MiBe first (...)
Conjurers are tricky because they give you illusion that you can kill every monster you encounter but it is not true.

This is weird, I think exactly the opposite is true. A berserker is very strong in the early game, so the illusion "I can kill every monster" is more apt to come with a berserker. An early conjurer has nothing more than Magic Darts, so the feeling of omnipotence comes much later.

(I am talking about 0.11)

[Psieye]

You very very quickly hit a wall with a Be if you stick with that attitude and berserk on everything you see. At the very least you learn the lesson of "I should wait until I'm in a better position before I start the berserk".

Magic Dart gets you very far once you pair it with Meph. It's what creates the illusion of "I can beat anything".

[Sandman25]

I suggest to play a pure fighter like MiBe first (...)
Conjurers are tricky because they give you illusion that you can kill every monster you encounter but it is not true.

This is weird, I think exactly the opposite is true. A berserker is very strong in the early game, so the illusion "I can kill every monster" is more apt to come with a berserker. An early conjurer has nothing more than Magic Darts, so the feeling of omnipotence comes much later.

(I am talking about 0.11)

MiBe is strong for experienced players who know how to fight packs/ranged monsters.

[dassem]

Ok, if you're dying at that point, it seems to me like you need to manage your skills better.
Look for other threads on that (or listen to the posters with blue names). A quick suggestion is to look at the spells you want and train the skills you need for those. Maybe a bit of dodging and stealth, but not much else. Although the extra HP from fighting looks good (and so on), remember that you are trading that for less damage from your main killing method. Of course, for a more hybrid style the trade off point is different. (And you should strongly consider that for DS, especially if you find a good early-game weapon, such as a spear of venom or whip of electrocution or pain, or somesuch. I also adapt a bit depending on which mutations I get and try to play into the strengths of the character.)

As cerebovssquire explains, different spells can do very different damages. Crawl is setup so you cannot just make magic dart ultra powerful. You need to move on and up!

For DsCj, I usually worship Vehumet. With that and and looking at what books I find, I then start pumping an elemental skill. Ice is fun as throw frost can kill weak things efficiently later and freezing cloud will wipe out almost everything until Zot (think about how to trap things in those clouds or force anything chasing you to have to walk through them all). With the right skills, that will lead to Ice Storm, which will then see you through a 15-runer almost on its own.

[jimicrackcorn]

ok guys, heres what i have so far. this is the farthest ive been and im a little nervous to go down another level before i get some advice. Are my skills ok? Im not sure if im doing this right but its worked ok so far. i got really lucky with the demonic minions mutation. this is the first time ive gotten lightning bolt and its working awesomely for groups.

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.11.2 (tiles) character file.

Tidimir the Conjurer (Demonspawn Conjurer)         Turns: 13346, Time: 01:03:46

HP  63/63        AC  6     Str  8      XL: 10   Next: 90%
MP  29/34        EV 16     Int 20      God:
Gold 244         SH  0     Dex 14      Spells:  3 memorised, 17 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : .   H - +0 elf short sword
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   C - +1 elf robe
Life Prot.: + . .   Conserve   : .   (no shield)
Res.Poison: .       Res.Corr.  : .   (helmet restricted)
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   x - +0 orc cloak
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   r - +1 pair of dwarf gauntlets
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : +   (no boots)
Res.Rott. : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .   v - amulet of stasis
Saprovore : . . .   Levitation : .   p - ring of magical power
                    Ctrl.Flight: .   k - ring of life protection

@: nauseated, somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, fairly stealthy
A: horns 2, repel missiles, demonic guardian 1, EV +4
a: no special abilities


You are on level 10 of the Dungeon.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 10 of its levels.

