Stash Locations?

[Trobe]

Hi all. I'm mid-game, (D19, V3). My stash in the lair is a loong trek up, and not yet ready for the vestibule of hell.
What are some other good stash locations?

[nicolae]

Hi all. I'm mid-game, (D19, V3). My stash in the lair is a loong trek up, and not yet ready for the vestibule of hell.
What are some other good stash locations?

I think most of the upper-level players would just recommend "the floor, wherever, find it with ctrl+f".

[Davion Fuxa]

Once past Temple and Lair, there really isn't any solid Stash Location where monsters can't reach your items. I suppose the Hall of Blades might be one instance for consideration - though you might want to clear it first to make sure no Uniques or dangerous Dancing Weapons are abound. Sometimes Deep in the Main Dungeon you might also be able to use certain Mini-Vaults for stashing items in - I remember dumping my items in back of a Mahkleb Altar Vault which you had to go over Lava to get to.

About the best you can really hope for later with items is just dumping them in a corner or end of a corridor (perhaps dug with the Dig Spell a few times) and hoping nothing wanders over it when your gone.

[zogre]

If you have stasis or teleport control, a teleport trap makes a really safe stash - but as nicolae says, the floor is fine most of the time unless you're with the slime god.

[Psieye]

After the earlygame, the main danger to a stash is humanoids coming over and picking your stuff up. Monsters don't "see and walk to" items they can use (or slimeify), they are only aware of items that are directly at their feet. Corners are unlikely places for monsters to path to. Thus, corners are good places to make stashes.

[Sar]

Put

  Code:

travel_delay = -1

in your rc file if you play online or init.txt for offline version. That'll make the game skip animating your character travelling to a stash/stairs/etc.

[diviton]

A ring of sustenance can make the trip back to your Lair Stash a lot easier. It still takes a while though.

It can make the trip faster if you use every stair case at least once, so that way the autoexplore will find the fastest route.

[Trobe]

After the earlygame, the main danger to a stash is humanoids coming over and picking your stuff up. Monsters don't "see and walk to" items they can use (or slimeify), they are only aware of items that are directly at their feet. Corners are unlikely places for monsters to path to. Thus, corners are good places to make stashes.

This is really useful - I didn't know that about monsters. But to clarify, do you mean that humanoids (orcs and beyond) *will* see them and alter path for them?

[Psieye]

After the earlygame, the main danger to a stash is humanoids coming over and picking your stuff up. Monsters don't "see and walk to" items they can use (or slimeify), they are only aware of items that are directly at their feet. Corners are unlikely places for monsters to path to. Thus, corners are good places to make stashes.

This is really useful - I didn't know that about monsters. But to clarify, do you mean that humanoids (orcs and beyond) *will* see them and alter path for them?

No, monsters (humanoid or not) will never alter their path because of an item. Disclaimer: this is based on observation and deduction, not source code reading.

[daggaz]

No, monsters (humanoid or not) will never alter their path because of an item. Disclaimer: this is based on observation and deduction, not source code reading.

Maybe slightly OT, but I always kind of wondered about that behavior, especially when you are in a room hacking down some animals and a few orcs in the back make their way right past several potions/scrolls and a wand to get in on the action. Intelligent action would cause them to pick up those items and use them either directly against the player, or passively such that the player is denied the resource (this latter course of action might be a bit too annoying).

The load rates of items in general could be upped to help balance the changes, as well as limiting the changes either by more sleep or only picking up items if the player is nearby.

I will also add that the behavior as observed by Psieye only holds if the natural path of the monster contains no items. Its a good idea to bee-line for a potion between you and an orc (or target that orc), because if they happen to stand on it, they can and will pick it up and use it if it is useful.


While stashes are useful, I do feel a twinge of scumminess when I go back and forth to the lair. What am I doing here? I cleared this branch hundreds or thousands of turns ago.

[Psieye]

I will also add that the behavior as observed by Psieye only holds if the natural path of the monster contains no items. Its a good idea to bee-line for a potion between you and an orc (or target that orc), because if they happen to stand on it, they can and will pick it up and use it if it is useful.

That's what I said: a monster will never ALTER their path for an item. If their existing path happens to land them on an item, they can interact with it. Having monsters actually path to items would probably fall under "this project will add a lot of computational work throughout the entire game once implemented after a big chunk of effort. The net result will be to annoy players with comparatively little gain in tactical richness."

