Geryon's corpse fell in the water


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Snake Sneak

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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 02:22

Geryon's corpse fell in the water

So my level 26 red draconian air elementalist of Ash didn't want to fight Geryon and Murray and their various minions all at once, so I would pop down into the middle of the vestibule, turn on Tornado, swirl away in whatever direction there were the fewest mobs, refresh Tornado once, and then scamper back upstairs to heal up. It took maybe a dozen or so rounds of this to kill off most of the assorted loose monsters, and then I concentrated on Geryon, working on keeping him four squares away from me, and both of us away from Murray and his summoned mobs. Tornado, Orb Orb Tornado, and I was bringing his health down pretty steadily: and then he swung wide on the wind out over the deep water at the entrance to Cocytus, and died with a big splash. Ooops! :oops:

After that it was pretty straightforward to finish off Murray and his minions, and I paused to consider the situation.

I sprayed poison gas over all the water, ignited it, and created a LOT of steam. I don't suppose I can evaporate it all away, but I thought just possibly I can bring the water down to shallow? Hello, what's this? I can see the treasure there in the water! It worked! Except it didn't. The treasure icon shows, but I think it is because I follow Ash and so Ash is showing me where the hidden loot is, in the steam clouds. I can fly over the specified square, but when I do it says there is nothing there.

I suppose I could switch to Fedhas to gain the ability to evaporate water, though I don't think there are enough bodies left in the game to gain enough piety to do it. (I've cleared D27, Shoals, Swamp, Vault, and all lesser branches.)

Is there any other way to recover the horn? Or do I just shrug and aim for a 3 runer?

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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 02:26

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

would apportation work?
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 02:30

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

no.
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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 02:45

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

Pretty bizarre. :P
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 02:54

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

What about Ice Form?

EDIT: Just tried it out in Wizmode, didn't seem to work...
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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 08:30

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

Ice form floats over the water - only merfolk can get items in deep water (or maybe also octpodes and grey draconians, I don't remember)

I believe at this point you're forced to forget hell runes' - you'd need Fedhas to get the Horn, but as you have already cleared living branches it would be difficult to get enough piety to sunshine. At most, if you really want to try and you're lucky, crypt may have enough zombies and necrophages to get it - nevertheless, that would mean to suffer temporary Ash's wrath and later Fedhas' one, because there's no point to take Fedhas for extended and leave Ash, whose wrath is the worst in the game.
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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 09:22

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

If we're talking about stupidly unrealistic technicalities, Abyss is a source of infrequent but unlimited zombies. Naw, it would have been Hell that grants ample zombies but that's cut off now.

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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 09:38

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

You could try converting to Kiku, go to Pan to scum for piety (AFAIK Kiku gives piety for demon kills.)
Then go to Fedhas altar, use all Kiku piety on getting corpse gifts. Convert to Fedhas, then sacrificing all the corpses should give you enough piety to use Sunshine.

Then you would have to go through Hell with wrath of both Kiku and Ash, so probably not worth it.

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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 09:41

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

This sounds like the sort of thing that would have already been accounted for - don't all his corpse gifts instantly rot away if you abandon him or something?

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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 09:47

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

I don't know if it has been changed recently, but it used to work. I had a character who dropped the swamp rune in deep water through a failed apportation but was able to get it by doing what I described above. That was in 0.10 though so it might not work any more.

Edit: Might have been 0.9
Last edited by Jeremiah on Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 10:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 10:39

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

You can always eventually get enough fedhas piety to get to sunlight (assuming you are a race that can worship fedhas): fedhas piety doesn't decay. Hell effects can make zombies and some things with corpses, or you can scum abyss, or pan has zigs.
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 13:53

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

Farming Hell for Fedhas piety is tricky when it's Geryon's Horn that fell in the water ;)

Abyss and zigs are your best bet. There's also triggering all the OOD timers you can on existing levels. Maybe you'll get enough XP to appease Ash? Bring sustenance :/

I'd honestly file "you can lose the horn in deep water or lava" as a bug on Mantis and see what the devs say. IMO, it shouldn't be possible to lock yourself out of branches.
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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 14:06

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

This problem is already recognised by knowledge bots (or was added today after this thread) so one would think that they are aware (no guarantees though, of course).

And I think crate was replying to Jeremiah about the swamp rune mishap.
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 14:41

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

Yeah; however, neither the bots nor the Tavern are any substitute for a bug tracker. I don't see a bug about this in Mantis, closed or not.

I guess that as he used to fly, people have known about this trick for a long time. But I get the vague sense that the devs are less likely to consider the current behavior "OK" than they used to -- for example, you can no longer lock yourself out of Zot. But I can't speak for them.
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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 15:14

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

Yeah, I was going to suggest that someone would make a thread about this in the GD section (whether this is known or not and desirable or not) but you are probably right.
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 15:53

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

It would sure be nice if there were a way in-game to handle situations like this. Either more terrain manipulation options (a spell or item that would dry up water, for example) or a transfiguration spell that would turn you into something that could swim (perhaps one for water and one for lava).

It is very frustrating to have this happen in a game. Although at least the runes can't be dropped in deep water anymore. :)
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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 16:27

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

Styro wrote:It would sure be nice if there were a way in-game to handle situations like this. Either more terrain manipulation options (a spell or item that would dry up water, for example) or a transfiguration spell that would turn you into something that could swim (perhaps one for water and one for lava).

It is very frustrating to have this happen in a game. Although at least the runes can't be dropped in deep water anymore. :)


It might just be easier to make it so that the Horn of Geryon can't be immersed in anything. Say, making it teleport to the nearest empty floor if it happens to fall into deep water or lava, or something.