You have collected 444 gold pieces.
You have spent 220 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 B - an uncursed dagger (quivered)
 H - a +0,+0 elven short sword (weapon)
Armour
 r - a +1 pair of dwarven gauntlets (worn)
 x - a +0 orcish cloak (worn)
 C - a +1 elven robe (worn)
Magical devices
 l - a wand of enslavement (11)
 u - a gold wand
Comestibles
 a - 10 grapes
 b - 5 bread rations
 h - 3 meat rations
 j - 3 chokos
 s - 2 pears
 t - 28 strawberries
 E - 3 chunks of orc flesh
 F - an apple
Scrolls
 e - a scroll of enchant armour
 f - 5 scrolls of remove curse
 q - a scroll of enchant weapon I
 y - a scroll of enchant weapon II
Jewellery
 k - a ring of life protection (left hand)
 p - a ring of magical power (right hand)
 v - an amulet of stasis (around neck)
 z - an uncursed ring of teleport control
Potions
 d - a potion of berserk rage
 g - a potion of might
 i - a potion of agility
 m - a potion of curing
 n - a fizzy pink potion
 o - a potion of levitation
 w - a potion of mutation
 A - a potion of heal wounds
Books
 c - a book of Conjurations   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Magic Dart                        Conjuration                  1
   Throw Frost                        Conjuration/Ice              2
   *Mephitic Cloud                    Conjuration/Poison/Air       3
   *Lightning Bolt                    Conjuration/Air              5
   Bolt of Cold                       Conjuration/Ice              6
   Freezing Cloud                     Conjuration/Ice/Air          6
Miscellaneous
 D - a bottled efreet


   Skills:
 - Level 1.7 Dodging
 - Level 1.7 Stealth
 + Level 8.5 Spellcasting
 + Level 11.8 Conjurations
 + Level 2.9 Air Magic
 - Level 10.0 Poison Magic


You have 17 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Magic Dart            Conj           #####        1%          1    None
b - Lightning Bolt        Conj/Air       ######....   12%         5    ####...
c - Mephitic Cloud        Conj/Pois/Air  ######...    1%          3    None


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (10/27)            Temple (0/1) D:6             Orc (0/4) D:8
   Lair (0/8) D:9         

Altars:
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Sif Muna
Trog
the Shining One

Shops:
D:7: =


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You have a pair of horns on your head.
You are surrounded by a strong repulsion field (EV +4, rMsl).
A weak demonic guardian rushes to your aid.

#####       #####
....####    #...#
.....^.######...######
..............@......#
.....................#
.....................#
.............#########
.............#
............##
............#
.#..........###
..............#
..............#
.............)#


There are no monsters in sight!