While stashes are useful, I do feel a twinge of scumminess when I go back and forth to the lair. What am I doing here? I cleared this branch hundreds or thousands of turns ago.

A VpEn would answer: "I'm waiting for that SInv threat in Spider to fall asleep. 10,000 turns should be long enough to assume it got bored and fell asleep."

[BlackSheep]

Adding monster awareness of items would also open up the possibility of players baiting monsters with items.

[TehDruid]

All over the floor.

[Psieye]

Adding monster awareness of items would also open up the possibility of players baiting monsters with items.

Interesting mechanic, but I feel that would be better served as a spell (and it'd have to be different to that "project noise" spell that got removed for cheesing Tomb:3) rather than items. I don't want to feel like I'm playing Dwarf Fortress, convincing whole armies to die from bad positioning because I dropped "a sock".

[crate]

"Fellow slime" jellies will definitely seek out items in their LOS to eat. Jellies in other cases might seek out items nearby them if you're not in their LOS (obviously it is impossible to observe this in-game so I don't know) but if you are visible they will move straight toward you like other melee enemies.

Its a good idea to bee-line for a potion between you and an orc (or target that orc), because if they happen to stand on it, they can and will pick it up and use it if it is useful.

Or you could move to the side so it's no longer between you and the orc!

[Psieye]

Ah yes, Jiyva slimes will definitely hunt down items as that's what the player actively wants.

[daggaz]

I was only clarifying, Psieye.

Also, I laughed about the sock joke and now my girlfriend needs an explanation about what's so funny. Where do I even begin? (I am glad that crawl is pretty much the anti-thesis to the ur-mechanics of DF.)

[mrbobbyg]

I asked a similar question a year or so back. Read down for the stash mashing.


"Yes, early in the current tournament i made the mistake to forget the "never make a stash on Lair:1, make it in Lair:2".

Result, at some point i went back to my stash to get some objects to prepare for a branch and i found 4 jelly that had spawned on Lair:1 while i was away.

And obviously a then completely empty stash."


viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1748&p=18806&hilit=stash+mashed#p18806

[diviton]

Jellies can spawn on Lair:1? o_0

I've always made my stash on Lair:1 and never had a problem, but if this is true, I'm going to stop immediately.

[XuaXua]

Jellies can spawn on Lair:1? o_0

No, though there is a jelly vault that can appear on L:1.

The jellies he refers to came down the stairs from D. They don't go from D to L:1 then to L:2, so your stash is safe on L:2.

[Psieye]

Jellies can spawn on Lair:1? o_0

No, though there is a jelly vault that can appear on L:1.

The jellies he refers to came down the stairs from D. They don't go from D to L:1 then to L:2, so your stash is safe on L:2.

Yep, it's a very rare incident but I've experienced it once before. My master stash is always on Lair:2 now, though that's because I like organising my stash and spreading things out, as opposed to putting it all in one obscure corner tile.

[diviton]

Jellies can spawn on Lair:1? o_0

No, though there is a jelly vault that can appear on L:1.

The jellies he refers to came down the stairs from D. They don't go from D to L:1 then to L:2, so your stash is safe on L:2.

Yep, it's a very rare incident but I've experienced it once before. My master stash is always on Lair:2 now, though that's because I like organising my stash and spreading things out, as opposed to putting it all in one obscure corner tile.

Dang. Always something to learn with this game.

My stash used to be massive and completely unorganized taking up way too many tiles. Now I have a cluster of about 8-10 tiles. One tile with potions, one with scrolls, weapons, armour, food, etc.

[XuaXua]

Jellies can spawn on Lair:1? o_0

No, though there is a jelly vault that can appear on L:1.

The jellies he refers to came down the stairs from D. They don't go from D to L:1 then to L:2, so your stash is safe on L:2.

Yep, it's a very rare incident but I've experienced it once before. My master stash is always on Lair:2 now, though that's because I like organising my stash and spreading things out, as opposed to putting it all in one obscure corner tile.

The best place is to fully explore L1 and L2 including all stairs between, then travel to D outside lair, then auto-travel to L2, which brings you to the closest spot in L2 to D. That's where you place your stash. Mark it as a shortcut destination. Do it all in one spot so you can use a single inventory screen to manage it, as items do organize themselves, but take things out of the stash that you'll never use to avoid clutter.

It would be cool if rings and items SORTED in inventory, so all rings of the same type are ordered.

