Wands: how to use?

[Sandman25]

I don't get it how to use minor wands like magic,frost, fire, paralyze etc.
Early game I have low Evo so these items are almost useless. Later I might have high Evo but monsters are much tougher also. If I can win without wands, I don't use wands. If I cannot win without wands, I don't fight and again don't use wands.

1) When I am a conjurer my spells deal more damage. When I am out of mp I should escape instead of hoping on a wand with low spell power.
2) When I am a melee guy I either retreat behind a corner or use javelins because they are not expendable (mulch rate is much less than 100% which we have for wand zaps).

Are wands useful to artificers mostly?

[nago]

I suppose you don't consider in your question wands like draining or fire, because they're useful in all the game even with 0 evo.

Anyway. "weaker" wands are mostly useful in the early game - and then they are very useful!
Flame, frost etc are very good to soften an early dangerous foo with low defence/hp (e.g. ogre or adder/scorpion, ...) either if you're a melee guy or he's outside of your spell range. Furthermore, as a mage character, a weak wand can save your life, if you run out of mp and you need still to dispatch some not-popcorn enemies (a not so uncommon scenario in early game).

Later on, their usefulness decades swiftly - but when playing a melee character I still regularly use it in Lair to kill fleeing fast monster who could return later in a bad situation and even later there are very dangerous enemies who have very low hp/ac/ev (giant eyeball, boggart, ...), so even a wand of magic dart can be a lifesaver in the remote case you don't have better wands at disposal.

On the other hand, paralysis, confusion etc are great even with low or 0 evo, because there're are very nasty uniques or enemies with relative low MR. Have you ever tried them on enemies like sonja, nessos, red wasp and so on? Often it's the best way to disable and kill them without any trouble!

If I cannot win without wands, I don't fight and again don't use wands.

A lot of fights you cannot win without consumables, can became easy using them. Wands are (semi)consumables.

[Sandman25]

A lot of fights you cannot win without consumables, can became easy using them. Wands are (semi)consumables.

I think this is my main problem - I do not start fighting if I can't win without wands. I should rely more on wands and should be less greedy with them

I have just reread wands of fire/draining in wiki and you are completely right, their damage is very respectable even with 0 evo.

[Psieye]

Wait you include Paralyse in 'minor wand'? My MiPr depended on them to kill the 5 or so hydrae encountered. Yes, some Evo pumping was involved but if you find the right toolset (in this case: 3 paralyse wands, invis ring) then it can be worth it.

In the earlygame, minor debuff wands like Slow or Confuse are useful for neutralising some big threats (e.g. Ogre, Orc Warrior) even with 0 Evo. Minor conj wands can be useful situationally: "oh shit, a jelly and it'd take ages to kite it with stones"; "I'm a FE and a crimson imp is pestering me. Oh I have a frost wand"; "I'm an IE who hasn't yet got Throw Icicle and an ice beast shows up. Oh look, flame wand"; "oh shit, a giant spore. I absolutely cannot afford to miss on this turn but I don't have any confidence in my throwing accuracy. Oh hey, wand of magic darts."

Be very greedy with these minor wands as after you finish Lair, you will have no use for them at all. They are (semi)consumables that effectively won't exist after a certain point in the game, so what's the point in saving them up? Same with potion of speed - you will eventually have Haste, why bother keeping potions when you can probably rely on a Wand of Hasting for the rare occasion you need Haste without spending mp?

[Sandman25]

Wait you include Paralyse in 'minor wand'? My MiPr depended on them to kill the 5 or so hydrae encountered. Yes, some Evo pumping was involved but if you find the right toolset (in this case: 3 paralyse wands, invis ring) then it can be worth it.

You had a MiPr here so you could always use pacifying if paralyze did not work. I am thinking this way: would I regret I tried paralyze instead of plain javelins if my MiBe dies to the hydra? Yes, definately I will. I am ok with Spriggan using this tactics since he can run away from Hydra if hydra resists but I am too scared to use it for normal speed species. Perhaps I should try using it on Hydra and above mentioned unique's like Sonja and Nessos while standing near upstairs. I had really serios troubles with Nessos recently.