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Tidimir, the Demonspawn Conjurer, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 13/13 MP: 3/3
   268 | D:1      | Gained mutation: A weak demonic guardian rushes to your aid. [demonic ancestry]
   268 | D:1      | Gained mutation: You have a pair of small horns on your head. [demonic ancestry]
   268 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 7/19 MP: 1/4
   943 | D:1      | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations
  1064 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 24/24 MP: 5/5
  1069 | D:1      | Learned a level 3 spell: Mephitic Cloud
  1308 | D:2      | Reached skill level 1 in Poison Magic
  2119 | D:3      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 30/30 MP: 4/7
  3194 | D:3      | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
  3420 | D:4      | Gained mutation: You are surrounded by a mild repulsion field (EV +2). [demonic ancestry]
  3420 | D:4      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 11/35 MP: 1/8
  3627 | D:4      | Noticed an ogre
  3642 | D:4      | Reached skill level 6 in Conjurations
  3786 | D:4      | Killed an ogre
  4121 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4121 | D:5      | Noticed Sigmund
  4137 | D:5      | Killed Sigmund
  4137 | D:5      | Gained mutation: You are surrounded by a moderate repulsion field (EV +3). [demonic ancestry]
  4137 | D:5      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 22/41 MP: 0/9
  4285 | D:5      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
  4582 | D:5      | Noticed an ice beast
  4625 | D:5      | Killed an ice beast
  4625 | D:5      | Reached skill level 7 in Conjurations
  4672 | D:5      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 2 turns
  4740 | D:5      | Noticed Grinder
  4968 | D:5      | Killed Grinder
  4968 | D:5      | Gained mutation: You are surrounded by a strong repulsion field (EV +4, rMsl). [demonic ancestry]
  4968 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 46/46 MP: 1/10
  5575 | D:6      | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
  5589 | D:6      | Noticed Tidimir's ghost (experienced DsCj)
  5638 | D:6      | Killed Tidimir's ghost
  5638 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Poison Magic
  5638 | D:6      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 3 turns
  5894 | D:6      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  5898 | D:6      | Noticed Ijyb
  5915 | D:6      | Killed Ijyb
  6197 | D:7      | Reached skill level 8 in Conjurations
  6197 | D:7      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 52/52 MP: 4/14
  7106 | D:7      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
  7367 | D:7      | Found Moix's Jewellery Shoppe.
  7391 | D:7      | Bought an uncursed ring of magical power for 220 gold pieces
  7882 | D:8      | Noticed Duvessa
  8253 | D:8      | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
  8305 | D:8      | Gained mutation: You have a pair of horns on your head. [demonic ancestry]
  8305 | D:8      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 57/57 MP: 19/19
  8447 | D:8      | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
  8470 | D:8      | Noticed Dowan
  8499 | D:8      | Killed Dowan
  8508 | D:8      | Killed Duvessa
  8602 | D:8      | Reached skill level 11 in Conjurations
  8602 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 47/63 MP: 24/24
  9588 | D:8      | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
 10702 | D:9      | Reached skill level 10 in Poison Magic
 10951 | D:9      | Learned a level 5 spell: Lightning Bolt
 11010 | D:9      | Reached skill level 1 in Air Magic
 11074 | D:9      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 11793 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon


is everything ok for me to keep moving?

[rchandra]

By far your biggest mistake is not taking a god. Do that right away. Makhleb or Vehumet would be the most straightforward choices, but really any god you're allowed to take other than Xom would be good. Okawaru with demonic guardian has some significant drawbacks, so I'd avoid him too.

I would go to Lair either now or after doing 1 more floor of the dungeon. Leave all your scrolls of enchant weapon on the floor until you have a better weapon for them, use the enchant armour on your cloak or gauntlets.

You've made one mistake in training skills - poison is strictly worse than air for your spells so you should have lots of air and a little poison instead. Personally with the 0.11 Conjurer book I'd take Throw frost earlier and work on ice, because bolt of cold and freezing cloud are both very very good. At this point probably don't get ice until you have freezing cloud.

Have you been trying out runed/glowing equipment? I'm surprised you still have a plain weapon. A protection or electrocution weapon would be nice.

[jimicrackcorn]

By far your biggest mistake is not taking a god. Do that right away. Makhleb or Vehumet would be the most straightforward choices, but really any god you're allowed to take other than Xom would be good. Okawaru with demonic guardian has some significant drawbacks, so I'd avoid him too.

I would go to Lair either now or after doing 1 more floor of the dungeon. Leave all your scrolls of enchant weapon on the floor until you have a better weapon for them, use the enchant armour on your cloak or gauntlets.

You've made one mistake in training skills - poison is strictly worse than air for your spells so you should have lots of air and a little poison instead. Personally with the 0.11 Conjurer book I'd take Throw frost earlier and work on ice, because bolt of cold and freezing cloud are both very very good. At this point probably don't get ice until you have freezing cloud.

Have you been trying out runed/glowing equipment? I'm surprised you still have a plain weapon. A protection or electrocution weapon would be nice.

ok thanks. im working on air right now and have poison off, so i guess ill keep it that way for awhile. im still looking for vehumet but i cant find him anywhere. Ive only ever found him in one game. i have big picking up the blue stuff but im not sure which ones are good.

[rchandra]

You didn't enter the temple on floor 6, most normal gods will have altars there. Those that don't will always have altars between floors 1 and 9.

