How should I build my skills?

[ArmoredRevenger]

So this is like my 30th death and the farthest I've ever gotten is D:8 >_>. I usually start off as a Human Fighter. How should I progress with my skills? I usual use Fighting, Long Blades, Shields and Armour related skills. I know that I should focus on my weapon skill first to reduce my Delay but how high should I do it before I go into another skill? I plan on pretty much using a long sword (If I ever find one) then get a Double Sword (If I ever find one)and get it blessed by the SHining One if I ever get that far. Also I noticed people seem to show how they died. How can I do that? Might be able to help me improve.

[Abominae]

Stop training Long Blades at 14. Get them to 16 if you ever find a Double Sword. If not, 14 is fine for Scimitars/Demon Blades. After that, you can worry about defenses and other crap.

[mrbobbyg]

If you want to play as a HuFi, then the first thing you should do is take off your shield, and level ONLY long blades until you have a good attack speed.

However, HuFi is not a particularly easy start. If you want to just get a feel for melee combat, perhaps you should try a HOFi...pick axe as your starting weapon and focus on it. Good gods to worship are Trog for berzerk and Brothers in Arms, Okawaru for Heroism (which you really can/should spam before every non trivial fight) and to a lesser extent Finesse, or Ash, who can be tricky with his curse mechanic but can really power up a low level character quickly.

[ArmoredRevenger]

I see. The main reason I play Humans is because I play for fun and roleplaying purposes instead of min-maxing everything. Though this usually ends up with me being sub-optimal but meh xD.

[Psieye]

Also I noticed people seem to show how they died. How can I do that? Might be able to help me improve.

Are you playing online (i.e. logging into a server) or offline?


Anyway, HuFi almost feels like a newbie trap. While it's not a weak start, it's definitely not the EASIEST melee start for a newbie who has a lot to learn even with the easiest start. MiBe is my standard suggestion for a newbie learning melee, heck I'd recommend MiBe period over other play styles when first learning crawl. HOBe and MfBe are also good alternatives. Just bear in mind that after you hit Lair as a Be, you shouldn't ever need to berserk again (get a bro be angry for you).

roleplaying

This is perfectly understandable but it's recommended you do it after you get to know the game.

[ArmoredRevenger]

I'm playing offline right now. Also for the stats Dexterity is better than Strength right? Like I should only have enough Strength to be able to wear the Armour I want (Which is Plate so I'll need 18 Strength for that).

[Psieye]

I'm playing offline right now. Also for the stats Dexterity is better than Strength right? Like I should only have enough Strength to be able to wear the Armour I want (Which is Plate so I'll need 18 Strength for that).

Correct, though usually Int is better than Dex for anyone who intends to cast spells later on. Once you regularly can reach Vaults I suggest putting points into Int instead of Dex on newer characters.

Anyway, go to morgue/ and you will see a (long) list of .txt files that contain details of how you died. Be sure to put the dump in code tags.

[mrbobbyg]

Don't necessarily think of plate as your endgame armour. It certainly can be, but there are great armours out there that require 27 STR. It would be a shame if your heavy armour fighter lost out on the Armour of the Dragon King or +14 Crystal Plate because you were picking DEX or INT (if not casting). Also, try to have a few extra points of STR over the minimum, it helps in case you get stat drained.

[ArmoredRevenger]

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.11.2 (tiles) character file.

2474 Gerard the Covered (level 9, -1/68 HPs)
             Began as a Human Fighter on Mar 19, 2013.
             Was a Follower of the Shining One.
             Slain by a killer bee (3 damage)
             ... on Level 8 of the Dungeon.
             The game lasted 00:34:13 (7784 turns).

Gerard the Covered (Human Fighter)                  Turns: 7784, Time: 00:34:13

HP  -1/68        AC 17     Str 17      XL: 9   Next: 67%
MP   8/8         EV  6     Int 13      God: the Shining One [*.....]
Gold 179         SH  0     Dex 16      Spells:  0 memorised,  8 levels left

Res.Fire  : + . .   See Invis. : +   D - +3 great sword (slice)
Res.Cold  : + . .   Warding    : .   v - +4 splint mail "Schutoygg" {rF+ rC+}
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .   (no shield)
Res.Poison: .       Res.Corr.  : .   n - +0 helmet
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   l - +0 cloak
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   (no gloves)
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   (no boots)
Res.Rott. : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .   (no amulet)
Saprovore : . . .   Levitation : .   j - ring of see invisible
                    Ctrl.Flight: .   f - +4 ring of dexterity

@: quite poisoned, slightly resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely
unstealthy
A: Str +1
a: Renounce Religion


You were on level 8 of the Dungeon.
You worshipped the Shining One.
the Shining One was most pleased with you.
You were not hungry.

You visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and saw 9 of its levels.

You collected 297 gold pieces.
You spent 138 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - a +0,+0 great sword
 p - a +0,+1 spear of dragon slaying
 D - a +3,+3 great sword of slicing (weapon)
Missiles
 m - 13 silver darts
 o - 44 arrows
 t - 7 javelins (quivered)
 x - 12 poisoned needles
Armour
 b - a +0 scale mail
 c - a +0 shield
 l - a +0 cloak (worn)
 n - a +0 helmet (worn)
 v - the +4 splint mail "Schutoygg" (worn) {rF+ rC+}
   (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It protects you from fire.
   It protects you from cold.
 y - a +0 plate armour
 A - a cursed +0 splint mail
Magical devices
 h - a wand of magic darts (6) {unknown}
Comestibles
 d - 3 bread rations
 u - 2 meat rations
 B - a choko
 C - a beef jerky
Scrolls
 i - 6 scrolls of remove curse
 k - a scroll of fear
 s - a scroll of curse jewellery {unknown}
Jewellery
 e - a +3 ring of dexterity
 f - a +4 ring of dexterity (left hand)
 j - a ring of see invisible (right hand)
 E - a cursed ring of hunger {unknown}
Potions
 q - a potion of brilliance
 r - 2 potions of restore abilities
 w - a potion of poison
Books
 g - a book of Flames   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Flame Tongue                       Conjuration/Fire             1
   Throw Flame                        Conjuration/Fire             2
   Conjure Flame                      Conjuration/Fire             3
   Inner Flame                        Hexes/Fire                   3
   Sticky Flame                       Conjuration/Fire             4
   Fireball                           Conjuration/Fire             5
 z - a book of Summonings   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Abjuration                         Summoning                    3
   Recall                             Summoning/Translocation      3
   Summon Elemental                   Summoning                    4
   Shadow Creatures                   Summoning                    5
   Summon Demon                       Summoning                    5
   Summon Ugly Thing                  Summoning                    6


   Skills:
 * Level 6.0 Fighting
   Level 1.3 Short Blades
 * Level 5.5 Long Blades
 - Level 2.6 Polearms
 + Level 0.3 Throwing
 * Level 7.0 Armour
 - Level 1.1 Dodging
   Level 6.0 Shields


You had 8 spell levels left.
You didn't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (8/27)             Temple (1/1) D:6         
   Orc: D:6-11        Lair: D:8-13     

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Okawaru
Sif Muna
Trog
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
the Shining One

Shops:
D:6: (

Annotations
D:4 Hector's ghost, average HuFi


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

Your muscles are strong (Str +1).


Message History

The killer bee buzzes angrily.
The killer bee stings you but does no damage.
Found a hardcover book.
The killer bee stings you but does no damage.
Found 6 gold pieces.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel sick.
The killer bee stings you but does no damage.
Found an escape hatch in the floor.
The killer bee stings you but does no damage.
The killer bee stings you but does no damage.
The killer bee stings you but does no damage.
A killer bee comes into view.
The killer bee buzzes angrily.
The killer bee stings you but does no damage.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel sick.
The killer bee stings you but does no damage.
The killer bee stings you.
You die...

          #.#
          #.###
          .....
          #...#
     ######...   ####
     #...##...###...#
     #...##.##......#
 .##.#...##.##k.....##.#.
.............k.k@k.......
 $##.#...##.########...##
  ......(...#          #
 .##...###..#
   #...  #..#
   ....  ..$.
    ... .....
        ##>..
          ...
           .
        ...z.


You could see 4 killer bees.