[Stormfox]

Adding monster awareness of items would also open up the possibility of players baiting monsters with items.

If I'm remembering correctly, there's already limited handling of monster item pickup so that hostiles don't pick up weapons that the player has dropped. This is to keep you from, say, dropping a sweet triple sword as Mennas is chasing you so that he has to take off his shield to equip it.

Of course, giving Mennas a triple sword to replace his eudemon blade and shield may just be trading one problem for another, if you let him get close enough.

[battaile]

It would be cool if rings and items SORTED in inventory, so all rings of the same type are ordered.

Yeah, this would be cool. I end up burning more time than I care to admit switching inventory slots around to make it look right because OCD.

[dassem]

Yep, it's a very rare incident but I've experienced it once before. My master stash is always on Lair:2 now, though that's because I like organising my stash and spreading things out, as opposed to putting it all in one obscure corner tile.

Dang. Always something to learn with this game.

My stash used to be massive and completely unorganized taking up way too many tiles. Now I have a cluster of about 8-10 tiles. One tile with potions, one with scrolls, weapons, armour, food, etc.

That's what I like to do. It's a huge waste of time, but so organized.
Current game I am forcing myself to try a 1 tile stash. Already I am starting to find that more convenient.
Next step will be not to stash, or just to stash something like spellbooks. (That's because I like to have all the spell options visible in one location if I don't know where to go next - is there a better option?)

I suspect the first answer is the best: We are stashing too much and should stop it, but as with all bad habits, that's hard.

[FDru]

After the earlygame, the main danger to a stash is humanoids coming over and picking your stuff up. Monsters don't "see and walk to" items they can use (or slimeify), they are only aware of items that are directly at their feet. Corners are unlikely places for monsters to path to. Thus, corners are good places to make stashes.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Wandering seems completely random to me... as in monsters aren't given a waypoint and asked to make their way to it (which would make it more likely for them to skip a corner). If a monster is given a random direction to wander to per turn, then a corner might be a worse place for an item than a square with 8 open spaces around it.

Also, in my experience, leaving something nice on the ground anywhere tends to spawn something nasty to pick it up and kill me with. I have a habit of picking up any branded weapons and ammunition and dropping them in the temple these days.

A ring of sustenance can make the trip back to your Lair Stash a lot easier. It still takes a while though.

It can make the trip faster if you use every stair case at least once, so that way the autoexplore will find the fastest route.

It's worth mentioning that one-way hatches can be useful for this as well, as long as they've been used. As a bonus, you can peek through them on the map screen to see what's on the other side. I suppose there is a small downside in that you can't retreat back through them if you run into something nasty... but it's certainly worth doing on the upper floors.

[Psieye]

After the earlygame, the main danger to a stash is humanoids coming over and picking your stuff up. Monsters don't "see and walk to" items they can use (or slimeify), they are only aware of items that are directly at their feet. Corners are unlikely places for monsters to path to. Thus, corners are good places to make stashes.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Wandering seems completely random to me... as in monsters aren't given a waypoint and asked to make their way to it (which would make it more likely for them to skip a corner). If a monster is given a random direction to wander to per turn, then a corner might be a worse place for an item than a square with 8 open spaces around it.

Pick a better corner: one which random walk is unlikely to even get close to before the whole "there's less directions to go because walls are in the way" becomes a concern. The actual corner itself is exempt from this because once the monster is on the stash tile, you don't care what direction it goes afterwards.

I'd need to do source diving before I could confirm or deny on whether random walk is actually the mechanic used when monster behaviour is set to Wander. Nonetheless I haven't had a problem with monsters picking stuff up ever since I put stuff in corners. Not corridor bends, corners.

[njvack]

I don't want to feel like I'm playing Dwarf Fortress, convincing whole armies to die from bad positioning because I dropped "a sock".

But it was a legendary artifact sock, embroidered with pictures of cheese and menacing with spikes of emerald.

[Psieye]

I don't want to feel like I'm playing Dwarf Fortress, convincing whole armies to die from bad positioning because I dropped "a sock".

But it was a legendary artifact sock, embroidered with pictures of cheese and menacing with spikes of emerald.

It doesn't matter if it's a troll fur sock or these socks I had made, they will die for it. Incidentally I was trying to make something like this for those socks but they kept pinching them while I was making them so had to settle for less.

[njvack]

I would die for those socks. I haven't played DF in a while; how do you make an eldritch sock?