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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 17:02

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

Or make it float on water, so flight/ice form/orc jesus etc will suffice to retrieve it.
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 17:08

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

Or the lava and water could be walled off until you blow the horn.
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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 17:17

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

This whole ordeal is very amusing but lets not forget it is just the icing on the "it shouldn't have been anywhere this hard to clear vestibule with tornado" cake, the horn falling into deep water is just the game playing along with his Benny Hill antics.

Also: just get rid of the horn of Geryon thing already and open the gates when Geryon dies, the end
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 17:26

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

ebarrett wrote:Also: just get rid of the horn of Geryon thing already and open the gates when Geryon dies, the end

This.
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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 17:44

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

but, but, how will we open the troves??

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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 17:51

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

BlackSheep wrote:but, but, how will we open the troves??


The Sword of Jihad is always a solid choice if it happens to generate: http://crawl.develz.org/info/inline.php ... sure_trove
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 29th January 2013, 17:58

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

Mankeli wrote:
BlackSheep wrote:but, but, how will we open the troves??


The Sword of Jihad is always a solid choice if it happens to generate: http://crawl.develz.org/info/inline.php ... sure_trove


  Code:
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 31st January 2013, 16:05

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

some12fat2move wrote:would apportation work?


No, and I think the message it gives is misleading, making one think if one had high enough Apportation, it would.

It used to work; I think it was a poor call to stop it from working.

Ice Form won't do it either because you float, you aren't a merfolk.

You can maybe draw cards and get a merfolk mercenary, and he could walk over it and pick it up (no he wouldn't, it's not something he'd pick up) except they removed the functionality for you to actually improve your mercenaries.

So... no. Evaporating water would be a pretty cool spell. The Fedhas sunshine thing the others suggest is your only chance, I guess. And apparently Fedhas isn't a good extended endgame god, so...
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Post Thursday, 31st January 2013, 16:09

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

Evaporating water would be a lame spell. Make a parting of the seas spell, and if you don't get out of the way before the duration ends, the deep water returns on top of you. (yes I just want people to die to it)
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Barkeep

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Post Thursday, 31st January 2013, 16:17

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

ebarrett's idea is really the right one. Geryon's horn is the only item in Crawl that works the way it does and I cannot imagine any gameplay-relevant reason for it to exist. If you can kill Geryon, you can kill the rest of the stuff in the Vestibule. If you have any business in any of the Hell branches, you can kill Geryon. The only thing that can happen is you can lose the horn in a silly tornado accident.

And the fact that this mechanic hasn't been introduced anywhere else presents an unclued puzzle to newcomers -- how are you supposed to know that you're supposed to evoke the horn? Yes, you can probably make the inductive leap (or would probably pick up the horn to see what it does), but there's absolutely no reason for this. Crawl is not an adventure game.
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Post Thursday, 31st January 2013, 17:26

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

njvack wrote:Or the lava and water could be walled off until you blow the horn.

ebarrett wrote:just get rid of the horn of Geryon thing already and open the gates when Geryon dies

These would be perfectly viable solutions, except neither would solve the problem Jeremiah brought up about runes falling in deep water too. IMO runes should float on water and lava, and the horn should either be removed or behave the same way.
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Barkeep

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Post Thursday, 31st January 2013, 17:35

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

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Post Thursday, 31st January 2013, 17:55

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

Doesn't tornado?

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Post Thursday, 31st January 2013, 18:04

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

Tornado doesn't move items.

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Post Thursday, 31st January 2013, 18:06

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

Oh right...duh...it was by dumping Geryon in the water that this happened...*facepalm at self*

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Post Thursday, 31st January 2013, 18:26

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

Fedhas rain won't create deep water under items or monsters either. The Water card can, though, drown monsters and submerge runes or the Orb in deep water.

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Post Thursday, 31st January 2013, 18:31

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

That's pretty odd..you would expect the two means of water creation to be consistent in this respect.

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Post Thursday, 31st January 2013, 18:50

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

The card code is a lot older than Fedhas.

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Post Thursday, 31st January 2013, 20:11

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

Would be cool if you could cast 'dig' on floor tiles like digging channels in dwarf fortress, so that water can flow (and become deep or shallow, make waterfalls etc). I guess it would be useless except for immersion and when you tornado Geryon into deep water. :)

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Post Thursday, 31st January 2013, 20:31

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

Could the horn float? I can't say whether that means it sits on top of water and anyone can get it with a potion of flight, or that the horn moves to the nearest non-water space, washing up on the shore. Several uniques have interesting death effects, and this could be Geryon's.
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Post Friday, 1st February 2013, 00:14

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

yes, lets come up with something needlessly complicated to prevent something that's also needlessly complicated from being itself prevented by some chain of events that is ALSO needlessly complicated
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Barkeep

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Post Friday, 1st February 2013, 00:21

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

Floating items in the game don't exist. This is absolutely not the problem that screams "the devs need to implement floating items."

If I had to guess, I'd bet the horn is a reflection of the invocation ritual in Nethack...

ANYHOW I'm gonna start a GDD thread about this. Mackerel, you're hosed unless you get a bunch of Fedhas piety.
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Post Sunday, 3rd February 2013, 07:40

Re: Geryon's corpse fell in the water

I just noticed in my current game that mosters will pick up the horn and tote it around. (A crimson imp in this case.) They don't seem to blow it, but it opens up more possibilities for horn destruction, even if the lava/water was walled off till Geryon's dead.
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