[Psieye]

Wait you include Paralyse in 'minor wand'? My MiPr depended on them to kill the 5 or so hydrae encountered. Yes, some Evo pumping was involved but if you find the right toolset (in this case: 3 paralyse wands, invis ring) then it can be worth it.

You had a MiPr here so you could always use pacifying if paralyze did not work. I am thinking this way: would I regret I tried paralyze instead of plain javelins if my MiBe dies to the hydra? Yes, definately I will. I am ok with Spriggan using this tactics since he can run away from Hydra if hydra resists but I am too scared to use it for normal speed species. Perhaps I should try using it on Hydra and above mentioned unique's like Sonja and Nessos while standing near upstairs. I had really serios troubles with Nessos recently.

I was a MiPr, not a MiHe. Zin doesn't help you fight hydra, Ely does. Actually that's technically incorrect: he lets me run away easily but he doesn't help me kill it.

Read the actual CiP to see when I determined it was time to try paralyse. It wasn't "as soon as I met the first hydra". Incidentally, a hydra is a lot harder to apply debuffs on than Sonja - check her MR. And don't forget this is all entirely situational: you may not have enough javelins (or any), you may not have found enough things to justify training Evo, etc etc. My point is: I had some Evo because I found loot that made it work for me and then I made sure the situation was favourable for me (without training any more Evo) to use paralyse wands to solve the hydra problem.

[BountyHunterSAx]

I sympathize with the OP's sentiment about l'esser' wands being less helpful. In fact, in many of my wizard runs I'll straight up refuse to carry confuse, paralyze, enslave, polymorph, etc. etc.

But there's three things. One, they're still very situationally useful. That 'situation' being when my core-spells don't have a mana-efficient answer to a problem I encounter. So. . .ice beasts, spiny frogs, etc. Second, if you're not playing an optimal race-class combination (ie: aptitude of '0' or worse) in your core spellcasting skills, then odds are good that those 'niche' situations where you need a wand to complete your answer will come up more and more often. And finally, my MiBe's find even the smallest wand way more efficient -untrained- to kill a retreating enemy rather than javelins or darts; and they use lesser (and greater) wands religiously against jellies or other mobs that have to be killed at range .

-AHMAD

[BlackSheep]

I am thinking this way: would I regret I tried paralyze instead of plain javelins if my MiBe dies to the hydra? Yes, definately I will. I am ok with Spriggan using this tactics since he can run away from Hydra if hydra resists but I am too scared to use it for normal speed species. Perhaps I should try using it on Hydra and above mentioned unique's like Sonja and Nessos while standing near upstairs. I had really serios troubles with Nessos recently.

Javelins are not nearly as common as minor wands during the period where minor wands are still useful. A more reasonable comparison would be between a wand of frost and, say, darts and daggers. Additionally, you pointed out that you don't fight if you can't win without wands, but what about fights that you can't win even with wands? Wands of confusion, slow and enslavement can be great escape tools when you lack other means of creating distance between yourself and a foe.

Flame, frost etc are very good to soften an early dangerous foo...

'Foo' is not a synonym for 'monster'. It's a placeholder most commonly used to represent a set of things that all have part of their names in common. (e.g. potion of gain foo to represent potions of gain str, dex and int; or summon foo to represent the spells with summon in the name) For sets that have a common identifier like monsters or wands, we just refer to them as monsters or wands.

[Davion Fuxa]

I answered your post backwards, hope you don't mind.

Are wands useful to artificers mostly?

No. You can make use of Wands on any Character, you just need to experience and know-how to understand when they are useful and when they are not. Any character or build can benefit from wands at some point in the game usually.

1) When I am a conjurer my spells deal more damage. When I am out of mp I should escape instead of hoping on a wand with low spell power.
2) When I am a melee guy I either retreat behind a corner or use javelins because they are not expendable (mulch rate is much less than 100% which we have for wand zaps).

On characters that uses MP, the purpose of the wand is that you can use wands to save your mana or for when your current spells are not palpable. On a character with important ammunition like Javelins (or Arrows, or Bolts, or Sling Bullets) the purpose for using the wand over it is to conserve that ammunition for as long as possible. There are considerations to take in whenever you commit to certain actions, though this is learned as you play the game more and refine your playstyle.