Vanquished Creatures
  The ghost of Gerard the Covered, an experienced HuFi (D:6)
  An orc warrior (D:6)
  A centaur (D:6)
  3 ogres
  A giant frog (D:7)
  A gnoll sergeant (D:8)
  A water moccasin skeleton (D:5)
  9 killer bees
  A killer bee zombie (D:5)
  4 crimson imps
  3 hounds
  A hound zombie (D:7)
  3 orc priests
  3 worker ants
  2 orc wizards (D:6)
  A hound skeleton (D:5)
  An iguana (D:6)
  A jelly (D:6)
  10 adders
  8 gnolls (D:5)
  A giant mite (D:6)
  An adder skeleton (D:6)
  7 worms
  A giant eyeball (D:3)
  3 giant geckos
  A gnoll skeleton (D:6)
  An ooze (D:3)
  8 orcs
  3 ball pythons
  4 giant cockroaches
  17 goblins
  19 hobgoblins
  A quokka (D:7)
  10 bats
  4 giant newts
  A jackal skeleton (D:5)
  16 kobolds
  An orc zombie (D:7)
  14 rats
  A rat skeleton (D:5)
  A rat zombie (D:6)
  A toadstool (D:5)
172 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  11 toadstools
11 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 183 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Gerard, the Human Fighter, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 18/18 MP: 0/0
   173 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 21/24 MP: 1/1
   800 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 27/30 MP: 2/2
  1557 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 36/36 MP: 3/3
  1561 | D:2      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
  1976 | D:3      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 3 turns
  1983 | D:3      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 4 turns
  1988 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Dodging
  2330 | D:3      | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
  2337 | D:3      | Became a worshipper of the Shining One
  2437 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Short Blades
  2437 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 26/42 MP: 4/4
  2553 | D:3      | Reached skill level 4 in Armour
  2784 | D:3      | Gained mutation: Your muscles are strong (Str +1). [potion of gain strength]
  2887 | D:3      | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
  3364 | D:4      | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
  3479 | D:4      | Got a polished splint mail
  3496 | D:4      | Identified the +4 splint mail "Schutoygg" (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)
  3709 | D:4      | Noticed Hector's ghost (average HuFi)
  3764 | D:4      | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
  3781 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4188 | D:5      | Noticed an ogre
  4198 | D:5      | Killed an ogre
  4198 | D:5      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 29/48 MP: 5/5
  4474 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 28/54 MP: 6/6
  4740 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
  4740 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Shields
  5649 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Polearms
  5761 | D:6      | Acquired the Shining One's first power
  5761 | D:6      | Reached skill level 6 in Shields
  5761 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 33/61 MP: 7/7
  5770 | D:6      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
  5919 | D:6      | Found Xaakuc's Antique Weapon Emporium.
  5937 | D:6      | Bought a glowing great sword for 138 gold pieces
  5981 | D:6      | Noticed Gerard's ghost (experienced HuFi)
  5991 | D:6      | Killed Gerard's ghost
  6083 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
  6116 | D:6      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 31/67 MP: 8/8
  6558 | D:6      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  6567 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  7291 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Long Blades
  7766 | D:8      | Reached skill level 7 in Armour
  7776 | D:8      | HP: 3/68 [poisoned by a killer bee]
  7776 | D:8      | The Shining One protects you from harm!
  7784 | D:8      | HP: 2/68 [poisoned by a killer bee]
  7784 | D:8      | Slain by a killer bee



This was the farthest I ever got. It's sad >_> xD.

[prozacelf]

If it's any consolation, killer bees are probably my most common cause of death. Unfortunately if you don't have a reliable escape means or a source of rPois, they can ruin your day in a hurry.

[ArmoredRevenger]

One last question. How long should I spend on each level? I usually just stay till I explore the whole level then move on. Not like new items will randomly spawn in it right?

[ohmi]

You can stick around a little while, and wait for new monsters (not items) to spawn but there are 2 bad things that will happen: 1) you will get hungry, and 2) after a few thousands turns OOD (out-of-depth) monsters will start showing up. Think Hydras or spiny frogs on d2. Those are usually bad news.

One useful tactic is to just dip down every down stair to see where it comes out, then go back up and try the next. Stairs are your friends.
Also, imho, TSO is not a great choice to start with. Trog and Oka are solid choices for fighters.