In some games your desired altar will be inaccessible, often it's good to take an alternate sooner instead since having a god sooner helps you survive.

[jimicrackcorn]

You didn't enter the temple on floor 6, most normal gods will have altars there. Those that don't will always have altars between floors 1 and 9.

In some games your desired altar will be inaccessible, often it's good to take an alternate sooner instead since having a god sooner helps you survive.

Theres a temple?? how do i get in it?

[jimicrackcorn]

You didn't enter the temple on floor 6, most normal gods will have altars there. Those that don't will always have altars between floors 1 and 9.

In some games your desired altar will be inaccessible, often it's good to take an alternate sooner instead since having a god sooner helps you survive.

Theres a temple?? how do i get in it?

[dassem]

Try these keys: GT
Note that most levels will have several stairs down. Some will be different and often lead to different branches of the game.
The temple is also a good place to drop some items, although leaving them on the floor and using search is a better habit.

[jimicrackcorn]

well this guy died so i made a new one who was even better. i got vehumet and freezing cloud and was killing like everything pretty easily. then i get to an open floor, kill everything on it except one guy. attack him and all of a sudden i get surrounded by bees, orcs and spirits.. after i had just cleared the level. really? why does this game hate me? i did everything to make sure i was safe before attacking this guy and yet.. my best character so far. dead. i even used him to kill my MiHu who killed like 100s of my other guys. i cant wait to run into this freaking ghost :/ how depressing.

any advice on what i should use to kill this guy? he has magic dart, meph cloud, freezing cloud and lightning bolt and all blue and enchanted items except his cape which is enchanted +2 and his armor is an arte

[Sandman25]

I think you had to run away (teleport/blink/speed)

[jimicrackcorn]

I think you had to run away (teleport/blink/speed)

i teleported, right into the bees, then i blinked but the bees were too fast, then i tried my last potion hoping for something lucky and got... berserk, which pretty much killed any hope.

[Sandman25]

I think you had to run away (teleport/blink/speed)

i teleported, right into the bees, then i blinked but the bees were too fast, then i tried my last potion hoping for something lucky and got... berserk, which pretty much killed any hope.

You were unlucky. Sometimes crawl kills you even when you play right.

[Psieye]

well this guy died so i made a new one who was even better. i got vehumet and freezing cloud and was killing like everything pretty easily. then i get to an open floor, kill everything on it except one guy. attack him and all of a sudden i get surrounded by bees, orcs and spirits.. after i had just cleared the level. really? why does this game hate me? i did everything to make sure i was safe before attacking this guy and yet.. my best character so far. dead. i even used him to kill my MiHu who killed like 100s of my other guys. i cant wait to run into this freaking ghost :/ how depressing.

any advice on what i should use to kill this guy? he has magic dart, meph cloud, freezing cloud and lightning bolt and all blue and enchanted items except his cape which is enchanted +2 and his armor is an arte

Chances are, you used Lightning Bolt or Meph on this open floor. That's suicide. Are you familiar with noise?

Even if not, you were on an open floor as a squishy nuke mage with no summons to back you up. Don't bother staying there, head down further.

[jimicrackcorn]

Chances are, you used Lightning Bolt or Meph on this open floor. That's suicide. Are you familiar with noise?

Even if not, you were on an open floor as a squishy nuke mage with no summons to back you up. Don't bother staying there, head down further.

well thats true i did use meph to confuse the guy but i swear the floor was empty. i made sure to save this guy for last and then out of nowhere there was a ton more guys. huuuh.

[Sandman25]

Do you use autoexplore (key 'o')? You can set an exclusion ('X', then 'e' several times) around a dangerous monster and autoexplore the whole floor. Still monsters are generated all the time (see http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Monster_generation for details)

[Psieye]

Yep, floors don't stay empty. Technically, they can stay empty but only after a stretch of time so long only a Mummy will ever reasonably live through it (because they can't starve).