I don't get it how to use minor wands like magic,frost, fire, paralyze etc.
Early game I have low Evo so these items are almost useless. Later I might have high Evo but monsters are much tougher also. If I can win without wands, I don't use wands. If I cannot win without wands, I don't fight and again don't use wands.

Some wands are extremely situational, and are really only useful when monsters are weak to them - Slow, Confuse, Paralyze, and Enslavement as examples require monsters with low MR to be effective. Other wands can diversify your playstyle - Bolt of Fire, Bolt of Cold, Bolt of Draining, Bolt of Lightning as examples match different Bolt Elementals, on a Fire Elementalist you might carry some Bolt of Cold, and on an Earth Elementalist you might carry any number of them.

The key here is to understand the value of how the wands can be useful and incorporate them into your playstyle. Wands won't always be useful of course as well - Throw Frost is eventually going to get replaced in your Ice Elementalists spell list for the same reasons you won't be using the Wand of Frost: it will be too weak. However, they can play a roll if you understand how they work.

[Davion Fuxa]

accidnet'y quoted instead of edited.

[Sandman25]

It looks like the problem is not with the lesser wands but with me as player. I have just finished a MiBe game which had as one of its main goals to gain some experience with wands but to my shame I have never used even Wand of Haste and Wand of Teleportation which I had in my inventory for a long time. The former was replaced by either berserk or potions of speed while the latter was replaced by spells of teleportation.
Thanks to everyone who replied! I believe now I have better understanding of wands which will use in my next games.

[Grimm]

V

I've been meaning to ask: what's changed recently in wand operation? It used to be V, choose wand, then move the targetting reticule with the direction keys. Now choosing the wand doesn't work and I have to hit V again, and the reticule is extremely difficult to aim with the direction keys. One key will move the reticule in different directions at different times.

[Sandman25]

Thank you for the tips, guys! My level 11 CeHu has just killed Nessos at D11 with Wand of Confusion. I had no Blink spell and met him in a large open room so running away was not an option I believe. I tried the wand twice but it was resisted. At this time I was down to 25 HP so I had to use a potion of curing to remove poison and get to 38 HP. Luckily next attempt was not resisted and I started shooting arrows at confused Nessos. Unfortunately a yak came into view but I didn't want to retreat hoping to finish Nessos. Confused Nessos hit yak and I continued shooting arrows at Nessos killing yak who stepped in front of Nessos.

[siggboy]

Some clarification on the difference between "minor" and "major" wands would be appreciated. Obviously no such distinction is explicitely made in the game. I assume it's related to the power of the contained spell (and accordingly mid- to late-game utility).

Edit: If this is mainly about Cold/Fire vs. Flame/Frost then I guess I know what you mean.

[Davion Fuxa]

Major wands tend to be Wand of Digging, Wand of Disintegration, Wand of Hasting, Wand of Heal Wounds, and Wand of Teleportation. These Wands have use and importance throughout the game be it Early, Mid, End, or Late.

Minor wands tend to be stuff like Wand of Random Effects, Wand of Magic Darts, Wand of Flame, and Wand of Frost. These Wands have practically useful only in the Early Game and and quickly outgrown for the player outside of it.

Outside of these Wands, you basically have Wands of Status Effects, and Wands of Bolt Spells. The usefulness of these Wands is more related to what species and background was chosen initially, how the character set up his skills, and what Wands specifically were found. They can be useful in the Early and Mid Game, or be made to remain useful all the way up to the End Game if you so choose.

[KoboldLord]

There's no explicit official distinction between major and minor wands, but if you look at the dictionary definition of those words you should be able to figure out what people mean. Minor wands are the ones that you leave on the floor because they are no longer worth spending a turn to evoke. At the beginning of the game, all wands are major; even flame or frost can kill a potentially game-ending D2-D6 unique in maybe four hits. The the third Ziggurat cleared, there will only be a handful still worth the inventory slot required. The point at which a wand changes from major to minor depends on your particular character.

[siggboy]

OK, that makes sense.