[Psieye]

Don't necessarily think of plate as your endgame armour. It certainly can be, but there are great armours out there that require 27 STR. It would be a shame if your heavy armour fighter lost out on the Armour of the Dragon King or +14 Crystal Plate because you were picking DEX or INT (if not casting). Also, try to have a few extra points of STR over the minimum, it helps in case you get stat drained.

GDA isn't all that awesome and characters that are likely to wear them will naturally be gaining Str as they level, separate to the stat choices. I don't think Str drain can happen if you aren't doing extended (except when you drink a degen potion or get malmutated). CPA is awesome, but PDA is even more awesome (and rarer).

One last question. How long should I spend on each level? I usually just stay till I explore the whole level then move on. Not like new items will randomly spawn in it right?

You have the right idea. Just keep moving ahead, new items won't randomly spawn. New monsters will after a long time and if you spend way too long (likely you'll starve first) just to farm these then ridiculously OP things start spawning to drive home the point: "you're not supposed to stay here that long".

[ArmoredRevenger]

You mean Pearl Dragon Armor isn't in the game anymore or something? The wiki says they are but ok.

[ArmoredRevenger]

True. Another question. Say I get Long Blade to 14. What should I train next? Fighting, Armour or Shields?

[dassem]

Ah, thanks for the explanation! - My guess was actually that this hinged on the definition of "great".
Anyway, although I cannot remember the last time I had a Mi or HO find one, my current DE just found a CPA on Orc:3...

[mrbobbyg]

I mean you won't find them until it doesn't matter. Expecting to get crystal plate armour is like expecting to get a +12 demon whip. Expecting to get GDA while it's still useful is like expecting to get a +12 hammer while it's still useful.

But what use are DEX and INT to a non spellcaster in heavy armour? Why not pick STR so in the unlikely event you get a great super heavy armour you can wear it?

[rchandra]

But what use are DEX and INT to a non spellcaster in heavy armour? Why not pick STR so in the unlikely event you get a great super heavy armour you can wear it?

it's quite possible to dodge or cast spells in plate.

[mrbobbyg]

I did say non spellcaster...it does take a good amount of exp to get spells going in plate. And sure, you can dodge, but aren't you better spent putting those points into Armour instead of Dodge once you've gone heavy?

[Abominae]

I did say non spellcaster...it does take a good amount of exp to get spells going in plate. And sure, you can dodge, but aren't you better spent putting those points into Armour instead of Dodge once you've gone heavy?

If you aren't casting spells, you're going to have more than enough EXP to max both Armour and Dodging. Obviously you max Armour first, but maxed Dodging + high Dex will give you significant evade in Plate. But really, you should cast spells no matter how heavy your armor is.

[mrbobbyg]

There are plenty of builds that don't involve spells...and sure, you can dodge some, but it doesn't have to be a priority. A 2 hander, Armour, and a range weapon will eat up a lot of EXP if they are your focus.

Thanks for the feedback on my ideas though! Always trying to get better at this game.

[Davion Fuxa]

True. Another question. Say I get Long Blade to 14. What should I train next? Fighting, Armour or Shields?

Depends on how the Random Number Generator treats you or how you plan to play. If you snag a really good Armour then you should train in Armour, if you want to use Shields then getting them to minimum delay of 15 should be a priority. Heck, if you find a Triple Sword or a Great Sword with a decent brand on it, you should keep training Long Blades and forgo Shields.

[ArmoredRevenger]

All right. Thanks.

[Psieye]

but it doesn't have to be a priority. A 2 hander, Armour, and a range weapon will eat up a lot of EXP if they are your focus.

Think longer-term. On a 3-rune game's EXP budget (this includes Crypt and Elf) it's perfectly reasonable to get:
- Melee weapon skill
- Fighting
- Armour
- Dodging
- Ranged weapon skill
- 8+ Traps
- ~10 Invo
- 14+ Charms

Provided you don't over-train everything to 27. Minmay makes the good point: rather than put in excess points into Str hoping for an extremely rare CPA/PDA early in the game, you're better off putting points into Int for an all-but-guaranteed access to a Haste spellbook later in the game which WILL be useful whenever you pick up the spell. Ok maybe Haste isn't as good an example for "worth spending lots of Int on" but other buff spells do want spell power (and less spell hunger is always good). Furthermore, Int drain is much more common than Str drain and it's sad for a melee dude to die because he never put points in Int.