[Psieye]

Some modding was done to make a new metal named "eldritch". The full details.

[yogaFLAME]

Really though players create more problems for themselves than they solve by stashing. Drop stuff when you don't need to be carrying it, use ctrl-F.

[ZipZipskins]

It would be cool if rings and items SORTED in inventory, so all rings of the same type are ordered.

Yeah, this would be cool. I end up burning more time than I care to admit switching inventory slots around to make it look right because OCD.

I'm opposed to auto-sort. I don't want an algorithm messing up my letters!

[FDru]

Really though players create more problems for themselves than they solve by stashing. Drop stuff when you don't need to be carrying it, use ctrl-F.

Care to elaborate on that? Aside from one time I got a Potion of Cure Mutation broken, I've never felt like using a stash was creating a problem.

[Davion Fuxa]

More then likely you'll be running back and forth to your stash repeatedly when just running to wherever you left the item in the dungeon may take the same time - though this assumes you are only running back to your stash for one or two items.

[mrbobbyg]

It's the certainty though. Even if there's only a 1% chance my CMut pots will get mashed on the floor, it's worth it to me to stash them. If you're not playing for score, there's plenty of food to support even the most repetitive stasher.

[FDru]

If you're not playing for score, there's plenty of food to support even the most repetitive stasher.

Hah.

This one time, at Draconian camp, my Transmuter got sick off every single chunk and was hopeless in the lair without Blade Hands, which had a hunger cost of a billion #s no matter how much I leveled up Spellcasting (and only lasts like 10 turns to boot). Then he found a Staff of Energy and it didn't help one bit. There was also no food shops anywhere. After awhile I stopped returning to the stash for food and just carried it all with me. He had almost ran out completely before dying to something silly, but he would have surely starved anyway.

I imagine this is a rare occurrence but it was one of the most annoying things ever. I'm not sure if I had bad luck or if I should just never play a Transmuter again.

[yogaFLAME]

Really though players create more problems for themselves than they solve by stashing. Drop stuff when you don't need to be carrying it, use ctrl-F.

Care to elaborate on that? Aside from one time I got a Potion of Cure Mutation broken, I've never felt like using a stash was creating a problem.

It burns a lot of turns doing nothing. This can be something like a ration's worth of food round-trip, which can put a squeeze on resources. Anyone who's ever complained of running out of food almost certainly burned way too much stashing. More importantly, it burns piety, which is somewhere between mildly unfortunate to pretty bad, depending on god.

Then, since it burns those resources, players compensate by "batching" - you queue up stuff until you're carrying some critical amount, then do a stash dump. This exposes your stuff to consumable destruction during the batching. You will lose -fewer- resources by not stashing, counterintuitively. Seriously, try dropping every single cmut potion and scroll of recharging you get the instant you pick them up, and see over time how many aren't there when you go back for them.

[Sandman25]

Personally I disable autopickup for potion of Cure Mutation, scroll of enchant weapon X, scroll of enchant armour as soon as I identify them. Yes, I let them remain where they are until I need them.

[Psieye]

Personally I disable autopickup for potion of Cure Mutation, scroll of enchant weapon X, scroll of enchant armour as soon as I identify them. Yes, I let them remain where they are until I need them.

I throw them in a corner and pick them up when I'm making my next backtrack trip to the stash. I like being able to look at my organised stash from time to time, even though it has no real benefits whatsoever. Mind, until I clear the Vestibule, "the stash" tends to be split across maps (all with waypoints) as it's too inefficient lugging everything back to Lair:2.

[Sandman25]

I throw them in a corner and pick them up when I'm making my next backtrack trip to the stash. I like being able to look at my organised stash from time to time, even though it has no real benefits whatsoever. Mind, until I clear the Vestibule, "the stash" tends to be split across maps (all with waypoints) as it's too inefficient lugging everything back to Lair:2.

I am afraid of ice/fire monsters more than of jellies but I think picking them up and immediately throwing them to a corner is a better approach than mine. I suppose jellies don't search for items (similar to other monsters).

[BlackSheep]

This can be something like a ration's worth of food round-trip, which can put a squeeze on resources.

This is an exaggeration. You could make a 27 floor round trip with less than a ration on a standard hunger race.

[Sandman25]

Ration provides 5000 nutrition points, standard hunger rate is 3 per turn so ration allows about 1666 turns, that's about 64 moves on every floor (including stairs) if you travel from D27 to D1.