Related to wands, how do you usually go about IDing them? I normally just cast them on myself, dropping amulets and scrolls/potions beforehand, which most of the time works. If "nothing happens", then it's either digging or random from my experience. Is there a better way to approach this?

[Davion Fuxa]

Even just zapping an injured low-MR monster without a wall should identify digging - or at least the player should understand that the only way nothing would happen in such an instance is if it was digging.

[Davion Fuxa]

Except it could also be a wand of random effects that chose digging.

Duly noted.

[Sandman25]

Be sure to use it against very low HD monsters, I polymorphed a rat (HD 1) into giant centipede (HD2) in my last game. So it looks like HD can increase after polymorph.

[nago]

Except it could also be a wand of random effects that chose digging.

A little clarification because someone couldn't know: random effect are id when zapped - there's also the line "you feel this wand is unreliable" - so you would know if you had just zapped a wand of digging or a random one.

Be sure to use it against very low HD monsters, I polymorphed a rat (HD 1) into giant centipede (HD2) in my last game. So it looks like HD can increase after polymorph.

Polymorph tends to choose monster with same, or slightly higher, hd of the target. While it's true that is unwise to polymorph very high hd yet weak monster (e.g. slugs), there are a lot of monster with mid-hd which are very good target for polymorph other. Incidentally, the wiki page on polymorph has a good example list of which monsters are good target and which not.

And please note that also polymorphing low-hd creatures can rarely lead to hilarious situation, like that time I transformed a worker ant on D:2 (or maybe 3?) in a boggart with the last charge of my wand.

[Sandman25]

Polymorph tends to choose monster with same, or slightly higher, hd of the target. While it's true that is unwise to polymorph very high hd yet weak monster (e.g. slugs), there are a lot of monster with mid-hd which are very good target for polymorph other. Incidentally, the wiki page on polymorph has a good example list of which monsters are good target and which not.

And please note that also polymorphing low-hd creatures can rarely lead to hilarious situation, like that time I transformed a worker ant on D:2 (or maybe 3?) in a boggart with the last charge of my wand.

I meant situation when you are evoking an unknown wand against a monster trying to ID the wand.

Boggart is HD 2 also, it looks like one can die to a boggart trying to polymorph the weakest possible monster

[Psieye]

Except it could also be a wand of random effects that chose digging.

A little clarification because someone couldn't know: random effect are id when zapped - there's also the line "you feel this wand is unreliable" - so you would know if you had just zapped a wand of digging or a random one.

And further clarification just in case: random effect won't ID if you get "nothing appears to happen" on use. Hence why treating it like a dig+conj+heal wand when zap-ID'ing.

[byrel]

Personally, I've come to ID wand using two steps (in the same safe place where I was probably IDing some scrolls):
Zap at wall (IDs conjurations, etc.)
Zap at me (IDs hexes and reverse hexes (healing, etc.))

I think that pretty much handles it. You do have to be careful to be in a safe place, lest you should be treeified by a wand of polymorph (or confused by enslavement, or whatever.)
Am I nuts, or taking some insane chance I can't see? It seems so much easier than hunting down a quokka to test them on.

[Psieye]

Personally, I've come to ID wand using two steps (in the same safe place where I was probably IDing some scrolls):
Zap at wall (IDs conjurations, etc.)
Zap at me (IDs hexes and reverse hexes (healing, etc.))

I think that pretty much handles it. You do have to be careful to be in a safe place, lest you should be treeified by a wand of polymorph (or confused by enslavement, or whatever.)
Am I nuts, or taking some insane chance I can't see? It seems so much easier than hunting down a quokka to test them on.

This is fine now with bad forms merged into trunk but it used to be that polymorph zapping yourself was a recipe for Bad Mutations that could be game crippling. Also, I can't remember what happens if you have high MR and you zap a hex wand on yourself.

[Galefury]

Old poly wands didn't work on yourself.

byrel: wasting two charges is worse than wasting one charge (or even zero charges if you use a scroll). That's pretty much the only problem with your method.

[byrel]

byrel: wasting two charges is worse than wasting one charge (or even zero charges if you use a scroll). That's pretty much the only problem with your method.

Ah! I've got it! Just skip step 1! (You actually could if you were tanky enough, and didn't mind a bit of draining...)

Hex wands always succeed on yourself. You don't resist. The only difference is enslavement gives confusion, instead of making you a loyal friend of yourself. If it kept you from getting bored and killing yourself, it wouldn't fit with crawl very well.

[rchandra]

I'm willing to waste the second charge while I have a lot of unIDed wands. When I have fewer, I'm more likely to just zap at myself first or scroll-ID.

[siggboy]

Ah! I've got it! Just skip step 1! (You actually could if you were tanky enough, and didn't mind a bit of draining...)

OK, now we're back at square one, because that's what I suggested before somebody started the "zap monster against wall" discussion.

I'm satisfied, though. "Zap self" is good enough. "Zap monster against wall" is overkill-slash-minmaxing.

[byrel]

Well it does depend on what race you are, when self-zapping is safe. Most attack wands (Fire, cold, draining) have a max damage of 24 at 0 evo. (Or about 36 at 6 Evo, if you're raising it a bit for power) A spriggan won't exceed 24 HP for several levels. ..

[siggboy]

Well it does depend on what race you are, when self-zapping is safe. Most attack wands (Fire, cold, draining) have a max damage of 24 at 0 evo. (Or about 36 at 6 Evo, if you're raising it a bit for power) A spriggan won't exceed 24 HP for several levels. ..

The list of characters I've wasted early on in the most stupid ways imaginable gets longer and longer, but not ever have I lost a single life due to casting unknown wands on myself. Those maximum damage values you give seem to be very theoretical. (Actually I wish the wands would be so awesome at 0 Evo, but then again maybe not, because monsters love them, too).

[byrel]

Well, the max value of 24 is easiest to hit with the wand of draining, at 0.077% chance. But 20 is the max for Lightning, which has a completely flat distribution (IE 1 in 20.)

But I'm never going to take a 0.077% chance of dying when I can potentially waste a charge of a buff/hex wand and burn it against a wall (thus actually identifying digging; one of the most useful wands) first. After I have 25 HP, I might consider it.

[Sandman25]

I use Wand of Polymorth vs Jelly, Wand of Flame vs Ice Beast. So no wand is useless for me anymore.

[siggboy]

I use Wand of Polymorth vs Jelly, Wand of Flame vs Ice Beast. So no wand is useless for me anymore.

I especially like Polymorph vs. Oklob Plant.

[joerjoe]

Be sure to use it against very low HD monsters, I polymorphed a rat (HD 1) into giant centipede (HD2) in my last game. So it looks like HD can increase after polymorph.

This is really a good advice for a beginner player. Thnx.

_______________________________
Fantasy weapons are often named so simply as an aspect of psychological warfare.

[adozu]

a kobold with ok evo and stab with a paralyze wand can even stab titanic slime creatures for massive exp

[cerebovssquire]

Another decent target are orc warriors, since they are very dangerous (high HP, great equipment), but have very low HD (4). This is more of a last-ditch solution though (as in "this will be hard to escape", not as in "I'm at 5 HP"), as there are potentially dangerous targets and orc warriors are generally easy to escape, but it is good to keep it mind. Usually it will work out.

[adozu]

personally i prefer enslave wands on those, it's fun watching the rest of the orc pack murdered by their champion.

[cerebovssquire]

Sure, enslave is great against orc warriors (and decent against knights, even at low Evocations skill) - but I usually don't have many wands to choose from when orc warriors start showing up. I'm just saying that if you have polymorph and are in a precarious position vs an orc warrior, it's not the worst thing to have.

[Davion Fuxa]

Unless you have a bunch of Enslavement wands, I would generally keep them in reserve for nasty uniques. One of the safest ways of avoiding a death at the hands of Grinder or Sonja for instance is to charm them, then either cart them up a staircase to another level or run away entirely.

[some12fat2move]

I especially like Polymorph vs. Oklob Plant.

I especially like Polymorph vs 5 HD enemies

[daggaz]

I'll take a wandering mushroom over an acid-spitting oklob plant any day of the week.